civic
Well-known member
does he save you , regenerate you, give you the Holy Spirit , give you the new birth ?
Humility And Calvinism?
- Thread starter Rockson
- Start date
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Free willers: "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” Therefore faith is a work.
But that's not what it says. It says this, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
civic
Well-known member
the strawmans comes again.
like Jesus and the apostles taught is something man does in response to God.
I will keep quoting these scriptures until you admit they are all true.
You deny every single one of them with your theology.Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
7- conversion
8- repentance
9- justification
10- sanctification
11- glorification
hope this helps !!!
Notice there was no answer to my question.the strawmans comes again.
like Jesus and the apostles taught is something man does in response to God.
I will keep quoting these scriptures until you admit they are all true.
Jesus never once taught that faith was given , granted or a gift .He said " YOUR FAITH " has saved and healed you. Not the faith I gave you has saved you, healed you.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( not the faith I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith (not the faith I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( not the faith I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith(not the faith I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
FAITH PRECEDES REGENERATION
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
7- conversion
8- repentance
9- justification
10- sanctification
11- glorification
hope this helps !!!
If it's not a work or a gift in your system then what is it?
civic
Well-known member
loaded question fallacy alert
its called the free will choice every human being has the ability to do. every person saved or unsaved practices belief/faith on a daily basis.
only one trapped in a dogma would deny this is true.
next
Followed up by a presupposition by the presupposition police.
civic
Well-known member
followed by the facts every human being experiences on a daily basis.
Presupposes. Do you know every last person?
civic
Well-known member
evasion again.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I should have added, if faith is a work, then grace is not grace.
civic
Well-known member
Calvinists are the only group in Christianity that make the false claim Faith is a work
Which means no one was saved by faith prior to the Calvinist invention of faith being a work. Since tulip did not exist prior to the reformation
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Wrong. There are whole sections of threads trying to prove that Jesus' answer "This is the work of God" means "this is the work required by God". The argument is based on, "The people were asking what work they should do!!!" So the answer Jesus gave MUST mean the work required is to believe on (have faith in) Him. That's what you free willers have been arguing ad-nauseum. And if the work required is to believe on Him whom He has sent, then faith is a work. You free-willers backed yourselves into that corner all on your own.
civic
Well-known member
Yep God requires faith for one to be saved
I will let this Calvinist theologian correct you below
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Yep God requires faith for one to be saved
I will let this Calvinist theologian correct you below
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.
I've told you repeatedly I couldn't care less what some commentary or theologian says. The fact is, you free-willers agree with this Calvinist and say that faith is a work. And if it's a work, then grace is no longer grace.
You free-willers really did paint yourself into a corner on this. You can't interpret "This is the work of God" the way it is plainly worded, because that would be to admit that it takes a work of God for someone to have faith. And that takes free will completely out of the equation. So you MUST call it a work. You have no choice.
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You ignore context
John 6:27–30 (ESV) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you?
Jesus tells them they must do something v27
The Jews ask what must they do to do the works required by God
Jesus tells them they must believe that is the work God requires
The Jews ask for a sign that they may believe
They understood Jesus was telling them they must believe
further v 28 defines the works of god as the work they were requirted to do
Paul defines work differently as that which earns merit
Romans 4:4–6 (ESV) — 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
civic
Well-known member
He is a Calvinist not a free willer rofl
It’s you who is the one cornered using one isolated verse that is in opposition to the rest of the Bible with your biased interpretation
Yes his interpretation is clearly anti-contextualHe is a Calvinist not a free willer rofl
It’s you who is the one cornered using one isolated verse that is in opposition to the rest of the Bible with your biased interpretation
John 6:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
The works of God in context are the works God requires
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
And there you have it. You are saying faith is a work, which means grace is not grace.
