Humility And Calvinism?

Rom 7 speaks about our Christian present circumstances.
I must strongly disagree with this. Like Civic, I see Rom 7 as man’s attempt and failure to achieve salvation by means of keeping the law. There is no logical reason to conclude that man is dead to and set free sin and its bondage in Rom 6 and 8, but in bondage to sin in Rom 7.


Doug
 
I must strongly disagree with this. Like Civic, I see Rom 7 as man’s attempt and failure to achieve salvation by means of keeping the law. There is no logical reason to conclude that man is dead to and set free sin and its bondage in Rom 6 and 8, but in bondage to sin in Rom 7.


Doug
Yes otherwise we have Paul contradicting himself in chapters 6 and 8 which are the bookends which infer the opposite of 6 if he is speaking as a Christian believer and not a Jew under the law which Paul says he was early on in Romans 6.
 
Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.


The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).


Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.


4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.


Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.


The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.


If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way. Thomas Schreiner

hope this helps !!!
 
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom. 2:13.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: Rom. 3:20.

What's happening is that those 2 passages are referring to two totally different target groups.

I have heard of this defense before. But Paul's own words in Rom. 2 dispel it, in my view.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation "of the righteous judgment of God";

6 Who will render to every man according to "his deeds":

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and "do not obey the truth", but "obey unrighteousness", indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that "doeth evil", of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man "that worketh good", to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 "For there is no respect of persons with God".

So Synergy, there is no "targeting different groups". God's instruction in Righteousness, His Righteous Judgment is shown to "Every Man". Sodom knew about them. Rehab knew about them. Cornelious knew about them. According to God's Inspired Word, "Every man" is judged by their "works". God is teaching men through the Apostles that those who "Deny themselves" and "Yield themselves" servants to God "as obedient children", are justified, Jew or Gentile. And those who reject God's Judgments and instruction are rejected. Offering money, or the Blood of an innocent being, or casting out devils in Christ's Name, justifies no flesh that "works iniquity".

So the disobedient Jew or the disobedient Gentile are under the exact same instruction. As Paul teaches in his other letters.

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth "walk not" as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, "which after God" is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And what do you end up with here? "Men that are his (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God hath before ordained that we (Jew and Gentile) should walk in them.

For there are not 2 groups of people in the Christ Jesus "of the Bible".

The target group of your first passage is pagan Gentiles who knew nothing about the true God and yet performed lawful deeds against all odds.

Where are these Pagan's that didn't know anything about the true God in Romans 2? There were Gentiles who didn't have the Law, as did the Jews. But didn't they hear about God even picking up the crumbs that fell off the masters tables? Did they write God's law on their own hearts?

Please try to think about Scriptures apart from this world's religious influences. Paul just told you that God is no respecter of persons, and how Jews and Gentiles are judged the same. I have heard this "two groups" stuff taught in this world's religions, but it doesn't align with the rest of the teaching of Paul, in my view. There is no salvation for men who "Don't know anything about true God" in scriptures.

Christ will take that into consideration when God will judge the secrets of men. God's fairness brilliantly shines through here.

I believe God reveals Himself to Every Man, one way or another. But this argument doesn't even pertain to men in America, or most of the world, as we all have access to the righteousness of God, and His Wrath against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men. So for this country, there is no excuse.
The target group of your second passage is referring to Jews who had all the privileges of knowing God and yet fell into legalism.

I have heard of this term "Legalism" bandied about like a weapon, by this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness". Paul said of the mainstream religion of his time, who professed to know God, "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Titus 1: They profess that they "know God"; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I assume that when you use the word "Legalism", you are speaking to religious men who claim to know God, but in their actions and deeds they deny Him and refuse to humble themselves to Him in obedience, or as Paul teaches, refuses to "Walk in" the "Good works" God before ordained that His People should walk in them.

There is no excuse for them.
We certainly agree on that.
I'll read through the rest of your comments and comment on them when I get some time hopefully later on tonight.

Please Take your time and thank you. But please consider that with most preachers promoting this world's religious sects, their flesh drives them to defend and justify the religious philosophy they have adopted and are now promoting, regardless of what the scriptures actually say.

Take your time and seek the truth of the Scriptures and resist the temptation to justify yourself. I know firsthand how men deceive themselves to preserve their own adopted religious traditions and doctrines, from my own journey coming out of them. God's Truth will humiliate and break us at first. There is an exodus out of this world's religions for every true believer. But what remains is a New Man worthy of saving. At least this is what Paul teaches we Hope For.

I look forward to further discussions.
 
There is no sacrifice for willful sin. And David, as King of Israel, who through God, gained many victories over the enemies of God's people, was not an immature son, in my view. This was an example "for our admonition", as Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 10.

And I hear this world's religious men invoking Davids sin all the time. That is all they seem to remember about him. But they never mention that because of this sin, David lost his own son. I have children, I can't even imagine what that was like and hope I never do. His entire kingdom was taken from him. He was humiliated in front of the world, the Jews, the Pagans around them. But the worse part of his sin, according to God, was that he gave the enemies of the Lord occasion to blaspheme God's Holy Name. And to this day, religious men who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord", use David's sin as an excuse or justification for their willful sin.

And yet, after all this, David remained faithful to God, sorrowing to repentance, and from that point on in Scriptures, there was never ONE mention of this event. Not one. Instead, here is how God spoke about David,

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

So I never invoke this story to justify or excuse sin, willful or not. If God can forgive and forget, a nobody like me should be able to do the same.

Talk about getting it wrong....

There is no greater sacrifice to give than Jesus Christ. The BEST has already been given. There remains not further sacrifice for sin.

I never said that David wasn't judged. He was. So are you. The idea that when YOU sin... it isn't "willful sin" is utterly preposterous. Some men's sins are before us all and some men's sins follow. There is nothing that shall not be known.

There is forgiveness for saints as well as sinners. David said his sin was ever before him. He lost Absalom. Adam and Eve both lost Cain. Rebekah lost her sons and daughters and refused to be comforted for there were no hope for them.....

I'm not excusing sin. I am saying that YOU are not above sin. YOU willfully sin. We all do. We should forever praise our Lord for His unending forgiveness.

We are not complete. Our flesh is weak. Our flesh grows weaker the older we get and the frailer we become. Wait till you get old and someone has to wipe your backside for you. I can assure you, I'll not judge you for what you do in those moments. It is called empathy.
 
I have heard of this defense before. But Paul's own words in Rom. 2 dispel it, in my view.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation "of the righteous judgment of God";

6 Who will render to every man according to "his deeds":

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and "do not obey the truth", but "obey unrighteousness", indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that "doeth evil", of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man "that worketh good", to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 "For there is no respect of persons with God".

So Synergy, there is no "targeting different groups". God's instruction in Righteousness, His Righteous Judgment is shown to "Every Man". Sodom knew about them. Rehab knew about them. Cornelious knew about them. According to God's Inspired Word, "Every man" is judged by their "works". God is teaching men through the Apostles that those who "Deny themselves" and "Yield themselves" servants to God "as obedient children", are justified, Jew or Gentile. And those who reject God's Judgments and instruction are rejected. Offering money, or the Blood of an innocent being, or casting out devils in Christ's Name, justifies no flesh that "works iniquity".

So the disobedient Jew or the disobedient Gentile are under the exact same instruction. As Paul teaches in his other letters.

Eph. 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth "walk not" as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, "which after God" is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And what do you end up with here? "Men that are his (God's) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus "unto good works", which God hath before ordained that we (Jew and Gentile) should walk in them.

For there are not 2 groups of people in the Christ Jesus "of the Bible".



Where are these Pagan's that didn't know anything about the true God in Romans 2? There were Gentiles who didn't have the Law, as did the Jews. But didn't they hear about God even picking up the crumbs that fell off the masters tables? Did they write God's law on their own hearts?

Please try to think about Scriptures apart from this world's religious influences. Paul just told you that God is no respecter of persons, and how Jews and Gentiles are judged the same. I have heard this "two groups" stuff taught in this world's religions, but it doesn't align with the rest of the teaching of Paul, in my view. There is no salvation for men who "Don't know anything about true God" in scriptures.



I believe God reveals Himself to Every Man, one way or another. But this argument doesn't even pertain to men in America, or most of the world, as we all have access to the righteousness of God, and His Wrath against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men. So for this country, there is no excuse.


I have heard of this term "Legalism" bandied about like a weapon, by this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness". Paul said of the mainstream religion of his time, who professed to know God, "For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

Titus 1: They profess that they "know God"; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

I assume that when you use the word "Legalism", you are speaking to religious men who claim to know God, but in their actions and deeds they deny Him and refuse to humble themselves to Him in obedience, or as Paul teaches, refuses to "Walk in" the "Good works" God before ordained that His People should walk in them.


We certainly agree on that.


Please Take your time and thank you. But please consider that with most preachers promoting this world's religious sects, their flesh drives them to defend and justify the religious philosophy they have adopted and are now promoting, regardless of what the scriptures actually say.

Take your time and seek the truth of the Scriptures and resist the temptation to justify yourself. I know firsthand how men deceive themselves to preserve their own adopted religious traditions and doctrines, from my own journey coming out of them. God's Truth will humiliate and break us at first. There is an exodus out of this world's religions for every true believer. But what remains is a New Man worthy of saving. At least this is what Paul teaches we Hope For.

I look forward to further discussions.
So you affirm replacement theology, good to know.
 
I must strongly disagree with this. Like Civic, I see Rom 7 as man’s attempt and failure to achieve salvation by means of keeping the law.

You see everything through the prism of "God's Laws only bring death to those who would "Yield themselves" servants to obey Him". I think Synergy knows there is a disconnect somewhere between that philosophy, and what Paul is actually teaching, but just can't place the finger on it. Just as I did 30 years ago, because what you promote, has been promoted by this world's religions since before either of us was born. Even in the garden of Eden, the religious voice in it promoted the same philosophy. The Law brings death, but disobedience doesn't. And if men seek God's Truth, instead of self-justification, they will find it, in my belief.

I will ask you some questions and see if you can answer them.

When did Paul see God's Law, and sin revived? Before Annanias, or after?

When did Paul do that which he didn't want to do, before HE "Served the Law of God with his mind", or after?

When did Paul "walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh", before he served the Law of God with his mind, or after?

There is no logical reason to conclude that man is dead to and set free sin and its bondage in Rom 6 and 8, but in bondage to sin in Rom 7.

Doug

I don't think Synergy was concluding what you imply here. Paul was set free from sin in Romans 7, just read what he says.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk "not after the flesh", but after the Spirit.

Serving the Law of God with my mind, causes me to;

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members "as instruments" of righteousness unto God.

If you were to answer the questions I asked honestly, it would help you understand Paul's teaching in Romans 7.

But if your mission is only to promote, defend and justify the religious philosophy "God's Law only brings death". "Obedience to God's Law is a false gospel". "God lied to Abraham's Children". "God placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of those men who trusted Him."

Then that is the only thing you will see. Paul explained why men promote such foolishness in Romans 1.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This is evident in this world's religions since Eve was deceived by a voice who also "Professed to know God".

These are the teaching of religious men who have "become vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools."

We don't have to adopt their philosophies, seductive as they can be. We don't have to Judge God in such wickedness. We can be like Paul and "Serve the Law of God with our mind", and "Yield ourselves unto God" and become "Servants of God's Righteousness".

There is no money in this "Way of the Lord". No "praise of men". And this world self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" will ridicule and try to turn you away from this God, and His Son who made it possible to "put on" the New Man, "Which after God is created in Righteousness and true Holiness.

But it takes Faith in God. Not judgments against God.
 
I agree that there was no wall of separation.

I'm sorry, it seems I may not have explained myself properly. My point was that there most certainly "WAS a Wall of Separation". And the Gentiles suffered from it. But this Wall of Separation was not created by God or His Law. And God, wasn't calling those repentant Gentiles "the uncircumcised", and rendering them as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

The corrupt Priests who had taken over the Temple of God are the ones who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, whose law of commandments contained in ordinances, caused the Separation. These are the commandments He abolished in His Flesh, as He Himself taught before HE became a Man. "for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people".
 
When did Paul see God's Law, and sin revived? Before Annanias, or after?
Ananias is irrelevant to the question, but Paul’s is referring to his childhood when he first became cognizant of what the law said and meant. It is the point that we understand objectively the difference between right and wrong. When we know, for example, what stealing is and understand the ramifications of carrying out the act of stealing we become culpable for our actions. So, for argument’s sake, let’s say 3 years old for a child to really grasp this concept.

When did Paul do that which he didn't want to do, before HE "Served the Law of God with his mind", or after?
After the point of reaching culpability. Again, roughly 3 years old give or take.

When did Paul "walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh", before he served the Law of God with his mind, or after?
This is obvious.

Doug
 
Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.


The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).


Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, "but if her husband dies", she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

But the Jews were not married to God or God's Law. Zacharias was, Simeon was, Anna was. There is no instruction anywhere in Scriptures teaching that Zacharias, Simeon and Anna had to be married to another. And if their husband was God, when does God die?

The Jews were married to their religion, their religious traditions. The entire Bible teaches that their traditions "Transgressed God's Law". Their old husband has to die to them, to be free from the Law of their husband, the "Jews religion" as Paul calls them.

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; "but if the husband be dead", she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Remember, Romans 6 ended with;

22 But now being made free from sin, and become "servants to God", ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are you then teaching that being "Servants to God" in Romans 6, they must now be married to another in Romans 7? But how can that be, since God doesn't, and cannot die?

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law (of thy husband) by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit "unto God".

Wasn't Zacharias an example of this? Having turned away from the Pharisees religion and became a "Servant to God".

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

So Zacharias was also a "servant of God", unlike Saul who walked in the "Jews Religion" which made him a child of the devil. As a Pharisees, Paul never received the Holy Spirit, because, as Peter testifies, "And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him."

So while Saul was married to the Jews Religion, he persecuted Jesus and the Church of God.

But Zacharias, being married to God,

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for "he hath visited and redeemed his people", 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

Wasn't Zacharias then already married to "Another", even to Him that was raised from the Dead, that he should bring forth fruit "Unto God"?? Just as those men in Romans 6, who "Yielded themselves to God" and their members as instruments of righteousness unto God, who being made free from Sin, became the "Servants of God"?

Why would these men need to be married to another, since their husband can never die?
 
Ananias is irrelevant to the question, but Paul’s is referring to his childhood when he first became cognizant of what the law said and meant.
It is the point that we understand objectively the difference between right and wrong. When we know, for example, what stealing is and understand the ramifications of carrying out the act of stealing we become culpable for our actions. So, for argument’s sake, let’s say 3 years old for a child to really grasp this concept.


After the point of reaching culpability. Again, roughly 3 years old give or take.

This is obvious.

Doug

So then in your religion, Ananias means nothing, the scales that fell off of Saul's eyes meant nothing, Jesus Word's defining the Law of the Pharisees mean nothing. And Paul serving the law of God in his mind means nothing.

Only that God's Law only brings death to those who would "Yield themselves" to it.

OK, that's it for me.
 
So you affirm replacement theology, good to know.

I affirm what is written in scriptures Civic. A Jew has always been those who do the works of Abraham from the heart. those who, as Isaiah says; "that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant" Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Even God's Law that you despise, teach that anyone, regardless of the DNA they were born with, who turns to the God and Father of the Lord's Christ in obedience and respect, "shall be unto you as one born among you, (A Jew) and thou shalt love him as thyself".

Deceivers, whose mission it is to turn men away from God's instruction, want to demean and belittle God by changing His Glory into an image like unto corruptible man, and promote a false god that is a respecter of persons, one who judges men according to the DNA they were born with.

But this god is a false god, just as the golden calf, or Mithra.

So no JOG, there is nothing to replace. A Jew is now, and has always been, and will always be those who "do the works of Abraham".
 
Paul was set free from sin in Romans 7, just read what he says.
Rom 7: 21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Rom 6:20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Rom 8:1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, b God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. c And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Question: How can you be free from the law of sin and death and able to keep the righteous requirements of the law fully and yet, be in bondage as a prisoner of sin and unable to do the good that you want to do at the same time?


Doug
 
So then in your religion, Ananias means nothing, the scales that fell off of Saul's eyes meant nothing, Jesus Word's defining the Law of the Pharisees mean nothing. And Paul serving the law of God in his mind means nothing.
I didn’t say anything like that…deal with what I actually say and not your strawman idea of what you want me to be saying.

Only that God's Law only brings death to those who would "Yield themselves" to it.
Didn’t say that either! I’ll say it one more time: The law was, and is, good and holy, but the sinful nature within us reacts contrary to that which is good and holy and causes us to likewise rebel against that good and holy law at its beckoned call.

We are all, prior to Christ, bound to the control of the sinful nature and cannot break that bond. This doesn’t mean we always sin at every juncture, but when the sinful nature tells us, or perhaps better, deceives us to believe its lies, to do what we know we shouldn’t do.

We only need to sin once to be guilty before God, and every single one of us has done it from our earliest years.

I have never stated, implied, or suggested that we are incapable of doing good or keeping the law, but only that we cannot, before Christ or under our own power, keep it perfectly all the time.

OK, that's it for me.
I hope that by this you mean that you are going to stop misrepresenting my meanings and posts.


Doug
 
Talk about getting it wrong....

There is no greater sacrifice to give than Jesus Christ. The BEST has already been given. There remains not further sacrifice for sin.

Heb. 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

There is a meaning to this Scripture. What does it mean to fall away?
I never said that David wasn't judged.

David was severely punished. A fact that most religious men don't talk about. It seemed important to me to point this out.

He was. So are you. The idea that when YOU sin... it isn't "willful sin" is utterly preposterous.

I am more interested in Biblical Truth, and what the scriptures actually say. Your religious opinions, while precious to you, and you may feel the need to justify them, and I can understand what you believe, but when God's Word is in a man's mind, he doesn't say, "I see God's Law but I'm going to transgress it anyway. When I say "willful sin", this is my understanding of it. Even David didn't know "who" Nathan was talking about at first. God's Law says;

Lev. 4: 22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty; 23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

So David may have become deceived, blinded, careless, but I don't believe he was guilty of "Willful" sin based on what the Scriptures say about him, and certainly God didn't accuse him of "willful sin" either, as I posted God's Word regarding David to Solomon.

You are free to judge David as you wish. I choose to defer to God's Judgment of him.

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

Am I looking at this wrong? Maybe. Nevertheless, I can't go wrong trusting God, in my view.

Some men's sins are before us all and some men's sins follow. There is nothing that shall not be known.

I agree.

There is forgiveness for saints as well as sinners. David said his sin was ever before him.
Yes, but they weren't ever before God. "And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."

Ps. 103: 12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

That is my hope as well, for my sins that are ever before me.

He lost Absalom.

Absolom was not the son of David from Bathsheba that died as punishment for his sin. Absalom died because of his own choices, he killed Amnon.


Adam and Eve both lost Cain.

While this is true, Cain was lost by the things HE chose to do, he killed Abel.

Rebekah lost her sons and daughters and refused to be comforted for there were no hope for them.....

Not because of anything Rebekah did.

I'm not excusing sin. I am saying that YOU are not above sin. YOU willfully sin. We all do.

I'm not sure where I ever even implied that I am "above sin". But it seems we have a different understanding of "willful sin".

We should forever praise our Lord for His unending forgiveness.

Agreed as well.
We are not complete. Our flesh is weak. Our flesh grows weaker the older we get and the frailer we become. Wait till you get old and someone has to wipe your backside for you. I can assure you, I'll not judge you for what you do in those moments. It is called empathy.

Our flesh is nothing, it's the Spirit that counts, in my view. Our flesh is born to die. This is undeniable Truth. As long as I have breath, I am walking in the way of the Lord. If I mess up, I get up and move forward, forgetting those things that are past, and moving ahead as I press for the prize of the high calling of God which was in Christ Jesus. I'm not there yet, but that is the goal as Jesus commanded.

I've been broken, lost my family, humiliated, chastised and near death twice in my exodus. I look at the Way of the Lord as a way of Life, a Way to "Live By" as Jesus and His Father instructs. Although I have suffered loss, I have also received blessing to great and too many to count. I wouldn't trade any of it for the religious system of this world.

It doesn't matter to me now, after all I have endured, if I need a bed pan again, or a catheter again, or a wheelchair again.

All that is a vanity. As a wise man, inspired by the Spirit of the God and Father of the Lord's Christ told me;

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

I'm not ashamed of the Way of the Lord, the Gospel of Christ.

In closing, I hope you might consider something that I learned about time. We have a past, a future and a present. or as I like to call it, a "Now".

In God's creation, I cannot go back into the past, and I cannot go forward into the future.

The only place God gave me "ANY" power at all is right "now". In His Love and Tender Mercy and long suffering, I have many "Nows" throughout the day in which to exhibit the power to choose that HE gave me. It would be foolish to spend all my "Nows" lamenting about a past I cannot change. And it would also be foolish to spend all my "Nows" worrying about a future I cannot know.

So Today, "NOW", when I hear God's Word, I will not harden my heart. I will not worry about tomorrow, for "Sufficient unto the "NOW is the evil thereof." Right "NOW", I will Love the Lord my God. In the "NOW" I will Love my neighbor as myself. In the "NOW" I will be a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and not a hearer only. In the "Now" I will hunger thirst for righteousness. "Now" I will Seek First the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness. NOW I will put on the Armor of god. "NOW I will "put un" the NEW Man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And the Lord's Christ has made all these "Nows" possible.
 
I must strongly disagree with this. Like Civic, I see Rom 7 as man’s attempt and failure to achieve salvation by means of keeping the law. There is no logical reason to conclude that man is dead to and set free sin and its bondage in Rom 6 and 8, but in bondage to sin in Rom 7.


Doug
In Rom 6 our union with Christ has set us free not to sin. In Rom 7, Paul realizes that he still has a propensity to sin in his members, and in Rom 8 he describes the solution of sin which is our abiding in the Spirit. Therefore, there is a fluidity of Paul's thought pattern from one chapter to another.
 

You didn't have to quote it. I already know the verse. Do you think you're the only one that knows how to read here?

There is a meaning to this Scripture. What does it mean to fall away?

I'm not going to let you "bloviate" on this as if your actually mounting a defense of your claims. You're not.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Kingdom of God isn't for tasters. It is for drinkers. There are many that "taste" of God yet never follow through in repentance. Repentance is a two street. God must change His mind about the sinner.

You're appealing to tasters. Not drinkers.
 
Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.


The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).


Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.


4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.


14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.


21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.


A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.


Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.


The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.


If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way. Thomas Schreiner

hope this helps !!!
Paul continuosly presents himself, undeniably a Christian, as the subject of Rom 7:14-24. The solution is verse 25, all in the present tense for Paul. I've somewhere heard about Weslyan Sanctification perfection. I'm not sure if I termed the phrase right. Would that be a factor here in your interpretation?

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
 
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So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

What we often fail to recognize in the book of Romans is that Paul was simply "wetting the appetite" of those at Rome. As such, there are often seemingly opposed states of fact being made from one thought to the next in the middle of Paul's letter to Rome. Paul is stating facts with very little commentary to reconcile one thought completely with the other. He later elaborated upon such thoughts when he visited the believers in Rome upon his visit.

The same is true of the letters to the Thessalonians and Corinth.

It is both true that we have the Spirit of God that empowers us to overcome sin AND we are still living in the fleshly body that is weak and sinful in an of itself.

We are incomplete. Immature. Once "born again" we are "carnal babies" in Christ. I've known 60 year old carnal babies in Christ. Very few ever mature to the point of being able to control their flesh. Even with those that grow to the point of maturity, we never get entirely past sin.

Just like our flesh, In Christ, we start childish, we grow into maturity, and then suffer later in our lives as we age. Our minds began to forget. Our minds begin to suffer. At times, our minds often become incapable of even remembering God......

Some might do good to remember....

"take heed lest you fall".
 
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You didn't have to quote it. I already know the verse. Do you think you're the only one that knows how to read here?



I'm not going to let you "bloviate" on this as if your actually mounting a defense of your claims. You're not.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Kingdom of God isn't for tasters. It is for drinkers. There are many that "taste" of God yet never follow through in repentance. Repentance is a two street. God must change His mind about the sinner.

You're appealing to tasters. Not drinkers.
I’m going to have to disagree with you for several reasons:

1) Scripture doesn’t define taste and drink with this differentiation. When God says “taste and see that the Lord is good” he wasn’t seeking for us to have a taste test and receive a coupon for a complete meal! Jesus said we had to both eat/taste and drink his flesh and blood to have life.

Taste and drink are parallel analogies for experiencing the grace of God in a genuine way.

2) “Being made partakes of the Holy Spirit” is not a happenstance event. The human participant in this is passive; we are “made partakers”, which means God is acting upon us, giving us the Holy Spirit.

3) One cannot fall from a non-relational standing with someone. I can’t be divorced if I’ve never been married; can’t break-up with someone I’m not dating.

4) You cannot be renewed to a repentance you haven’t once had, or a relationship that you have never been in.


Doug
 
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