He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[360watt]

The old man, the man dead in sin, goes into the water and there is separated from sin and brought back to life in Christ, and arises from the water a new creation, washed white and blemish free, and clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God (Eph 5:26-26, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

Baptism (from the Greek baptizo (verb) and baptima (noun) means immersion. There is no need to qualify it with "full immersion", because it is not baptism without full immersion (that is like saying "wet water").

1 Cor 12 is not about the local congregation. If one is part of the local Church, then they are part of the global Church, and if one is part of the global Church then they should be welcomed into the local Church freely. We do not have to be rebaptized if we change our membership from one local congregation of the Church to another. It is the global Church that we enter when we are baptized, because that is when we go from lost to saved, dead to alive, stained to pure, etc. Only those who have been born again (which happens during water baptism) are saved, and all those who are saved are part of the global Church.

Yes, we must first believe in Jesus in order to be saved, but belief (intellectual assent) alone does not save. Rom 10:9-10 is clear that a verbal confession (that must also be public (Matt 10:32) must come before salvation is received because the confession RESULTS IN receiving salvation. Repentance is also required before salvation is received because Acts 3:19 says that repentance must be done SO THAT your sins may be washed away. Baptism is also required before salvation is received (salvation being received during baptism) as we are told in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.

The supposed 'global church'..

Does not assemble.

A congregation assembles.

Has no doctrine.

A congregation teaches through its leaders.

Can be unified.

A global church has no unity.

A congregation is visible.

A global church cannot be seen visibly as one entity.

Paul called the church (congregation) at Corinth.. 'ye are the body of Christ'

The church of Mathew 16:18.. is the same that is in Matthew 18. And Mathew 18 its a congregation that can be spoken to.


Paul persecuted 'the church of God' ..that was none other than the congregation at Jerusalem.

You dont get baptised again to join another church but are baptized as a pre requisite to join any of God's churches.

Saved, baptised..then you can get accepted for membership into a local NT church.

All redeemed obviously is an entity in itself..and that is in the Kingdom and Family of God. But all redeemed is not 'the church'.

 

[Doug Brents]

The supposed 'global church'..

Does not assemble.

A congregation assembles.

Has no doctrine.

A congregation teaches through its leaders.

Can be unified.

A global church has no unity.

A congregation is visible.

A global church cannot be seen visibly as one entity.

Paul called the church (congregation) at Corinth.. 'ye are the body of Christ'

The church of Mathew 16:18.. is the same that is in Matthew 18. And Mathew 18 its a congregation that can be spoken to.

Jesus built only one Church. And if the Church in Corinth is that Church, then the rest of us who are not part of that Church are out of luck. But the Church at Corinth is not the only Church. It is just a local congregation (a small piece of the whole); the Church is broken up into many congregations as we see exemplified in 1 Cor 16:19 among other places. And those local congregations are fully "the Church" just as if they were the only congregation of the Church.

Paul persecuted 'the church of God' ..that was none other than the congregation at Jerusalem.

No, Paul persecuted the Church, in Jerusalem and all over that area (there were many individual meeting places in Jerusalem and each was a part of the global Church), and he would have persecuted them in Damascus if he had not been stopped by Jesus on the road.

You dont get baptised again to join another church but are baptized as a pre requisite to join any of God's churches.

He doesn't have "churches". He died for only one Church, and each location where the Gospel is taught is part of that Church.

Saved, baptised..then you can get accepted for membership into a local NT church.

All redeemed obviously is an entity in itself..and that is in the Kingdom and Family of God. But all redeemed is not 'the church'.

The Church is the Kingdom is the family of God is the body of Christ is the saints, is the redeemed; all of these terms all mean the same thing. When any of these terms is used, it refers to the whole group that is the bride of Christ.

 

[360watt]

Jesus built only one Church. And if the Church in Corinth is that Church, then the rest of us who are not part of that Church are out of luck. But the Church at Corinth is not the only Church. It is just a local congregation (a small piece of the whole); the Church is broken up into many congregations as we see exemplified in 1 Cor 16:19 among other places. And those local congregations are fully "the Church" just as if they were the only congregation of the Church.

No, Paul persecuted the Church, in Jerusalem and all over that area (there were many individual meeting places in Jerusalem and each was a part of the global Church), and he would have persecuted them in Damascus if he had not been stopped by Jesus on the road.

He doesn't have "churches". He died for only one Church, and each location where the Gospel is taught is part of that Church.

The Church is the Kingdom is the family of God is the body of Christ is the saints, is the redeemed; all of these terms all mean the same thing. When any of these terms is used, it refers to the whole group that is the bride of Christ.

Have a look at this:

"The Churches of God" (1 Thess 2:14)

We have not attempted to be exhaustive, but simply to name what we believe the N.T. teaches as being the things which are fundamental in the constitution of "the churches of God."

awpink.org

There are also other commentators I can refer to.

'there is one body' .. In Ephesians 4..yes... one body AT Ephesus... just as there was one body at Corinth, one at Phillipi, one at Antioch etc..

'body' as in congregation, assembly..not body as in a disconnected mass everywhere.

But yeah.. this isnt the main point of the thread.

 

[Doug Brents]

'there is one body' .. In Ephesians 4..yes... one body AT Ephesus... just as there was one body at Corinth, one at Phillipi, one at Antioch etc..

There is only one body of believers, and some of them met at Ephesus, and some met at Corinth, and some met in Phillipi, but it was still all the same body. Jesus does not have multiple bodies, nor did He die for multiple "churches". He died for the one Church.

But yeah.. this isnt the main point of the thread.

Yes, back to the point we were discussing, you did not respond to the rest of what was said in post 1060.

 

[360watt]

There is only one body of believers, and some of them met at Ephesus, and some met at Corinth, and some met in Phillipi, but it was still all the same body. Jesus does not have multiple bodies, nor did He die for multiple "churches". He died for the one Church.

Yes, back to the point we were discussing, you did not respond to the rest of what was said in post 1060.

Yes, so there is the part of that post in saying someone must verbally confess..

Well that isnt taking into account the person who is mute.

In Romans 10:9-10..The confession by mouth is declaring what God had already done for them inwardly through the power of His Spirit.

Its not the mouth moving that led to salvation but the change of mind, heart..before confession..before baptism.

 

[360watt]

this is a good video on this

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, so there is the part of that post in saying someone must verbally confess..

Well that isnt taking into account the person who is mute.

In Romans 10:9-10..The confession by mouth is declaring what God had already done for them inwardly through the power of His Spirit.

Its not the mouth moving that led to salvation but the change of mind, heart..before confession..before baptism.

Your comment contradicts what the Scripture says.

Rom 10:9-10 is clear that confession RESULTS IN receiving salvation. That means that the confession MUST come before salvation is received. Confession is not "declaring what God had already done for them inwardly", because nothing happens inwardly until the condition of verbal, public confession is met. Just as Jesus said, If you confess me before men THEN I will confess you before the Father. But if you do not confess Him then He will not confess you. The confession must come first.

 

[360watt]

Your comment contradicts what the Scripture says.

Rom 10:9-10 is clear that confession RESULTS IN receiving salvation. That means that the confession MUST come before salvation is received. Confession is not "declaring what God had already done for them inwardly", because nothing happens inwardly until the condition of verbal, public confession is met. Just as Jesus said, If you confess me before men THEN I will confess you before the Father. But if you do not confess Him then He will not confess you. The confession must come first.

There is a lot of context around this that is missing. The 'then I will confess you before the Father'.. has a different context to receiving eternal life.

A person who is mute can only do an inward belief. It's not the movement of the mouth... but what is going on inside between the believer and the Holy Spirit.

Confession is included in the Romans 10:9-10 verses, but what is the order of belief and confession? What is the emphasis on?

Because most other places in scripture it is on the belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Not on the outward behaviour.

 

[David Koberstein]

A contradiction in sripture?

No. The opposite of Mark 16:16 is not true. I.e. 'He that is believes and is not baptised is not saved'

The book of John is about assuring believers have eternal life and doesn't mention water baptism much at all.
The book of Romans is about justification by faith in Christ alone and doesn't mention water baptism alot.

So Mark 16:16 need to be put alongside the verses in these books, and not held on it's own.

Same goes for Acts 2:38. It doesn't standalone.

Eternal salvation is, led by Jesus, believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have everlasting life.

Water baptism is as representation/symbol of this happening. As I typed before-- being baptised 'for' the remission of sins, is being baptised for something already happened. Like having a pill 'for' the cold.

Anyway.. I know this has been done to death, but seems popular now for people to think baptism saves eternally. The only kind of salvation it is related to is having a 'salvaged life'.. becoming a faithful believer after eternal salvation. It isn't hooked to eternal salvation. It isn't guaranteed to happen for a believer either.

A question about baptism

Is baptism necessary to be saved? And the answer that question is no, it is not. Now, if someone were to ask me an entirely different question, and that is, should a believer be baptized? The answer is a strong affirmation. Yes, he should. Because baptism testifies of our salvation experience...

player.lightcast.com

 

[Doug Brents]

There is a lot of context around this that is missing. The 'then I will confess you before the Father'.. has a different context to receiving eternal life.

Jesus confessing us before the Father is salvation. If Jesus denies us before the Father, then we will be kicked out with the goats into torment. And Paul is very clear that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord "with the mouth" comes before (because it "RESULTS IN") receiving salvation.

A person who is mute can only do an inward belief. It's not the movement of the mouth... but what is going on inside between the believer and the Holy Spirit.

The mute are typically able to "speak" through their hands, thus their "mouth" (their vehicle of speech) is their hands. You are correct, it is not the movement of the mouth that causes the removal of sin. It is the blood of Christ Jesus that does this. But He says that we do not receive washing in the blood until/unless we confess Jesus with our mouth.

Confession is included in the Romans 10:9-10 verses, but what is the order of belief and confession? What is the emphasis on?

It is obvious (I think) that one must believe before anything else can happen. But then we are told here that confession, coming after belief, results in receiving salvation, so salvation cannot occur just on account of belief. The reception of salvation requires belief AND the physical action of confession (in addition to repentance (Acts 3:19) and baptism (Acts 2:38).

Because most other places in scripture it is on the belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Not on the outward behaviour.

As has been pointed out before, all of Scripture is one complete work with no errors, contradictions, or conflicts. It is clear that John 3:16 only mentions belief as what is required for salvation. But then Rom 10:9-10 says both belief and confession must come before salvation is received. This is not a conflict. Both are required, we just have to understand that John 3:16 does not detail everything that is required; it just uses the blanket concept "belief" coming from the Greek "pistis" which means faith. Thus it is faith that is required, and other verses like Rom 10:9-10, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16 and other detail the specific actions of faith that are required.

 

[Gloria]

What we have here is "Waters of Chaos"
A concept where bodies of water are viewed as representative of disorder or chaos often symbolized by surging waters.

What we should have here is "The Didache"

A Christian rite or sacrament involving pouring or sprinkling water over the head or immersion in water; biblically associated with repentance and confession of sins; variously understood to sacramentally effect or symbolize purification, regeneration, and initiation into a faith community; variously performed on people of all ages from infants to those making professions of faith.

 

[Behold]

Romans is an epistle to saints that obeyed Acts 2:38. It is their mail.

@Truther ..what you wrote is nonsense, as everyone who became a Christian in Acts 2:38 was a JEW or a Jewish proselyte.

Paul, who is the "Apostle to the Gentiles", wrote Romans, and there is nothing in Romans that has anything to do with Acts 2:38

For example.. in Acts 2:38..... Peter is not water baptized, yet, He was given the "gift of Tongues"..


And what did He preach?
He preached this.....>>"You have slain your Messiah"...... (you jews).. and they said... "what must we do"..

So, He gives them the John the Baptist answer......"Repent and be water baptized"

Paul never teaches this........
Paul even stated that "Christ did not send me to Water Baptize".

Paul's Gospel is not "repent and get wet"............Paul's Gospel is .. "The preaching of the Cross... as "WE preach Christ CRUCIFIED".... "The preaching of the Cross is the POWER OF GOD>.. unto SALVATiON, for everyone who BELIEVES".

No water.
No works
No Law keeping
No 10 "commandments
No Acts 2:38

 

[360watt]

What we have here is "Waters of Chaos"
A concept where bodies of water are viewed as representative of disorder or chaos often symbolized by surging waters.

What we should have here is "The Didache"

A Christian rite or sacrament involving pouring or sprinkling water over the head or immersion in water; biblically associated with repentance and confession of sins; variously understood to sacramentally effect or symbolize purification, regeneration, and initiation into a faith community; variously performed on people of all ages from infants to those making professions of faith.

That may be the popular dictionary definition, but its not how the bible defines baptism.

*for believers only.. not infants
*by immersion...because it represents Jesus' death and resurrection. Death..person goes under the water .. person comes out.. resurrection.
*does not save eternally... because Jesus does that for someone before baptism.

The object of the saving faith is Jesus..not the water.

 

[360watt]

@Truther ..what you wrote is nonsense, as everyone who became a Christian in Acts 2:38 was a JEW or a Jewish proselyte.

Paul, who is the "Apostle to the Gentiles", wrote Romans, and there is nothing in Romans that has anything to do with Acts 2:38

For example.. in Acts 2:38..... Peter is not water baptized, yet, He was given the "gift of Tongues"..


And what did He preach?
He preached this.....>>"You have slain your Messiah"...... (you jews).. and they said... "what must we do"..

So, He gives them the John the Baptist answer......"Repent and be water baptized"

Paul never teaches this........
Paul even stated that "Christ did not send me to Water Baptize".

Paul's Gospel is not "repent and get wet"............Paul's Gospel is .. "The preaching of the Cross... as "WE preach Christ CRUCIFIED".... "The preaching of the Cross is the POWER OF GOD>.. unto SALVATiON, for everyone who BELIEVES".

No water.
No works
No Law keeping
No 10 "commandments
No Acts 2:38

I believe Acts 2:38 is applicable today..but that it is water baptism to symbolise what Jesus already has done to deliver some one from sin.

 

[Larry]

Does Water Baptism wash away our sin, Looks like it.

Acts 22:16, "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

But how does it wash away sin?

Not by actually washing away sin from the soul; but by expressing faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which leads to our justification.

‘Faith’ characterizes the justified person, not ‘works of the law’.

Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Ephesians 2:8-9

So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

 

[Rowan]

Water baptism as I'm sure we have heard many times is an outward display of an inward conversion.

Water baptism, according to the Bible, is a Christian practice that symbolizes the believer’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So water baptism serves as a public declaration of one’s faith in Jesus Christ, signifying a break with the old way of life and a commitment to walk in the newness of life found in Him.

It’s a powerful and symbolic act that signifies a spiritual rebirth and a profound transformation within the believer’s heart.

 

[Doug Brents]

Water baptism as I'm sure we have heard many times is an outward display of an inward conversion.

Water baptism, according to the Bible, is a Christian practice that symbolizes the believer’s identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

So water baptism serves as a public declaration of one’s faith in Jesus Christ, signifying a break with the old way of life and a commitment to walk in the newness of life found in Him.

It’s a powerful and symbolic act that signifies a spiritual rebirth and a profound transformation within the believer’s heart.

Please show us where any of that is found in Scripture.

 

[dwight92070]

@Truther ..what you wrote is nonsense, as everyone who became a Christian in Acts 2:38 was a JEW or a Jewish proselyte.

Paul, who is the "Apostle to the Gentiles", wrote Romans, and there is nothing in Romans that has anything to do with Acts 2:38

For example.. in Acts 2:38..... Peter is not water baptized, yet, He was given the "gift of Tongues"..


And what did He preach?
He preached this.....>>"You have slain your Messiah"...... (you jews).. and they said... "what must we do"..

So, He gives them the John the Baptist answer......"Repent and be water baptized"

Paul never teaches this........
Paul even stated that "Christ did not send me to Water Baptize".

Paul's Gospel is not "repent and get wet"............Paul's Gospel is .. "The preaching of the Cross... as "WE preach Christ CRUCIFIED".... "The preaching of the Cross is the POWER OF GOD>.. unto SALVATiON, for everyone who BELIEVES".

No water.
No works
No Law keeping
No 10 "commandments
No Acts 2:38

Peter WAS baptized in water. John 4:1-2 Obviously the twelve had to baptize each other in Jesus' name, because there was no one else to do it, since Jesus Himself did not do any baptisms. These verses make it clear that all disciples of Jesus were baptized in Jesus' name long before the Acts 2 Day of Pentecost. You actually think that Jesus would tell his apostles to baptize new believers in water, when they themselves were not baptized? That's insane.
Just as ridiculous as if Jesus commanded us to be baptized, yet He Himself never got baptized.

 

[dwight92070]

By the way, if the gospels are part of the Old Covenant, then why did they not get put in the Old Testament section of our Bible??

 

[Doug Brents]

By the way, if the gospels are part of the Old Covenant, then why did they not get put in the Old Testament section of our Bible??

LOL, they occurred during the time when the Old Covenant was still in force, but depict the transition from Old to New. Jesus is the whole point of the Bible, and His life, while occurring during the OT time, was the beginning of the NT, the NT starting at His death. Jesus lived His entire life under the Old Covenant Law (the Law of Moses), but with His death He completed the Old Covenant Law, thus erasing it and instituting the New Covenant.