He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

@Seabass



You are saved before baptism, baptism is for the saved, they will obey the command, but those who never believe, its because they are lost and condemned. A condemned person cant believe because he only has a disobedient nature
Jesus did not put 'shall be saved" BEFORE baptism. Jesus put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE shall be saved.

Matthew's account makes becoming a disciple APRT from BAPTIZING impossible as Mark's account makes salvation impossible APART from baptism. The Bible does not contradict itself.

As I posted earlier, the faith onlyists rewrites the verse to say....he who believes alone and not baptized shall be saved.

Again, if total inability were true, then it is senseless and sadistic on God's part to command totally depraved people to believe already knowing they cannot then punishing men for not doing the impossible.
People have the ability to choose to believe just as they have the ability to choose to not believe. Those in Acts 2 chose to believe and obey Peter's message they heard while those in Acts 7 chose to not believe Stephen's message.
 
@Seabass



You are saved before baptism, baptism is for the saved, they will obey the command, but those who never believe, its because they are lost and condemned. A condemned person cant believe because he only has a disobedient nature
Thereby attaching water baptism to salvation by saying a believer WILL get baptised in water.

There is such a thing as a carnal believer..there is such a thing as an unbaptised believer .

Salvation isnt just for those who God knows will be always faithful
 
Thereby attaching water baptism to salvation by saying a believer WILL get baptised in water.

There is such a thing as a carnal believer..there is such a thing as an unbaptised believer .

Salvation isnt just for those who God knows will be always faithful
NT belief INCLUDES being baptized...

Acts 10:43................believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins
Acts 2:38 -------------baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the BIble does not contradict itself then NT belief MUST include baptism.

The verb 'believeth' is used as a synecdoche were it INCLUDES baptism:
Acts 2:
41--Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
44--And all that believed were together,

Who are the ones that "believed" in v44? Those that rejected Peter's word and therefore rejected being baptized? Of course not. Those that "believed" were the ones who accepted Peter's word by being baptized.

The logical conclusion of v41 being baptized is HOW one receives the gospel word, rejecting being baptized is rejecting the word.

Acts 8:14 says "when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God," and we know from Acts 2:41 the means by which those Samaritans received the word of God was by being baptized for those in Acts 2 that rejected the word rejected being baptized.

Acts 11:1 "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God." How did the Gentiles in Acts 10 receive the word of God? The exact same way the Jews in Acts 2 and Samaritans Acts 8 did by being baptized. God COMMANDED water baptism to the Jews and Gentiles, how then can it ever be said one "recieved the word of God" if one rejects God's command to be baptized????

There is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

I don't know where you get the idea of a 'carnal believer' from the great commission for no such thing exists. If whatever a carnal believer is if he is not baptized he will not be saved.
 
Greetings SeaBass,

Come here and bring your gospel and we shall expose it as another gospel.


You can start with Mark 16:16
 
Jesus did not put 'shall be saved" BEFORE baptism. Jesus put BOTH belief AND baptism BEFORE shall be saved.

Matthew's account makes becoming a disciple APRT from BAPTIZING impossible as Mark's account makes salvation impossible APART from baptism. The Bible does not contradict itself.

As I posted earlier, the faith onlyists rewrites the verse to say....he who believes alone and not baptized shall be saved.

Again, if total inability were true, then it is senseless and sadistic on God's part to command totally depraved people to believe already knowing they cannot then punishing men for not doing the impossible.
People have the ability to choose to believe just as they have the ability to choose to not believe. Those in Acts 2 chose to believe and obey Peter's message they heard while those in Acts 7 chose to not believe Stephen's message.
Shall be saved is quite different from shall get saved. When a person believed and was baptized, it evidenced them in saved condition. See you want the verse to say Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall get saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

However its Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The word be denotes a state of existence,

So the one that believes shows themselves to be in a saved state, and it also means they shall be saved in the future,

Lost people cannot believe, they dont have the nature for it
 
Greetings SeaBass,

Come here and bring your gospel and we shall expose it as another gospel.


You can start with Mark 16:16
Hello,

Rejecting water baptism is rejecting the gospel of Christ;

2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

---those that "obey not" are the ones lost in flaming fire, hence the dividing line between the saved and lost is OBEDIENCE to God's will NOT FAITH only, not a sinner's prayer, not works of merit but obedience to God

---to not be in flaming fire requires one to "obey.....the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"

a) the gospel Paul preached was the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, (1 Cor 15:1-4)

b) if one must obey the gospel and the gospel is the death, burial & resurrection of Christ, how does one then obey the historical event of Crist's death burial & resurrection?

c) Rom 6, Paul's point is Christians, thought saved by grace, have no license to sin for a Christian is one who is "dead to sin". Therefore to become a Christian, one must DIE to sin, then the old man of sin is BURIED in a watery grave from which he is "RAISED UP FROM" to then walk in newness of life. So there is a death burial and resurrection when one has obediently submitted to God's will in water baptism. There is no death, burial & resurrection in faith onlyism nor in saying some sinner's prayer nor in any kind of so called 'spirit' baptism.

d) If one has not be water baptized then one has not OBEYED the gospel of Christ. Hence rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel of Christ. Attempting to make water baptism non-essential to salvation is "another gospel".

e) those Romans obeyed from the heart that "form" of doctrine (Rom 6:17). The word "form" is typos meaning a pattern. That pattern those Romans obeyed from the heart was the death burial & resurrection of Christ when they obeyed by submitting themselves to water baptism. Again, faith onlyism, a sinner's prayer, some 'spirit' baptism is not that form of doctrine which those Romans OBEYED. Again, 2 Thess 1:8 shows the separating line from the saved and the lost is OBEDIENCE.
 
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Shall be saved is quite different from shall get saved. When a person believed and was baptized, it evidenced them in saved condition. See you want the verse to say Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall get saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

However its Mk 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The word be denotes a state of existence,

So the one that believes shows themselves to be in a saved state, and it also means they shall be saved in the future,

Lost people cannot believe, they dont have the nature for it
'shall be' is indicative mood, a statement of fact that those who believe and are baptized shall for a fact be saved. Those that do not believe shall for a fact be lost.
 
I will post this for the last time..


From Acts 19:28

Being given medication 'for' an illness..

The person already has the illness.

Being baptised 'for' the remission of sin..

The believer already has remission of sin.

If this is not enough, read most of the book o John..eg 3:16, 5:24, 6:40, 8:40, 10:28.
 
“Those who accepted his message were baptized…” —Acts 2:41

The way I read Acts 2:41 is first you accept the gift of salvation then you get baptized.

Baptism is often described as an outward sign of an inward change. It is a public testimony that you believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Your baptism powerfully proclaims what God has done, and is doing, in your life. In addition, as a follower of Jesus, you are publicly saying that you join with Christians from around the world who are unified by faith in Jesus’ death and resurrection.
 
'shall be' is indicative mood, a statement of fact that those who believe and are baptized shall for a fact be saved. Those that do not believe shall for a fact be lost.
Indicative mood is correct, its a statement of fact that the one believing is in a saved state, " shall be saved" not shall get saved.,

Learn wisdom,

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"​

In a word, YES, but not for the reasons most people think. However, those who believe in what is called High Calvinism or Unconditional Election and Predestination or Particular Redemption such as the Primitive Baptists, some times say, No, you don't have to believe in order to be saved. This difficulty arises from a misconception, sometimes in both Calvinists and Arminians, about what it means to be saved.
First, the Bible makes a distinction between being saved eternally (eternal life) and being saved in time (conversion). That does not mean that eternal salvation and salvation in time are mutually exclusive. The fact is one begets the other. Salvation is a broad term that encompasses both eternal life and conversion. Therefore, those who experience eternal life will likewise experience conversion. But confusion arises when a failure is made to distinguish the meaning of a small but significant word be.

Most modern Christians, because of false theology, think the scriptures teach that to be means the same thing as to get. However, there is an important difference between the two. If the Bible taught that one must believe in order to get saved, then salvation would be by our own effort. But the Bible teaches one must believe in order to be saved. The word be indicates a statement of fact. The word get indicates a condition to be met.

What's the difference? Mark 16:16 states, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Clearly this scripture is talking about salvation in both its temporal and eternal aspect. Many Christians today have been taught that scriptures such as this one mean you must believe in order to get saved. But that is not at all what Christ said. The term "shall be saved" is translated from the Greek word sodzo. In this passage the verb sodzo is in the Future Tense, Passive Voice, Indicative Mood. The Online Bible says, "The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact." Because sodzo is written in the indicative mood, it means the salvation Christ has under consideration is not and cannot be a condition to be met. It means that belief is the evidence or assurance of salvation not the means to obtain salvation. It means that everyone who has been saved or will "be saved" will believe in Christ as a matter of fact. Thus, as this scripture demonstrates, belief is necessary because of salvation not to get salvation.

If Christ had rendered sodzo in the imperative mood, then one would be correct in saying you must believe in order to get saved. The Online Bible defines the imperative mood as that which, "expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding." A good example of a scripture with an imperative command is found in the Great Commission. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Mathew 28:19. "Teach" is from the Greek word matheteuo. This verb is written in the imperative mood and expresses a clear command to the disciples to teach the nations Christ's doctrine.

Another example of sodzo is found in Ro 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. And again in Ro 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. In both of these scriptures sodzo is rendered in the indicative mood. Therefore it is a statement of fact that anyone who confesses belief in Jesus and His resurrection, calling upon His name from the heart, will be saved. Because the mood is indicative, it is not the belief, confession or sincerity that results in the saving, either in time or in eternity. Jesus Christ is the Saviour. He saves with the power of his shed blood and by grace alone delivers the sinner from death. Belief, confession and sincerity from the heart are all the result of Christ's saving work not the cause or means to obtain that saving work.

The recipients of this sovereign saving work of Christ are referred to in the scriptures as my sheep, His People, my people, the chosen, the elect and Israel (spiritual). John 10:27, Mathew 1:21, II Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 1:4, II Timothy 2:10, Romans 9:6-24.
It is true that one doesn't have to believe in order to get saved but the Bible teaches a person must believe to be saved.

Elder James Taylor

Edit 10/5/2006
 
Indicative mood is correct, its a statement of fact that the one believing is in a saved state, " shall be saved" not shall get saved.,

Learn wisdom,


Mark 16:16; Jn 3:16 nor any other NT verse teaches one is save at the point of belief alone. All the belief alone in the world can never save the impenitent (Rom 2:3-5), nor save those who will not confess (Jn 12:42) nor those that will not be baptized (2 THess 1:8)

Beleif alone is NOT obeying the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8
 

Act of Water Baptism​

In summary, the act of immersing someone into water does not forgive sins. Romans 6:4-7 gives us the symbolic meaning of baptism.


Baptism symbolizes our death and burial with Christ and then being resurrected to new life in Christ. Baptism symbolizes a person dying to sin and living unto righteousness (Romans 6:7, 18).

As a person is immersed into the water, it symbolizes their dying to self. Then as the person is raised out of the water, it symbolizes rising to new life in Christ. Baptism is a symbolic act that says, “I turn away from my sins. I die to myself and to my sins and turn to Jesus. I am a new person in Christ.” Baptism is an outward symbol of an inward change that has already occurred – salvation at the point of one’s belief in and acceptance of the sacrificial death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.
pagan ritual
 
Hello,

Rejecting water baptism is rejecting the gospel of Christ;

2 Thess 1:8
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"

---those that "obey not" are the ones lost in flaming fire, hence the dividing line between the saved and lost is OBEDIENCE to God's will NOT FAITH only, not a sinner's prayer, not works of merit but obedience to God

---to not be in flaming fire requires one to "obey.....the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Greetings SeaBass,

No one is talking about rejecting water baptism, but is water baptism the means of the forgiveness of one's sins is the question? And we say no, Christ's obedience alone is the means of one's sins being forgiven.

All who believe who should give an answer of a good conscience in water baptism, no man has the right to not be baptized into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ.
Rom 6, Paul's point is Christians, thought saved by grace, have no license to sin for a Christian is one who is "dead to sin". Therefore to become a Christian, one must DIE to sin, then the old man of sin is BURIED in a watery grave from which he is "RAISED UP FROM" to then walk in newness of life. So there is a death burial and resurrection when one has obediently submitted to God's will in water baptism. There is no death, burial & resurrection in faith onlyism nor in saying some sinner's prayer nor in any kind of so called 'spirit' baptism.
Agree ~ Baptism speaks to the eyes, what the gospel does to the ears of men when one is baptized in water ~ but, that being said, still one's sins are forgiven through the blood/death/resurrection of Christ alone, whether or not one is ever baptized in water, though post Christ's death, and resurrection, water baptism is our answer of faith to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which we are committing ourselves to live according to the teachings of Christ, and a commitment to follow him with all of our hearts, mind and soul.
d) If one has not be water baptized then one has not OBEYED the gospel of Christ. Hence rejecting baptism is rejecting the gospel of Christ.
No man who has faith and is able, has a right to reject water baptism, and of course, he would not, never seen a case in the scriptures where one did.
Attempting to make water baptism non-essential to salvation is "another gospel".
Making water baptism essential to having one's sins forgiven legally is another gospel~there is a salvation in a practical sense in water baptism, but not legally, only the blood/death of Christ is the legal means of one's sins being forgiven. Would you like to discuss Mark 16;16 with me?
e) those Romans obeyed from the heart that "form" of doctrine (Rom 6:17). The word "form" is typos meaning a pattern. That pattern those Romans obeyed from the heart was the death burial & resurrection of Christ when they obeyed by submitting themselves to water baptism. Again, faith onlyism, a sinner's prayer, some 'spirit' baptism is not that form of doctrine which those Romans OBEYED. Again, 2 Thess 1:8 shows the separating line from the saved and the lost is OBEDIENCE.
Obedience on our part is at best an evidence, not the means, "only" the faith and obedience of Christ is the means of having one's sins forgiven.
 
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1a) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved,
1b) he that believeth not shall be condemned.


2a) He that climbs mountain "x" and plants a US flag shall receive $10,000,
2b) he that does not climb mountain "X" shall not receive $10,000.


Both statements above in bold represent a logical progression of steps where one cannot move to the second step without taking the first step.

One cannot receive $10,000 unless one first plants a US flag but one logically cannot plant the US flag atop mountain "X" unless one first climbs mountain "X".

Since this is a logical progression of steps then we can make logical deductions. We know logically if one has not first climbed the mountain, then we can logically deduce he has not planted the US flag on top nor received the $10,000.

Likewise one cannot receive salvation unless one is first baptized but one cannot be baptized unless one first believes. Therefore we can logically deduce if one has not first believed then we know also he has not been baptized.

Therefore when Christ says in 1b "he that believeth not" then we logically already know this phrase includes not being baptized since belief has been made a prerequisite to baptism. Therefore it would be logically unnecessary and reduntant for Christ to say he that believeth not and is baptized not due to his unbelief shall be condemned.

=====================

Mk 16:16 is a compound sentence with two subjects; salvation and condemnation. The verse lists TWO requirements for salvation, belief AND baptism but just ONE requirement for condemnation; unbelief.

There are NOT TWO requirements that have to be met to be condemned, just one requirment that being unbelief for we already logically know that unbelief includes not being baptized.

The two requirements to be saved, belief and baptism, are joined by the conjunction 'and" making both of equal importance and necessity in receiving salvation. Therefore if salvation can be received apart from baptism then it can equally be received apart from belief.


====================

The faith onlyists rewrites the verse to say..he who believes alone and not baptized shall be saved.
Those that baptize infants rewrite it to say...he who does not believe and is baptized shall be saved.
Those that believe in Universalism rewrite it to say..he who believes not and baptized not will be saved anyway.
Jesus says he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Why call ye Me Lord, Lord and do not the things which I say, (Lk 6:46.)

===================


Eph 2:8 -----------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Pet 3:21 -------baptism >>>>>>>>>>> saves

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the Bible does not contradict itself then NT faith MUST include baptism.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

He who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well but he who does not take his medication will remain sick. Of course, it's not the washing it down with water part that makes a person well. It's the medication, but if water is not available and the person takes the medication dry (been there, done that) they will still be made well "because of the medication." It's the same with baptism. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, yet Jesus clarified the first clause of Mark 16:16 with, "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing there about a lack of baptism causing condemnation.

Water-salvationists rewrite the verse to say he who is not baptized will be condemned.
The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation.
Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism.
NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8 ------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Peter 3:21 -----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves>>>>>>>>>>>>keep reading>>>>>>>>>>>>not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.
This is what happens when water-salvationists cherry pick Scripture. End result - false gospel/salvation by water baptism.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now we don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus baptism? Plus works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:17)

The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Beware of the false gospel of "water baptized or condemned" as taught by water-salvationists.
 
Greetings SeaBass,

No one is talking about rejecting water baptism, but is water baptism the means of the forgiveness of one's sins is the question? And we say no, Christ's obedience alone is the means of one's sins being forgiven.

All who believe who should give an answer of a good conscience in water baptism, no man has the right to not be baptized into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ.
Hello again.

It's not just a coincidence or accident that there is a death, burial & resurrection that takes place when one is water baptized, that was intended by God. Hence when one is water baptized one is following in the footsteps of Christ. As I noted earlier from Rom 6:17 water baptism was that form, that pattern of doctrine of Christ's death burial & resurrection that those Romans obeyed from the heart that brought about their being freed from sin-justified. Water baptism is HOW those Romans obeyed the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8 to be saved/not be in flaming fire.

Therefore, no matter how hard anyone may try, no one will ever be able to separate water baptism from the gospel of Christ. This important fact means that if one calls water baptism non-essential to becoming saved then by extension one is saying the gospel of Christ is non-essential to becoming saved. If one calls water baptism a "pagan ritual" then one is calling the gospel of Christ paganism....the death burial & resurrection of Christ would be pagan.

The implication of this; as long as one CONTINUES to NOT be water baptized, one CONTINUES REJECTING the gospel of Christ.

(a) I have noted earlier about Acts 2:41:
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:.." The implication of this means those that rejected the gospel as spoken by Peter rejected being baptized. The logical conclusion is being baptized is HOW one receives the gospel, receives the word of God (Acts 8:14; Acts 11:1). So as long as one is not baptized, then one is rejecting and continues to reject the gospel if Christ. God COMMANDED water baptism, therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to receive the word of God while one is rejecting God's word by not obeying it. Receiving God's word means to obey it.

(b) Rom 10, Paul lamented over the fact his brethren in the flesh were lost. They were lost because they had "not obeyed the gospel" v16. One therefore IS lost and REMAINS lost until one FIRST OBEYS the gospel of Christ.

(c) Again, God has commanded water baptism and the Bible associates righteousness with God's commandments (Psa 119:172). Hence when one obeys God's command to be water baptized then one is doing righteousness. Peter says those who "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God, (Acts 10:35). Those who then obey God by being water baptized are working God's righteousness and accepted with God, those that have not obeyed God by being water baptized are therefore working UNrighteousness and are rejected.

Agree ~ Baptism speaks to the eyes, what the gospel does to the ears of men when one is baptized in water ~ but, that being said, still one's sins are forgiven through the blood/death/resurrection of Christ alone, whether or not one is ever baptized in water, though post Christ's death, and resurrection, water baptism is our answer of faith to the gospel of Jesus Christ, which we are committing ourselves to live according to the teachings of Christ, and a commitment to follow him with all of our hearts, mind and soul.

No man who has faith and is able, has a right to reject water baptism, and of course, he would not, never seen a case in the scriptures where one did.
Confession made with the mouth (Rom 10:9-10) can be witnessed with the eyes but that does not make confession non-essential to salvation (Mt 10:32-33).
Yet when one is water baptized there is some extremely necessary to being saved taking place that CANNOT be seen with the eyes...
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col 2:11-12). For those who obediently submit themselves to God in water baptism a circumcision made without hands that cannot be seen takes place with God doing the work of removing the body of sin. Therefore as long as one is NOT water baptized one IS lost and REMAINS lost in their sin. Those spiritual circumcision does not occured at the moment of faith only's mental assent of the mind, while saying a sinner's prayer or by any kind of 'spirit' baptism but only occurs when one obediently submits to God in water baptism as God command.

=====================

--Rev 1:5 John says Christ 'washed us from our sins in His own blood'.
--Jn 19:34 "forthwith came there out blood and water" .... Christ's blood that washes away sins was shed in His death
--This means man must have access into Christ's death where He shed His blood whereby that blood can wash away man's sins.
--again, by NO ACCIDENT or COINCIDENCE God has made water baptism the means by which one enters into the death of Christ to have access to Christ's shed blood that washes away sin (Rom 6:3). A faith only ascent of the mind does not put one into the death of Christ, reciting some 'sinner's prayer'' does not put one into the death of Christ, no kind of 'spirit' baptism puts one into the death of Christ.

Making water baptism essential to having one's sins forgiven legally is another gospel~there is a salvation in a practical sense in water baptism, but not legally, only the blood/death of Christ is the legal means of one's sins being forgiven. Would you like to discuss Mark 16;16 with me?
The death burial & resurrection that takes place in water baptism IS the gospel of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4) as the Bible clearly shows. Hence NO ONE can ever separate water baptism from the gospel of Christ. Making water baptism non-esential to salvation IS MAKING the gospel of Christ non-essential to salvation. Making water baptism non-esential to salvation IS MAKING the blood of Christ non-essential to salvation as I just noted that water baptism is the means, is the access into Christ's death where He shed His blood that washes away sin. Making water baptism non-essential to salvation is for a fact "another gospel".
Obedience on our part is at best an evidence, not the means, "only" the faith and obedience of Christ is the means of having one's sins forgiven.
The NT does NOT put salvation BEFORE obedience, that is putting the cart before the horse. This is why no one can find a single example in the NT gospel of God UNconditionally saving a sinner BEFORE that sinner humbly obeys God's will in believing (Jn 8:24) repenting of sins (Lk 13:3) confessing (Mt 10:32-33) being baptized (Mk 16:16).

This is why the idea of a "sinner saved by grace" is NOT found in the NT because sinner's are those who have NOT obediently complied to God's will hence sinners have not and will not receive grace unless/until they first obey God. Paul in Rom 6 was writing to Christians and his point being because Christians are saved by grace does not give the Christian a license to sin. Christians are the ones who are saved by grace for Christians are those who HAVE obediently complied to God's will in believing repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and water baptized. Tts 2:11 God's grace hath appeared to all men yet all men will not receive God's grace and be saved for all men will not obey God therefore remain lost sinners. Hence this idea of a 'sinner saved by grace' is a false narrative made by those promoting the false idea of salvation by grace alone whereby obedience is not essential to becoming saved.

==============================

I made my comments on Mark 16:16 in post #1096
 
Mark 16:16; Jn 3:16 nor any other NT verse teaches one is save at the point of belief alone. All the belief alone in the world can never save the impenitent (Rom 2:3-5), nor save those who will not confess (Jn 12:42) nor those that will not be baptized (2 THess 1:8)

Beleif alone is NOT obeying the gospel of Christ per 2 Thess 1:8
I c u didnt learn wisdom.
 
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

He who takes his medication and washes it down with water will be made well but he who does not take his medication will remain sick. Of course, it's not the washing it down with water part that makes a person well. It's the medication, but if water is not available and the person takes the medication dry (been there, done that) they will still be made well "because of the medication." It's the same with baptism. It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, yet Jesus clarified the first clause of Mark 16:16 with, "but he who does not believe will be condemned." Nothing there about a lack of baptism causing condemnation.
According to your analogy, to be healed requires two things;
1) medication must be place in mouth
2) medication must be washed down
Just placing medication in the mouth ALONE cannot heal, that medication must be washed down where it can then go into the body to provide healing.
The correct order is first placed in moth then washed down, cannot wash down what has not been placed in the mouth yet
Just placing life saving medicine in mouth ALONE leads to death.

Christ requires two things to be saved,
1) belief
2) baptism
Just belief alone apart from baptism cannot save as just putting medicine in mouth apart from washing it down cannot heal.
And the order is belief first, then baptism.
Just belief alone leads to death

You ignore the logical progression Christ created in Mk 16:16.
Belief must take place before baptism and baptism must take place before salvation. Since this is a logical progression of steps then we can logically deduce that an unbeliever has not been baptized since Christ made belief a prerequisite to being baptized. Hence, when Christ said "he that believeth not" we ALREADY LOGICALLY KNOW that he that unbeliever not has NOT BEEN baptized. Therefore it is not logically necessary for Christ to say 'he that believeth not and is baptized not due to his unbelief" since we already logically know the unbeliever has not been baptized. In your zeal to rewrite Mk 16:16 you are throwing simple logic out the window.

In the example I gave: He who climbs mountain "X" and plants a US flag on top of mountain "X" shall receive $10,000. So if I say John has not climbed mountain "X" then we already logically know John also has not planted a US flag on top of mountain "X". Likewise we know if John has not believed, then we logically already know John has not been baptized either....

believeth not = not baptized

Christ uses logic and you simply cannot throw that simple logic out the window.
Water-salvationists rewrite the verse to say he who is not baptized will be condemned.
The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation.
Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism.
NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Ephesians 2:8 ------------faith >>>>>>>>>>>> saves
1 Peter 3:21 -----------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>saves>>>>>>>>>>>>keep reading>>>>>>>>>>>>not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.
This is what happens when water-salvationists cherry pick Scripture. End result - false gospel/salvation by water baptism.

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 15:9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-9, 26; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now we don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus baptism? Plus works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:17)

The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; 16:31; Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9 etc..). Beware of the false gospel of "water baptized or condemned" as taught by water-salvationists.
Peter clearly says they were "saved by water" it is YOU that denies this plain fact for it does not fit your preconceived ideas.

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
"

Points:

a)
Peter said "baptism doth also noW saves us"....baptism saves therefore end of story, cased closed. Yet faith onlyists cannot accept these plain words for it does not fit how they think God should save men hence they will bludgeon the verse to death with a faith only stick until they change the "w" in "now" to a "T" to make the verse read the way THEY want it to read, that being, baptism doth also noT save us.

b)
Peter says "the like figure" which in the Greek is antitypos. Peteris making an comparison between an OT type to a NT antitype:
OT Type: ---------- saved by water (flood water)
NT antitype:------- saved by water (baptism)

An antitype is a mirror reflection of the type, hence the OT type "saved by water" is a mirror reflection of NT antitype 'saved by water".
Changing what Peter said to "saved in an ark" messes up the mirror reflection in the type to antitype connection Peter makes. Again, Peter said "saved by water" and you desperately must change that for it does not fit your personal faith only theological bias.

And we know the baptism here refers to literal water baptism which is the one baptism of Eph 4:5 and not some kind of "spirit" baptism for the world was not flooded with 'spirit', Peter did not say eight souls saved by 'spirit'. No verse teaches 'spirit' baptism saves/remits sins.

Eight souls saved by LITERAL WATER is an OT foreshadow for us today saved by LITERAL WATER baptism.....we today are not saved by a literal wooden ark.

Paul in Tts 3:5 and Eph 5:26 used the term "washing"... Greek word loutron. Paul here is referring to a laver of water. In the OT, the Priests had to cleanse themselves in a laver of water before entering the Temple. That is another OT foreshadow for us today by in having our sins cleansed away be the blood of Christ in a laver of water, a baptistry, before one can enter the church, the kingdom of God,


c) Peter said "saved by water"..... God used water to accomplish two things at the same time. God used the water 1) to destroy that wicked, evil generation of people and at the same time God 2) used water to delivery Noah from that evil and corruption by using water to cleanse the earth of wickedness.

Parallels:
--water delivered Noah from a sinful evil world to a new world, baptism delivers us from sin to a new man, to a newness of life
--flood water separated the saved from the lost, water baptism separates the saved from the lost
--flood water was not Christ but the means, the element God used to save Noah, water baptism is not Christ but is the means, the element God has chosen to save man by cutting away the body of sins when one submits himself to water baptism.

d)
water baptism is not putting away the filthy of the flesh which means baptism is not just some external ceremonial washing as those Jewish washing in the OT. Though water can take away the filthy of the flesh, this shows there is no efficacy in water to take away sins. Hence there is nothing special about the water for it is the ACT OF OBEYING GOD by submitting to God's command to be water baptized that GOD cuts away the body of sin when one submits himself to God in water baptism.

e)
water baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience. In Acts 2 Peter preached to wicked sinful men that crucified the Christ convicting them of their sins. Peter's message "pricked" their heart, it bothered their conscience to the point they asked Peter "what must we do" To which Peter commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins.

--these people did not have a good conscience BEFORE they were baptized, it took baptism and the remittance of their sins first for them to then be able to face God with a good conscience. Hence the verse is not saying one appeals to God to be baptized because one already has a good conscience. No good conscience apart from water baptism.

f)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
......the resurrection gives meaning to water baptism. The gospel is Jesus' death burial & resurrection (1 Cor 15:1-4) and there is a death burial & resurrection that takes place when one obeys the gospel in water baptism. This means if there were no resurrection of Christ, then there can be no resurrection from baptism where one can then walk in newness of life. The fact God did raise up Jesus we can then be confident that when we are raised up from the waters of baptism God has cut away our body of sin whereby we can walk in newness of life.
 
NT belief INCLUDES being baptized...

Acts 10:43................believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins
Acts 2:38 -------------baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins

Since there is but one way to be saved, no alternatives, and the BIble does not contradict itself then NT belief MUST include baptism.

The verb 'believeth' is used as a synecdoche were it INCLUDES baptism:
Acts 2:
41--Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
44--And all that believed were together,

Who are the ones that "believed" in v44? Those that rejected Peter's word and therefore rejected being baptized? Of course not. Those that "believed" were the ones who accepted Peter's word by being baptized.

The logical conclusion of v41 being baptized is HOW one receives the gospel word, rejecting being baptized is rejecting the word.

Acts 8:14 says "when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God," and we know from Acts 2:41 the means by which those Samaritans received the word of God was by being baptized for those in Acts 2 that rejected the word rejected being baptized.

Acts 11:1 "And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God." How did the Gentiles in Acts 10 receive the word of God? The exact same way the Jews in Acts 2 and Samaritans Acts 8 did by being baptized. God COMMANDED water baptism to the Jews and Gentiles, how then can it ever be said one "recieved the word of God" if one rejects God's command to be baptized????

There is no such thing as an unbaptized Christian.

I don't know where you get the idea of a 'carnal believer' from the great commission for no such thing exists. If whatever a carnal believer is if he is not baptized he will not be saved.
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