Um you assume water
Nowhere does it say we enter into covenant with him when water baptized
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He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
- Thread starter 360watt
- Start date
Nowhere does it say we enter into covenant with him when water baptized
Doug Brents
Well-known member
I assume nothing.Um you assume water
Nowhere does it say we enter into covenant with him when water baptized
We know that we die to sin, have sin removed, and are resurrected with Christ during baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
We also know that there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6).
We also know that baptism is something that the teacher must do (Matt 28:19), and that the disciple must received (Acts 2:38).
We also know that baptism in water is what saves us (1 Pet 3:21).
So the baptism mentioned in Rom 6:1-7 is the same baptism mentioned in 1 Pet 3:21, and is the same baptism that was commanded and performed in Acts 2:38.
Of course you doI assume nothing.
We know that we die to sin, have sin removed, and are resurrected with Christ during baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).
We also know that there is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5-6).
We also know that baptism is something that the teacher must do (Matt 28:19), and that the disciple must received (Acts 2:38).
We also know that baptism in water is what saves us (1 Pet 3:21).
So the baptism mentioned in Rom 6:1-7 is the same baptism mentioned in 1 Pet 3:21, and is the same baptism that was commanded and performed in Acts 2:38.
Water is not mentioned
Water does not cause you to die to sin
Doug Brents
Well-known member
It doesn't need to be; it is mentioned in other places as noted in the verses cited above. Read the Scriptures!!Water is not mentioned
Correct, it is the Holy Spirit who, in the water of baptism, causes us to die to sin, circumcises us without hands, and resurrects us from death in the world to life in Christ, as the verses cited above state.Water does not cause you to die to sin
Sorry seeing as that is not the only baptism and as spirit baptism places men in the bodyIt doesn't need to be; it is mentioned in other places as noted in the verses cited above. Read the Scriptures!!
Correct, it is the Holy Spirit who, in the water of baptism, causes us to die to sin, circumcises us without hands, and resurrects us from death in the world to life in Christ, as the verses cited above state.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
dwight92070
Well-known member
The spiritual comes first, i.e. the vows made from the heart in marriage, making a life-time commitment.
The physical comes next, i.e. the consummation of the marriage in sexual intercourse.
The spiritual comes first, i.e. being born again, dying with Christ, having your sins forgiven, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you, and you make a life-time commitment to Jesus.
The physical comes next, i.e. water baptism, which reflects your death with Christ and that you acknowledge that you have died (past tense) with Him. It is a commemoration and a ritual of celebration that you have died with Him. Because you have died with him, water baptism represents your burial and resurrection with Him.
It's true that water baptism should be in close proximity to salvation, but for whatever reason, that does not always happen. However the person is still saved in between salvation and baptism. His salvation has already occurred.
It's also true that the consummation of one's marriage should be in close proximity to their actual covenant and marriage vows, but that too does not always happen.
After Joseph and Mary were married - Matthew 1:24 - they waited about 6 months for Jesus to be born. They did not consummate their marriage during that time - Matthew 1:25 After Mary gave birth she was still bleeding for about 6 weeks, so it's very likely that they did not consummate their marriage until close to 7 1/2 months after they were married. Yet they were married that entire time.
The physical comes next, i.e. the consummation of the marriage in sexual intercourse.
The spiritual comes first, i.e. being born again, dying with Christ, having your sins forgiven, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you, and you make a life-time commitment to Jesus.
The physical comes next, i.e. water baptism, which reflects your death with Christ and that you acknowledge that you have died (past tense) with Him. It is a commemoration and a ritual of celebration that you have died with Him. Because you have died with him, water baptism represents your burial and resurrection with Him.
It's true that water baptism should be in close proximity to salvation, but for whatever reason, that does not always happen. However the person is still saved in between salvation and baptism. His salvation has already occurred.
It's also true that the consummation of one's marriage should be in close proximity to their actual covenant and marriage vows, but that too does not always happen.
After Joseph and Mary were married - Matthew 1:24 - they waited about 6 months for Jesus to be born. They did not consummate their marriage during that time - Matthew 1:25 After Mary gave birth she was still bleeding for about 6 weeks, so it's very likely that they did not consummate their marriage until close to 7 1/2 months after they were married. Yet they were married that entire time.
dwight92070
Well-known member
After marriage, consummation is not optional, it is commanded by the Lord. "Be fruitful and multiply." Genesis 1:28 and 1 Corinthians 7:3
After salvation, water baptism is not optional, it too is commanded by the Lord. Matthew 28:19 After salvation, to be baptized in water should be the first command to be obeyed.
After salvation, water baptism is not optional, it too is commanded by the Lord. Matthew 28:19 After salvation, to be baptized in water should be the first command to be obeyed.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
By reading this verse as "spirit baptism" you nullify 1 Pet 3:21 which says that water baptism now saves us. And you nullify Eph 4:5-6 which clearly says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church. The ONE BAPTISM must be something that man does (Matt 28:19), that man receives by choice (Acts 2:38), that is done in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36-38), and that includes the working of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Cor 12:13). All of these MUST be true of the baptism by which we are saved (receive the indwelling of the Spirit, die to sin, and are resurrected in Christ).Sorry seeing as that is not the only baptism and as spirit baptism places men in the body
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
For marriage, that is true. But for salvation, that is not true. Rom 6:3-4 makes it clear that we die to sin in (during) baptism, not before. Col 2:12 also makes it clear that in (during) baptism we receive Spiritual circumcision and resurrection from death due to sin.The spiritual comes first, i.e. the vows made from the heart in marriage, making a life-time commitment.
The physical comes next, i.e. the consummation of the marriage in sexual intercourse.
If that were true, then 1 Pet 3:21 is a lie, because it says that baptism (in water, like the Flood) now saves you. And then it makes it clear that this is not a removal of dirt from the body (a physical cleansing), but an appeal to God for a clean conscience (Spiritual cleansing).The spiritual comes first, i.e. being born again, dying with Christ, having your sins forgiven, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you, and you make a life-time commitment to Jesus.
The physical comes next, i.e. water baptism, which reflects your death with Christ and that you acknowledge that you have died (past tense) with Him. It is a commemoration and a ritual of celebration that you have died with Him. Because you have died with him, water baptism represents your burial and resurrection with Him.
They are not "in close proximity, they occur at the same time. If he has not died to sin (in baptism), and been resurrected by the Holy Spirit (in baptism), then he has not been saved.It's true that water baptism should be in close proximity to salvation, but for whatever reason, that does not always happen. However the person is still saved in between salvation and baptism. His salvation has already occurred.
While it is neither here nor there for this discussion: they were already married before the Angel told her that she would have Jesus (Matt 1:18). They (and/or their fathers) had signed a ketubah (which is a marriage contract) that binds the youths together as married, but they do not yet live together. Then the boy builds their house, and the girl makes herself beautiful and ready for the wedding. Then the boy goes to get the girl from her father's house and brings her to his house (the wedding march through town). And sometime during the first night (of the usually week long celebration) the couple consummates the marriage. But like you said, Joseph and Mary did not have a wedding march (Joseph went to get her in secret because of the shame of her already being with child), and they did not consummate their marriage until a good time after Jesus was born (at least 40 days according to Lev 12).It's also true that the consummation of one's marriage should be in close proximity to their actual covenant and marriage vows, but that too does not always happen.
After Joseph and Mary were married - Matthew 1:24 - they waited about 6 months for Jesus to be born. They did not consummate their marriage during that time - Matthew 1:25 After Mary gave birth she was still bleeding for about 6 weeks, so it's very likely that they did not consummate their marriage until close to 7 1/2 months after they were married. Yet they were married that entire time.
But that is all irrelevant to our discussion, because marriage is not like salvation as I said before.
You must ignore a massive amount of Scripture to put salvation before baptism. As has been pointed out already, one must die to sin before they can be resurrected, and death to sin and resurrection both occur during water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21).After marriage, consummation is not optional, it is commanded by the Lord. "Be fruitful and multiply." Genesis 1:28 and 1 Corinthians 7:3
After salvation, water baptism is not optional, it too is commanded by the Lord. Matthew 28:19 After salvation, to be baptized in water should be the first command to be obeyed.
Sorry it is seen hereBy reading this verse as "spirit baptism" you nullify 1 Pet 3:21 which says that water baptism now saves us. And you nullify Eph 4:5-6 which clearly says that there is only one baptism in the NT Church. The ONE BAPTISM must be something that man does (Matt 28:19), that man receives by choice (Acts 2:38), that is done in water (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 8:36-38), and that includes the working of the Holy Spirit (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Cor 12:13). All of these MUST be true of the baptism by which we are saved (receive the indwelling of the Spirit, die to sin, and are resurrected in Christ).
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
It is spirit baptism which places one in the body of Christ
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Again, your interpretation of that verse makes 1 Pet 3:21 into a lie. Yes, the Holy Spirit is the one doing the action that actually saves us (cuts our sin from us and resurrects us with Christ (Col 2:11-14), but that happens during water baptism (1 Pet 3:21). Remember, ALL Scripture must agree because it was all authored by the same infallible God. So your interpretation of it must make it ALL agree, and 1 Pet 3:21 is very clear that it is baptism in water (like the Flood) that now saves us.Sorry it is seen here
1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
It is spirit baptism which places one in the body of Christ
dwight92070
Well-known member
1 Peter 3:21 - "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, ..."
If we stop here, it appears that baptism does save us - but the verse does not stop there. Let's go on:
"not the removal of the filth of the flesh (in the Greek) ..." some translate this: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" but this is highly unlikely, because no one argued then or argues now that water baptism is done to physically wash your body.
So baptism does not remove the filth (that is the sin) of our flesh. So baptism does not literally save us, but it is a picture of what does save us: the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. And nowhere in scripture, not Romans 6 or any other verses, are we told that the blood of Jesus will only cleanse us in water baptism. That is a man-made idea from men who wish to do something "religious" in order to earn salvation. I Peter 1:18-19 says we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, but NOT in baptism. Also 1 John 1:7 says we are cleansed from all sin by His blood. Cleansing of and forgiveness of sin does not occur in water baptism. That only happens through our faith in Jesus. Acts 10:43
But let's continue the verse: "but answer of a good conscience toward God (Greek translation)"
So getting baptized is the proper response of someone who has been given a good conscience toward God - again, by the blood of Jesus. (Hebrews 9:14) and assurance of salvation because Jesus rose from the dead.
A ritual that "pictures" salvation cannot save anyone. Jesus Himself saves us.
We know that marriage is very much like salvation. We are the Bride of Christ. Paul said "I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." 1 Corinthians 11:2 Also God said more than once that He had married Israel. Today, we are the Israel of God. When they rebelled, He accused them of adultery. To say that marriage is not like salvation is to ignore scripture.
So if we were not baptized on the same day as we were saved, are we lost? What scripture tells us that?
The story of Joseph and Mary is not irrelevant. There is a parallel in that we see that the consummation of marriage may not occur on the same day as the marriage, just as water baptism may not occur on the day we were saved. No one here is saying that we want there to be a gap of time between salvation and baptism - but to suggest that someone's salvation is invalid because there was such a gap - again, that goes beyond what the scripture says.
Actually there are NO scriptures that tell us that baptism must occur before salvation. On the contrary, there are many that tell us just the opposite. None of your go-to verses show that, except in your imagination. But in your own words, even if there were 100,000 verses that say that baptism must precede salvation, and only one or two say the opposite - we still cannot deny the truth of the one or two.
If we stop here, it appears that baptism does save us - but the verse does not stop there. Let's go on:
"not the removal of the filth of the flesh (in the Greek) ..." some translate this: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" but this is highly unlikely, because no one argued then or argues now that water baptism is done to physically wash your body.
So baptism does not remove the filth (that is the sin) of our flesh. So baptism does not literally save us, but it is a picture of what does save us: the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. And nowhere in scripture, not Romans 6 or any other verses, are we told that the blood of Jesus will only cleanse us in water baptism. That is a man-made idea from men who wish to do something "religious" in order to earn salvation. I Peter 1:18-19 says we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, but NOT in baptism. Also 1 John 1:7 says we are cleansed from all sin by His blood. Cleansing of and forgiveness of sin does not occur in water baptism. That only happens through our faith in Jesus. Acts 10:43
But let's continue the verse: "but answer of a good conscience toward God (Greek translation)"
So getting baptized is the proper response of someone who has been given a good conscience toward God - again, by the blood of Jesus. (Hebrews 9:14) and assurance of salvation because Jesus rose from the dead.
A ritual that "pictures" salvation cannot save anyone. Jesus Himself saves us.
We know that marriage is very much like salvation. We are the Bride of Christ. Paul said "I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." 1 Corinthians 11:2 Also God said more than once that He had married Israel. Today, we are the Israel of God. When they rebelled, He accused them of adultery. To say that marriage is not like salvation is to ignore scripture.
So if we were not baptized on the same day as we were saved, are we lost? What scripture tells us that?
The story of Joseph and Mary is not irrelevant. There is a parallel in that we see that the consummation of marriage may not occur on the same day as the marriage, just as water baptism may not occur on the day we were saved. No one here is saying that we want there to be a gap of time between salvation and baptism - but to suggest that someone's salvation is invalid because there was such a gap - again, that goes beyond what the scripture says.
Actually there are NO scriptures that tell us that baptism must occur before salvation. On the contrary, there are many that tell us just the opposite. None of your go-to verses show that, except in your imagination. But in your own words, even if there were 100,000 verses that say that baptism must precede salvation, and only one or two say the opposite - we still cannot deny the truth of the one or two.
That is not how the Bible portrays it. Rom 6:1-7 says that we enter into the covenant with Jesus when we die with Him "in baptism". We do not die with Him when we "believe" in Him. We do not die with Him when we confess Him. We do not die with Him when we repent of our sins. We die with Him when we are baptized into His death, and that is when the Holy Spirit resurrects us.
I also believe the Romans 6 baptism is water baptism.. but that it is still a picture of the salvation that has happened before it.
The object of the faith that saves us is Jesus Christ.. not things we do for works, including water baptism.
We place our faith in the object of our faith-- Jesus.. who responds by sealing us with His Holy Spirit. Without placing our faith in Jesus.. .there is no conversion.
It's not about the water baptism.. but the object of our faith. And that is Jesus Christ.
We place our faith in the object of our faith-- Jesus.. who responds by sealing us with His Holy Spirit. Without placing our faith in Jesus.. .there is no conversion.
It's not about the water baptism.. but the object of our faith. And that is Jesus Christ.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You cannot separate salvation, being washed in Jesus' blood, and baptism. The three are inseparably linked, in this verse as well as others.1 Peter 3:21 - "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you, ..."
If we stop here, it appears that baptism does save us - but the verse does not stop there. Let's go on:
"not the removal of the filth of the flesh (in the Greek) ..." some translate this: "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" but this is highly unlikely, because no one argued then or argues now that water baptism is done to physically wash your body.
So baptism does not remove the filth (that is the sin) of our flesh. So baptism does not literally save us, but it is a picture of what does save us: the blood of Jesus shed on the cross. And nowhere in scripture, not Romans 6 or any other verses, are we told that the blood of Jesus will only cleanse us in water baptism. That is a man-made idea from men who wish to do something "religious" in order to earn salvation. I Peter 1:18-19 says we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, but NOT in baptism. Also 1 John 1:7 says we are cleansed from all sin by His blood. Cleansing of and forgiveness of sin does not occur in water baptism. That only happens through our faith in Jesus. Acts 10:43
Corresponding to that baptism now saves you
"Corresponding to that (the water of the Flood), baptism (in water) now saves you... You cannot separate baptism from salvation
not the removal of dirt from the flesh, - "The Apostle is not cautioning his readers against the thought that baptism acted ex opere operato, as a charm, but he is telling them, on the contrary, that it is no external rite. He was writing to Jews, who were very familiar with ceremonial washings, or "baptisings," which, though they symbolised a cleansing from sin, really effected nothing but to make the skin less dirty."
but an appeal to God for a good conscience -
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," - The blood of Christ is invoked here, just as you stated it must be, for the water is not capable of removing sin, but is the vehicle of faith that God ordained as the point at which the Spirit takes action to remove our sin.
Not, "has been given", but "is a request to be given".But let's continue the verse: "but answer of a good conscience toward God (Greek translation)"
So getting baptized is the proper response of someone who has been given a good conscience toward God - again, by the blood of Jesus. (Hebrews 9:14) and assurance of salvation because Jesus rose from the dead.
Of course Jesus Himself saves us. But He saves us through the ordinances He established, like repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism; in the same way that He delivered Jericho into the hands of the nation through marching around the city, He delivered healing to Naaman through dipping in Jordan (baptism) seven times, He delivered wealth to the widow through the borrowing of jars and the pouring of oil, etc.A ritual that "pictures" salvation cannot save anyone. Jesus Himself saves us.
Salvation is very much like marriage. But we are not married when we decide to marry. We are not married when we promise to marry. We are not married when we get engaged. Marriage happens when we make vows to God and to each other in front of the minister/judge and are pronounced husband and wife. The wedding ceremony is the same as baptism. Just making a promise while sitting in a seat during a sermon is like making a vow while in the back seat of a car, it doesn't mean you are married and it doesn't mean you are saved.We know that marriage is very much like salvation. We are the Bride of Christ. Paul said "I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin." 1 Corinthians 11:2 Also God said more than once that He had married Israel. Today, we are the Israel of God. When they rebelled, He accused them of adultery. To say that marriage is not like salvation is to ignore scripture.
We are ALWAYS baptized on the same day as we are saved, because salvation (death to sin, resurrection in Christ) occurs during baptism, not before.So if we were not baptized on the same day as we were saved, are we lost? What scripture tells us that?
There is never a gap between salvation and baptism, because salvation occurs during baptism (baptism now saves you, he who is believes and is baptized will be saved). Salvation does not occur unless and until one dies to sin. Death to sin occurs DURING water baptism.The story of Joseph and Mary is not irrelevant. There is a parallel in that we see that the consummation of marriage may not occur on the same day as the marriage, just as water baptism may not occur on the day we were saved. No one here is saying that we want there to be a gap of time between salvation and baptism - but to suggest that someone's salvation is invalid because there was such a gap - again, that goes beyond what the scripture says.
Baptism does not occur BEFORE salvation, either. Salvation occurs DURING salvation, not before and not after.Actually there are NO scriptures that tell us that baptism must occur before salvation.
There is no verse in all of Scripture that says that salvation occurs before salvation. Just stating that we must believe to be saved does not negate other passages, like Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14 and others that state that we receive salvation during baptism.On the contrary, there are many that tell us just the opposite. None of your go-to verses show that, except in your imagination. But in your own words, even if there were 100,000 verses that say that baptism must precede salvation, and only one or two say the opposite - we still cannot deny the truth of the one or two.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Then why does it say that we die to sin IN BAPTISM? Why does it say that we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH? These things happen during baptism, not before.I also believe the Romans 6 baptism is water baptism.. but that it is still a picture of the salvation that has happened before it.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is no faith in Jesus without obedience to what He says leads to receiving salvation. If you don't obey Him, then you don't really trust (have faith in) Him.The object of the faith that saves us is Jesus Christ.. not things we do for works, including water baptism.
We place our faith in the object of our faith-- Jesus.. who responds by sealing us with His Holy Spirit. Without placing our faith in Jesus.. .there is no conversion.
It's not about the water baptism.. but the object of our faith. And that is Jesus Christ.
Because baptism is the representation of His death and resurrection. We go under the water.. its showing death...we come out..its showing rising again.Then why does it say that we die to sin IN BAPTISM? Why does it say that we are baptized INTO HIS DEATH? These things happen during baptism, not before.
Full immersion baptism also allows someone to join a local body of believers..the NT church.. so we enter the body of Christ (not all redeemed) through baptism.
1 co 12.. is describing the local church..not all redeemed.
Gods first step of His will is not a work..but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.There is no faith in Jesus without obedience to what He says leads to receiving salvation. If you don't obey Him, then you don't really trust (have faith in) Him.
John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The old man, the man dead in sin, goes into the water and there is separated from sin and brought back to life in Christ, and arises from the water a new creation, washed white and blemish free, and clothed with Christ and adopted as children of God (Eph 5:26-26, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).Because baptism is the representation of His death and resurrection. We go under the water.. its showing death...we come out..its showing rising again.
Baptism (from the Greek baptizo (verb) and baptima (noun) means immersion. There is no need to qualify it with "full immersion", because it is not baptism without full immersion (that is like saying "wet water").Full immersion baptism also allows someone to join a local body of believers..the NT church.. so we enter the body of Christ (not all redeemed) through baptism.
1 co 12.. is describing the local church..not all redeemed.
1 Cor 12 is not about the local congregation. If one is part of the local Church, then they are part of the global Church, and if one is part of the global Church then they should be welcomed into the local Church freely. We do not have to be rebaptized if we change our membership from one local congregation of the Church to another. It is the global Church that we enter when we are baptized, because that is when we go from lost to saved, dead to alive, stained to pure, etc. Only those who have been born again (which happens during water baptism) are saved, and all those who are saved are part of the global Church.
Yes, we must first believe in Jesus in order to be saved, but belief (intellectual assent) alone does not save. Rom 10:9-10 is clear that a verbal confession (that must also be public (Matt 10:32) must come before salvation is received because the confession RESULTS IN receiving salvation. Repentance is also required before salvation is received because Acts 3:19 says that repentance must be done SO THAT your sins may be washed away. Baptism is also required before salvation is received (salvation being received during baptism) as we are told in Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16.Gods first step of His will is not a work..but believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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