He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Doug Brents]

First point.. a mute person can't verbally call on the name of the Lord.

Totally irrelevant. The mute deserve condemnation just as much as any of the rest of humanity. Their disability does not give them the pass on any of the requirements God set on redemption. But I believe that God accepts that their "mouth", their method of communication, is their hands (through sign language).

It's inward belief, not the outward mouth moving.

The calling is expressing inner belief. They don't HAVE to verbally express.

Go thru the book of John and compare with Acts and Romans 10.

Without the outward expression the inner belief is not alive, not real, not effective. As James says, actions are the soul that gives life to faith, that complete faith, and without action inner belief is meaningless.

 

[Adherent]

The circumstances of everyone's salvation experience is different. You may be in a place where you can't give an outward expression of your inward conversion. You don't have to shout from the rooftops that you found Jesus, but it will still show in how you live your life.

And let's say you start attending church and making friends and telling them about your salvation experience. And they tell you they were having a baptismal ceremony at the end of the month maybe you should sign up for.

There you go...

 

[Doug Brents]

The circumstances of everyone's salvation experience is different. You may be in a place where you can't give an outward expression of your inward conversion.

This statement assumes an unBiblical position. Salvation is not received without the "outward expression" (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21), and there is no "inward conversion" without the Holy Spirit's action which takes place during water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14).

You don't have to shout from the rooftops that you found Jesus, but it will still show in how you live your life.

Now, this is true.

And let's say you start attending church and making friends and telling them about your salvation experience. And they tell you they were having a baptismal ceremony at the end of the month maybe you should sign up for.

Please show me anywhere in Scripture where there was a "baptismal ceremony at the end of the month". This is a modern practice that does not follow the example given by the first century Church. There was always haste, urgency, and a strong desire to obey Christ as soon as possible. The modern practice of waiting weeks or months before there is a mass baptismal ceremony demonstrates a gross defiance of God, and a lack of faith in His commands.

 

[Adherent]

Baptism is a public declaration of the work the Lord has already accomplished within, and doesn’t accomplish or seal your salvation. Your interpretation is not true to the facts of Scripture. Throughout the book of Acts, forgiveness is linked to repentance, not baptism. Baptism follows salvation; it does not cause it.

There are no shortcuts or religious rituals like baptism that can achieve salvation—in fact, it’s not a product of human works at all. As Paul writes in his letter to the Ephesians, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

The ritual of baptism is something a person does to commemorate is salvation. Therefore it's a work of man. It does show our obedience.

 

[Doug Brents]

Baptism is a public declaration of the work the Lord has already accomplished within, and doesn’t accomplish or seal your salvation. Your interpretation is not true to the facts of Scripture. Throughout the book of Acts, forgiveness is linked to repentance, not baptism. Baptism follows salvation; it does not cause it.

Rom 6:1-7 - IN BAPTISM we die to sin and are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Col 2:11-14 - IN BAPTISM our sins are cut from us by the Holy Spirit and we are united to Jesus' resurrection.

There are no shortcuts or religious rituals like baptism that can achieve salvation—in fact, it’s not a product of human works at all. As Paul writes in his letter to the Ephesians, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast” Ephesians 2:8-9

The shortest (and only) cut to salvation is through Jesus' blood, which is the power that removes our sins in water baptism, because that is the source of the power that the Holy Spirit uses to remove our sins from us (Col 2:11-14). Not as a result of works, but as a result of our faith (which is not real/alive/effective until it includes actions of obedience (James 2:24, 26).

The ritual of baptism is something a person does to commemorate is salvation. Therefore it's a work of man. It does show our obedience.

Communion commemorates and brings to our remembrance our salvation. But baptism is the point at which salvation is received.

 

[360watt]

Totally irrelevant. The mute deserve condemnation just as much as any of the rest of humanity. Their disability does not give them the pass on any of the requirements God set on redemption. But I believe that God accepts that their "mouth", their method of communication, is their hands (through sign language).

Without the outward expression the inner belief is not alive, not real, not effective. As James says, actions are the soul that gives life to faith, that complete faith, and without action inner belief is meaningless.

The examples in James of works, are from those who already have faith. They could have not done their works and still had faith.

Abraham was declared righteous without works before offering up his son Isaac.

Jesus spoke of OT saints testifying of Himself. The scriptures Jesus talks about is the Old Testament.

But with water baptism, Peter says that it does not put away the filth of the flesh.

Eternal salvation though..does put away the filth of the flesh by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus saves us through the Holy Spirit, not our behaviour of keeping commands, including water baptism.

Also.. 'save' doesn't always mean 'deliver from sin', in the Bible. It can mean 'rescue from trouble ', 'salvage' or 'deliver' .. so can apply to non salvation experiences.

So baptism can be part of a Christian 'salvaging their whole life' to Christ. Not delivering them eternally, but part of full maturity in Christ.

I can see this never ending in agreement, but at least you reason it out, where Truther was giving no logical explanation.

 

[Doug Brents]

The examples in James of works, are from those who already have faith. They could have not done their works and still had faith.

Wrong. That faith would have been dead. Can dead faith save? James even asks that question, with the obvious answer being, NO!

Abraham was declared righteous without works before offering up his son Isaac.

Wrong again. He was declared righteous because of his obedience (works of faith) from the moment God told him to leave Ur.

But with water baptism, Peter says that it does not put away the filth of the flesh.

1 Pet 3:21 does not talk about the "filth of the flesh" as if it were the works of darkness. It says "dirt from the flesh". It is not washing the body clean, but is washing the spirit clean through faith in Christ. This matches what Paul said in Col 2:11-14, that it is the Holy Spirit cutting sin from us during baptism, and again in Rom 6:1-7 where he says that we die to sin in baptism.

Eternal salvation though..does put away the filth of the flesh by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

Which is exactly what happens when we are baptized.

Jesus saves us through the Holy Spirit, not our behaviour of keeping commands, including water baptism.

Jesus put salvation on the table through His death. But we must receive it, which He says is done through repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism.

Also.. 'save' doesn't always mean 'deliver from sin', in the Bible. It can mean 'rescue from trouble ', 'salvage' or 'deliver' .. so can apply to non salvation experiences.

Very true, which is why when I began my study of salvation 8 or 10 years ago now, I found everywhere in the NT where "save", "salvation", "removal of sins", "remission of sins", "forgiveness", "redemption", and any other synonym could be found. Then I removed all the ones that did not refer to salvation from sin and going to Heaven. Then, understanding that all of the NT Scripture is equal and cannot contradict, I looked at all the things that Scripture says "lead to", "result in", or are "required to receive" salvation. The resulting list is very short:
1. believe in Jesus/the Gospel (good news) of His offering of salvation,
2. repent of (turn away from) our sins, and
3. be baptized in water
That's it. Nothing else in Scripture leads to receiving salvation, but these three things are absolutely required.

I can see this never ending in agreement, but at least you reason it out, where Truther was giving no logical explanation.

The only agreement possible is that you submit to Christ's Word and what He says is required.
I will not discuss other members either here or in personal chat. But I will say that I do try to give only properly reasoned, supported, and true arguments as directly from Scripture as I can. I see so many arguments from your side (not necessarily from you) that discount clear, direct, obvious Scriptural statements in favor of other statements that are not as clear or the meaning of which are adjusted by the clearer statements.

One example of this is Eph 2:8-9.
Many people take this passage to mean that there is no physical action that man must do that leads to receiving salvation.
But when we consider that Rom 10:9-10 is very clear that confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth results in receiving salvation, we must adjust the understanding of Eph 2:8-9. It cannot mean that there is no physical action that leads to receiving salvation, as that would create a contradiction. So it must mean something else.

 

[Adherent]

Rom 6:1-7 - IN BAPTISM we die to sin and are united to Jesus' death and resurrection.
Col 2:11-14 - IN BAPTISM our sins are cut from us by the Holy Spirit and we are united to Jesus' resurrection.

The shortest (and only) cut to salvation is through Jesus' blood, which is the power that removes our sins in water baptism, because that is the source of the power that the Holy Spirit uses to remove our sins from us (Col 2:11-14). Not as a result of works, but as a result of our faith (which is not real/alive/effective until it includes actions of obedience (James 2:24, 26).

Communion commemorates and brings to our remembrance our salvation. But baptism is the point at which salvation is received.

You're thinking about salvation. Water baptism is a complete different thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

You're thinking about salvation. Water baptism is a complete different thing.

What is salvation? Forgiveness of sin, yes? Reunification with God, yes? Being raised from the death our our soul to new life, yes?

What happens during baptism? According to Rom 6:1-7, we die to sin and are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, and we receive new life in Christ. According to Col 2:11-14, the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and we are made alive with Christ. John 3:5 says that we enter into the Kingdom of God through being born of water and the Spirit (water baptism and the Holy Spirit removing our sin). Salvation occurs during water baptism.

 

[Adherent]

What happens during water baptism? You make a Outward public Confession to a Inward transformation that occurred during salvation. It's a ceremony it can't save you.

Salvation does not occur during water baptism. You're holding on to a false doctrine called baptism regeneration.

 

[360watt]

Yes, inward belief is where salvation happens. Not in acts of service.

Justification by works is referring to works that accompany salvation, that God approves of. Baptism by immersion is one of these justified works. But it is not binding on eternal salvation.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..that is salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

What happens during water baptism? You make a Outward public Confession to a Inward transformation that occurred during salvation. It's a ceremony it can't save you.

Salvation does not occur during water baptism. You're holding on to a false doctrine called baptism regeneration.

Yes, inward belief is where salvation happens. Not in acts of service.

Justification by works is referring to works that accompany salvation, that God approves of. Baptism by immersion is one of these justified works. But it is not binding on eternal salvation.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..that is salvation.

You guys go ahead and cling to your false doctrine that defies God's Word and ignores direct statements in Scripture. I will stick with what Scripture says, and it says that salvation happens during water baptism. Just as Naaman was cleansed from leprosy, not by being immersed, but during being immersed, so we are cleansed from sin not by being immersed, but during being immersed.

 

[mailmandan]

You guys go ahead and cling to your false doctrine that defies God's Word and ignores direct statements in Scripture. I will stick with what Scripture says, and it says that salvation happens during water baptism. Just as Naaman was cleansed from leprosy, not by being immersed, but during being immersed, so we are cleansed from sin not by being immersed, but during being immersed.

We can see that your church of Christ indoctrination runs deep. In regard to Naaman, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of receiving remission of sins in water (being immersed 7 times in the Jordan river) we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. *Read about it in (Luke 5:12-15). *No water is found here.

Naaman was not even a believer until "after" dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (verse 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD and not salvation in water. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by water but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)

 

[Doug Brents]

We can see that your church of Christ indoctrination runs deep. In regard to Naaman, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of receiving remission of sins in water (being immersed 7 times in the Jordan river) we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. *Read about it in (Luke 5:12-15). *No water is found here.

Naaman was not even a believer until "after" dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (verse 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

Naaman did not receive forgiveness of sin from dipping in Jordan. He was not promised remission of sin by dipping in Jordan. He was promised remission of leprosy (another disease that is impossible for man to cure, even today). The reference to him is not in what was cleansed, but in the obedience that was required to receive it. The same is true with the widow who baked her last cake for the prophet and her oil and flour did not run out until the end of the famine. The same it true of the widow who poured the oil into every jar she could find to pay her debts and keep her son from slavery. The same is true of the Israelites taking of the Promised Land starting with the fall of the walls of Jericho (and there is no water in any of those stories). It is not the water, but the obedience to God in what He commands that is essential.

The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD and not salvation in water. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by water but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out. (2 Kings 5:15)

If Jesus is your Lord, then you will obey His commandments. If you do not obey His commandments, then He is not your Lord.

He commanded that His Apostles (and through them, all other disciples of His) baptize (Matt 28:19). He said that those who are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). He told us through His Apostle's writings that baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21), that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ through baptism (Rom 6:1-7), that our sin is cut from us and we are united to Christ through baptism (Col 2:11-14), and that no one will enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) except through being born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

 

[Frank]

If Jesus is your Lord, then you will obey His commandments. If you do not obey His commandments, then He is not your Lord.

I would say try to obey his commandments because we all fall short of the glory of God. We're not to ignore them but do the best you possibly can and when we fall short ask for forgiveness.

Take this one for example.

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35

Remember we're a working progress.

 

[mailmandan]

Naaman did not receive forgiveness of sin from dipping in Jordan. He was not promised remission of sin by dipping in Jordan.

Amen! So, water baptism is not a good parallel to support your argument pertaining to water baptism.

He was promised remission of leprosy (another disease that is impossible for man to cure, even today). The reference to him is not in what was cleansed, but in the obedience that was required to receive it. The same is true with the widow who baked her last cake for the prophet and her oil and flour did not run out until the end of the famine. The same it true of the widow who poured the oil into every jar she could find to pay her debts and keep her son from slavery. The same is true of the Israelites taking of the Promised Land starting with the fall of the walls of Jericho (and there is no water in any of those stories). It is not the water, but the obedience to God in what He commands that is essential.

Don't confuse receiving blessings with receiving eternal salvation.

If Jesus is your Lord, then you will obey His commandments. If you do not obey His commandments, then He is not your Lord.

He commanded that His Apostles (and through them, all other disciples of His) baptize (Matt 28:19). He said that those who are baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16). He told us through His Apostle's writings that baptism saves us (1 Pet 3:21), that we die to sin and are resurrected with Christ through baptism (Rom 6:1-7), that our sin is cut from us and we are united to Christ through baptism (Col 2:11-14), and that no one will enter the Kingdom of God (be saved) except through being born again by water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of His commandments? Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 24/7? Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) the commandments BECAUSE we know Him and not in order to know Him. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

In Matthew 28:19, we have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. In verse 20, Jesus goes on to say, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Baptism and obeying everything Jesus has commanded "follows" having become disciples.

In Luke 7:29, we read - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Water baptism did not make them become disciples, but their decision to become disciples was signified in baptism.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

In regard to Colossians 2:11-14, circumcision made without hands is of the heart, by the Spirit (Romans 2:29) just as Spirit baptism is. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) What is signified in water baptism is not procured in water baptism. Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. Did you see that? The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5) So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

 

[Doug Brents]

Amen! So, water baptism is not a good parallel to support your argument pertaining to water baptism.

Actually, it is. The prophet gave direction to Naaman of what it would take to cleanse his leprosy. Naaman did what was instructed and was cleansed. If he had failed to do what was instructed he would not have received the offered cleansing.
God, through Jesus and His Apostles, has given us direction on what it will take to cleanse our sins. If we do what is instructed we will be cleansed. If we fail to do what is instructed we will not receive the offered cleansing.

Don't confuse receiving blessings with receiving eternal salvation.

There is no confusion at all. Eternal salvation is the ultimate blessing, but it is a blessing of God.

Have you flawlessly obeyed all of His commandments? Do you claim to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 24/7?

I was a sinner deserving eternal damnation before I was baptized into Christ thus being redeemed from sin and death to being a child of God. That does not mean that I have not continued to sin, but because I continually strive to walk in the Light, His blood continually cleanses me from all sin.

Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) the commandments BECAUSE we know Him and not in order to know Him. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This is descriptive of genuine believers) 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (That is descriptive of unbelievers)

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

Not all of His commandments are toward those who are already His. Rom 10:9-10 says that confessing Him as Lord RESULTS in salvation. This is not an act that flows out from being saved, but results in being saved.

In Matthew 28:19, we have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations and baptize them. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. In verse 20, Jesus goes on to say, "and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." Baptism and obeying everything Jesus has commanded "follows" having become disciples.

Being a disciple is not synonymous with salvation. Mark 16:16, which is the recording of another Apostle of the same statement of Jesus from a different perspective, says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. "And" indicates that both of the conditions must be fulfilled before the result occurs.

In Luke 7:29, we read - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Water baptism did not make them become disciples, but their decision to become disciples was signified in baptism.

This is in reference to John's baptism, not Jesus' baptism. Jesus' baptism is for (in order to receive) salvation (Acts 2:38).

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

That is pure nonsense. Everyone is already condemned because we have not accepted God as God, and made our own rules for life (sin). Salvation requires believe in Jesus, but salvation is not received at the point of belief. Salvation is received at the point of water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 22:16).

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I am guessing that the list of numbers you listed above are references to passages in John?
If so, you conveniently overlook John 3:36. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
What does this verse say is the opposite of belief? Failure to obey. If one believes, he obeys. If one fails to obey, he doesn't believe. If you believe, then you will be baptized, and baptism is the point at which the Holy Spirit cuts sin from you, you die to sin, and you are resurrected with Christ Jesus (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7).

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you),

Correct, baptism is not about removing dirt from the body.

"but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

But that "transaction" does not take place without the baptism, for it is in the baptism that the appeal to God for a good conscience is made.

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

Jesus is our "Ark", and we enter into Him through obedience to Him in passing through baptism.

In regard to Colossians 2:11-14, circumcision made without hands is of the heart, by the Spirit (Romans 2:29) just as Spirit baptism is.

And this happens when we are "buried with Him in baptism", not before.

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:12) What is signified in water baptism is not procured in water baptism. Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.

Dan, what is faith? Faith is not just the mental exercise of thinking that something is true. Faith requires action, because without action faith is dead (James 2:26). Dead faith is incapable of bringing salvation (James 2:14). Our salvation is not just signified in baptism but is received in baptism.

In John 3:5, Jesus said born of water and the Spirit. He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit and He also did not say unless one is water baptized, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. Did you see that? The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.

Living water pours out from the Spirit who resides in our heart after we receive salvation. And that salvation is received when one is born of water. The living water does not pour out from our heart until after we are born of water, which the Spirit accomplishes by circumcising our heart (Col 2:11-14).

If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

"Baptism" means "immersion". Yes, it is ridiculous to says "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living immersion".

Also "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5) So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Not every application of "water" implies "baptism". But because of the statements in 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36, and others, we know that water baptism in inextricably linked in Scripture with the moment of salvation.

 

[Fool4Christ]

I was a sinner deserving eternal damnation before I was baptized into Christ thus being redeemed from sin and death to being a child of God. That does not mean that I have not continued to sin, but because I continually strive to walk in the Light, His blood continually cleanses me from all sin.

Correct it's when we don't walk in the light we get in trouble. then in order to be cleansed we have to confess sins,

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:8-9

 

[mailmandan]

Actually, it is. The prophet gave direction to Naaman of what it would take to cleanse his leprosy. Naaman did what was instructed and was cleansed. If he had failed to do what was instructed he would not have received the offered cleansing.
God, through Jesus and His Apostles, has given us direction on what it will take to cleanse our sins. If we do what is instructed we will be cleansed. If we fail to do what is instructed we will not receive the offered cleansing.

There is no confusion at all. Eternal salvation is the ultimate blessing, but it is a blessing of God.

I was a sinner deserving eternal damnation before I was baptized into Christ thus being redeemed from sin and death to being a child of God. That does not mean that I have not continued to sin, but because I continually strive to walk in the Light, His blood continually cleanses me from all sin.

Not all of His commandments are toward those who are already His. Rom 10:9-10 says that confessing Him as Lord RESULTS in salvation. This is not an act that flows out from being saved, but results in being saved.

Being a disciple is not synonymous with salvation. Mark 16:16, which is the recording of another Apostle of the same statement of Jesus from a different perspective, says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. "And" indicates that both of the conditions must be fulfilled before the result occurs.

This is in reference to John's baptism, not Jesus' baptism. Jesus' baptism is for (in order to receive) salvation (Acts 2:38).

That is pure nonsense. Everyone is already condemned because we have not accepted God as God, and made our own rules for life (sin). Salvation requires believe in Jesus, but salvation is not received at the point of belief. Salvation is received at the point of water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 22:16).

I am guessing that the list of numbers you listed above are references to passages in John?
If so, you conveniently overlook John 3:36. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
What does this verse say is the opposite of belief? Failure to obey. If one believes, he obeys. If one fails to obey, he doesn't believe. If you believe, then you will be baptized, and baptism is the point at which the Holy Spirit cuts sin from you, you die to sin, and you are resurrected with Christ Jesus (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7).

Correct, baptism is not about removing dirt from the body.

But that "transaction" does not take place without the baptism, for it is in the baptism that the appeal to God for a good conscience is made.

Jesus is our "Ark", and we enter into Him through obedience to Him in passing through baptism.

And this happens when we are "buried with Him in baptism", not before.

Dan, what is faith? Faith is not just the mental exercise of thinking that something is true. Faith requires action, because without action faith is dead (James 2:26). Dead faith is incapable of bringing salvation (James 2:14). Our salvation is not just signified in baptism but is received in baptism.

Living water pours out from the Spirit who resides in our heart after we receive salvation. And that salvation is received when one is born of water. The living water does not pour out from our heart until after we are born of water, which the Spirit accomplishes by circumcising our heart (Col 2:11-14).

"Baptism" means "immersion". Yes, it is ridiculous to says "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living immersion".

Not every application of "water" implies "baptism". But because of the statements in 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 22:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36, and others, we know that water baptism in inextricably linked in Scripture with the moment of salvation.

You are unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination. If the truth is what you were sincerely looking for then you would have already found it in the numerous posts that multiple believers (including myself) have already shared with you. If accommodating your biased church of Christ doctrine (with a heavy emphasis on your watered-down gospel) is the only thing that you are interested in, then you will not find the truth no matter how many times that we share it with you. Sadly, your beliefs are fixed, and your ears are dull of hearing.

 

[mailmandan]

Correct it's when we don't walk in the light we get in trouble. then in order to be cleansed we have to confess sins,

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I John 1:8-9

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain folks seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin, we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)