He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Samson]

There is a part of this that needs to be addressed.. and that is Holy Spirit baptism at salvation. The thing with this.. is sometimes you get an entire group getting this.. such as the disciples who were already believers being 'baptised by the Holy Spirit and fire'.

Whether the Holy Spirit is working with an individual or a group.. changes the context. What happens to a corporate gathering of believers.. is a different work of the Holy Spirit to an individual. Another example is Acts 19...with a group of disciples who had already believed. They were asked if they had received the Holy Spirit by Paul. So the question is.. is this salvation being talked about.. or the Holy Spirit's work on a corporate gathering?

An entire group receiving the Holy Spirit.. is a group becoming a local NT church. It isn't salvation.

That's exactly correct. And we've gone over that one quite a few times in this thread, it's just being ignored.

 

[Samson]

The words "you must be baptized to be saved" that you added are not in that verse. That's your commentary on the verse.

Jesus is simply stating a fact about something that has already happened -it is in the past tense: "The one who has believed (past tense) and has been baptized (past tense) will be saved.

He is saying nothing here about the a future requirement like: If you want to be saved (future), you must believe and you must be baptized.

He doesn't believe in commentaries. According to his earlier post they are of the devil and the catholic pope. Not to mention well educated people that have gone to seminary school and to college, studying the bible for most of their adult life. Can't trust them either.

 

[dwight92070]

That's exactly correct. And we've gone over that one quite a few times in this thread, it's just being ignored.

Maybe you should

There is a part of this that needs to be addressed.. and that is Holy Spirit baptism at salvation. The thing with this.. is sometimes you get an entire group getting this.. such as the disciples who were already believers being 'baptised by the Holy Spirit and fire'.

Whether the Holy Spirit is working with an individual or a group.. changes the context. What happens to a corporate gathering of believers.. is a different work of the Holy Spirit to an individual. Another example is Acts 19...with a group of disciples who had already believed. They were asked if they had received the Holy Spirit by Paul. So the question is.. is this salvation being talked about.. or the Holy Spirit's work on a corporate gathering?

An entire group receiving the Holy Spirit.. is a group becoming a local NT church. It isn't salvation.

I would suggest starting a new thread with that topic.

 

[Samson]

Maybe you should


I would suggest starting a new thread with that topic.

That's a good idea that thought ran through my mind yesterday.

 

[Truther]

Your misinterpretation of Acts 2:37-38 is a lie.

Oh I believe you tell them that all right. The problem is you're telling them a lie. Because you're telling them you're misinterpretation of that verse.

Keep coming back.

It is a lie to disobey Acts 2:38.

It is a movement sponsored by the RCC

 

[Truther]

The words "you must be baptized to be saved" that you added are not in that verse. That's your commentary on the verse.

Jesus is simply stating a fact about something that has already happened -it is in the past tense: "The one who has believed (past tense) and has been baptized (past tense) will be saved.

He is saying nothing here about the a future requirement like: If you want to be saved (future), you must believe and you must be baptized.

…and is baptized shall be saved is in that verse.

You fellas think it says he that believes and is saved shall not need baptism.

Boink

 

[Truther]

Peter said it right there - baptism is a figure, a picture of being buried and raised with Christ.

Yep, and you aren’t represented by the figure since you reject Acts 2:38.
You are in the spiritual panhandle

 

[Truther]

You know what I said. Water baptism is not part of salvation it comes afterwards. It's been explained to you many times over here. But you insist on playing games and acting like you don't know what anybody's talking about. I must admit you picked the perfect Avatar.

This?….

16 He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized?

 

[Truther]

I’ve heard of those that teach replacement theology, but you guys teach reverse theology

 

[Truther]

He doesn't believe in commentaries. According to his earlier post they are of the devil and the catholic pope. Not to mention well educated people that have gone to seminary school and to college, studying the bible for most of their adult life. Can't trust them either.

Correction. Commentaries are the means of mass deception.
If one understandable verse to a 1st century reader needs paragraphs of explanations to modern readers, it is most likely to be biased and mostly fabricated.

Thousands of belief systems are birthed via commentaries.

Partially literate, 1st century believers never hear commentaries or PHDs.

That is a modern phenomenon.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did the new testament church start before Matthew chapter 16?

It started at John 20:22 when the Holy SPirit indwelled the disciples, and was empowered for ministry when the holy Spirit came UPON IT at acts 2:4.

 

[Truther]

It started at John 20:22 when the Holy SPirit indwelled the disciples, and was empowered for ministry when the holy Spirit came UPON IT at acts 2:4.

Hi Bob

Incorrect. The NT church began in Acts 2.

You know, …“this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel…”.

The last days church started at Pentecost.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Bob

Incorrect. The NT church began in Acts 2.

You know, …“this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel…”.

The last days church started at Pentecost.

Correction: The Church began when the Disciples were first indwelled by the Holy Spirit, making them the first Christians. Pentecost was when the already existent church was (in Jesus' words) "endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49) at Pentecost.

Some "Theologians" (generally "Pentehostiles") have different private interpretations, but it's only "theology" so no biggie.

 

[Truther]

Correction: The Church began when the Disciples were first indwelled by the Holy Spirit, making them the first Christians. Pentecost was when the already existent church was (in Jesus' words) "endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49) at Pentecost.

Some "Theologians" (generally "Pentehostiles") have different private interpretations, but it's only "theology" so no biggie.

No Bob, it is a biggie. Jesus said… Beginning at Jerusalem. This is speaking about Acts chapter 2. The disciples were powerless before that. He told them they would receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon them, speaking of Acts chapter 2.

 

[dwight92070]

No Bob, it is a biggie. Jesus said… Beginning at Jerusalem. This is speaking about Acts chapter 2. The disciples were powerless before that. He told them they would receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon them, speaking of Acts chapter 2.

One false interpretation begets another one. They were not powerless before Acts 2 - that's your obsession showing again.
Matthew 10:1 "Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every sickness."
Also John 14:17: "... the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you."
Both of these verses were before Pentecost. They already had the Holy Spirit with them, and as Bob already said, they received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20:22 - still before Pentecost.
Sure, apparently they received more power at Pentecost, but they already had power.
By the way, I don't know any New Testament verse that tells us specifically when the "New Testament" church began. Wasn't the church in the New Testament simply a continuation of the remnant of Israel, which was the Old Testament church?
Jesus did say, "This is the New Covenant in My blood."so I suppose we could say that the New Covenant began at His crucifixion.

 

[Truther]

One false interpretation begets another one. They were not powerless before Acts 2 - that's your obsession showing again.
Matthew 10:1 "Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every sickness."
Also John 14:17: "... the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you."
Both of these verses were before Pentecost. They already had the Holy Spirit with them, and as Bob already said, they received the indwelling Holy Spirit in John 20:22 - still before Pentecost.
Sure, apparently they received more power at Pentecost, but they already had power.
By the way, I don't know any New Testament verse that tells us specifically when the "New Testament" church began. Wasn't the church in the New Testament simply a continuation of the remnant of Israel, which was the Old Testament church?
Jesus did say, "This is the New Covenant in My blood."so I suppose we could say that the New Covenant began at His crucifixion.

Acts 1:8…..But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The power was future tense, and at Acts chapter 2. Beginning at Jerusalem.

 

[Don Miller]

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
Galatians 5:19-21

The most common cause of spiritual weakness in a Christian, or a church, is a failure to recognize the flesh in its disguise of religious zeal. Like Peter flashing a sword in Gethsemane, the fleshly Christian thinks he is doing God's will and fighting God's battles for him.

Any works that we perform an believe adds to the finished work of Christ on the cross is selfish ambition. They may seem right in the eyes of man but salvation is by faith alone, not by faith plus works

 

[dwight92070]

Yep, and you aren’t represented by the figure since you reject Acts 2:38.
You are in the spiritual panhandle

As I have said several times, we do not reject Acts 2:38, nor do we reject the true meaning of it. But since our interpretation doesn't line up with yours, you accuse us of rejecting the verse itself. That is your false overreaction to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

 

[Truther]

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.
Galatians 5:19-21

The most common cause of spiritual weakness in a Christian, or a church, is a failure to recognize the flesh in its disguise of religious zeal. Like Peter flashing a sword in Gethsemane, the fleshly Christian thinks he is doing God's will and fighting God's battles for him.

Any works that we perform an believe adds to the finished work of Christ on the cross is selfish ambition. They may seem right in the eyes of man but salvation is by faith alone, not by faith plus works

Faith without works is dead being alone.

Jesus even said that… He said “he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. That is faith and works combined to save someone.

 

[Truther]

As I have said several times, we do not reject Acts 2:38, nor do we reject the true meaning of it. But since our interpretation doesn't line up with yours, you accuse us of rejecting the verse itself. That is your false overreaction to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

If you do not say the name of Jesus during water baptism, you do not obey Acts 2:38. Question, do you actually say “I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ”?

If you do, excellent. Edit by admin