He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

[Julie]

Are Romans six, are we buried with Christ by the Holy Spirit?

After comparing Adam and Christ and what their choices brought into the world, Paul in Romans 6 now turns to ask if Christians should continue in sin once they have been saved. He gives several reasons why we must not: we died to sin's power over us; we are now servants to righteousness; and what good did sin ever bring to you, anyway? Paul will transition in Romans 7 to a discussion of what it means to be released from the law of Moses.

 

[TomL]

After comparing Adam and Christ and what their choices brought into the world, Paul in Romans 6 now turns to ask if Christians should continue in sin once they have been saved. He gives several reasons why we must not: we died to sin's power over us; we are now servants to righteousness; and what good did sin ever bring to you, anyway? Paul will transition in Romans 7 to a discussion of what it means to be released from the law of Moses.

Paul is not speaking of a baptism into water but a real baptism into Christ by the power of the holy Spirit

 

[Julie]

KJ21. The like figure to this, even baptism, doth also now save us…

Yes or no?

The only baptism that saves people is dry—the spiritual one into the death as well as the resurrection of Christ—of those who appeal to God to place them into the spiritual ark of salvation safety Romans10:9–10

Water baptism does not save, it is the Holy Spirit’s baptizing the sinner safely into Jesus Christ that forever rescues the sinner from hell and brings him securely to heaven.

 

[Julie]

Paul is not speaking of a baptism into water but a real baptism into Christ by the power of the holy Spirit

That's exactly right.

 

[TomL]

That's exactly right.

Glad you agree

 

[brightfame52]

You still ignored the condition

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[TomL]

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You still ignored the condition

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[brightfame52]

You still ignored the condition

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[TomL]

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You still ignored the condition

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[brightfame52]

You still ignored the condition

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Truther]

Once again what did Jesus do for you since he didn't save you from your sins?

Jesus saved me from my sins when I agreed to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The remission of sins. Does that look familiar?

 

[Truther]

I get it water baptism is your savior and not Jesus Christ

When the name of Jesus was invoked during my baptism, that is when I was buried with the savior. You can’t be buried with the savior with a simple mind religion. You have to actually get in water in the name of Jesus.

 

[Truther]

Was Cornelius saved accepted by God before he was water baptized ?

Cornelius was filled with the Holy Ghost, then immediately commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins.

 

[Truther]

After comparing Adam and Christ and what their choices brought into the world, Paul in Romans 6 now turns to ask if Christians should continue in sin once they have been saved. He gives several reasons why we must not: we died to sin's power over us; we are now servants to righteousness; and what good did sin ever bring to you, anyway? Paul will transition in Romans 7 to a discussion of what it means to be released from the law of Moses.

Romans 6 tells us in the first six verses that we are buried with Christ in baptism. This is not buried with Christ by the Holy Ghost. For someone to say that this is speaking about Holy Ghost infilling, they are saying that the Holy Ghost killed us. Water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is our burial into Christ. It clearly says that. That is why you talked about other areas of the passage and not the area that we are speaking about.

 

[Doug Brents]

I can't go for that. Romans 6 is not talking about water baptism. it's talking about What happens symbolically when we believe in Christ. It's Paul explaining salvation not water baptism.

Julie, there is only one baptism of any significance in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6).
And according to 1 Pet 3:21 and Mark 16:16 that baptism is when we receive salvation.
And according to 1 Pet 3:21 and Acts 8:36 that baptism is baptism into water.
And according to Matt 28:19 that baptism is an act that man does.
And according to Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 that baptism is the point at which our sins are cut from us, and we are united to Christ in His resurrection.

So, according to all of those pieces of evidence, baptism in water is the point at which we are saved.

 

[Truther]

The only baptism that saves people is dry—the spiritual one into the death as well as the resurrection of Christ—of those who appeal to God to place them into the spiritual ark of salvation safety Romans10:9–10

Water baptism does not save, it is the Holy Spirit’s baptizing the sinner safely into Jesus Christ that forever rescues the sinner from hell and brings him securely to heaven.

In the like figure , baptism doth now save us…


This is speaking of water baptism. Read the whole passage. Talks about the ark and water. It does not indicate some silly type of dry baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

Okay let's go with a good analogy. Baptism is an outward expression of an inward conviction. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection.

That is not a good analogy, because there is nothing in Scripture that supports it. Baptism is not just an "outward expression of an inward conviction" according to Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 and 1 Pet 3:21. These passages state that it is in baptism that we are saved, that our sins are cut from us, that we are united to Christ Jesus' resurrection, and made part of His family. These things are part of what it means to be saved, and they don't happen before baptism, they happen during baptism.

 

[TomL]

Its in the context:

This is Salvation by Grace:

Its clear as day, election of grace is without works/conditions Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You ignore the conditions

Romans 11:4–5 (KJV 1900) — 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Now as in the past there is a condition

Romans 9:30–32 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

[Doug Brents]

Christ was not buried in water

There is no water in Rom 6:4

Whoever calls upon the lord will be saved

Whoever call upon the Lord will be saved, but how do we call on the Lord? Just calling Him Lord does not save (Matt 7:21). So how do we call on the name of the Lord and it result in salvation? By doing what He says (Matt 7:21).

You are correct that Rom 6:4 does not mention water.
But according to Eph 4:4-6 there is only one baptism of significance in the NT.
And according to 1 Pet 3:21 and Acts 8:36 that baptism is baptism into water.
And according to Matt 28:19 that baptism is an act that man does.
And according to Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 that baptism is the point at which our sins are cut from us, and we are united to Christ in His resurrection.
So the baptism in which we are saved does require water.

 

[Richard]

Cornelius was filled with the Holy Ghost, then immediately commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins.

Correct, he was saved first then he was baptized. It's good to see you're finally realizing the truth. Baptism didn't take away his sins it's a ceremony confirming that he was saved, that his sins were washed away by the blood of Jesus not water baptism.

Why, then, do some come to the conclusion that we must be baptized in order to be saved? Often, the discussion of whether or not this passage teaches baptism is required for salvation centers around the Greek word eis that is translated “for” in this passage. Those who hold to the belief that baptism is required for salvation are quick to point to this verse and the fact that it says “be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,” assuming that the word translated “for” in this verse means “in order to get.” However, in both Greek and English, there are many possible usages of the word “for.”

As an example, when one says “Take two aspirin for your headache,” it is obvious to everybody that it does not mean “take two aspirin in order to get your headache,” but instead to “take two aspirin because you already have a headache.” There are three possible meanings of the word “for” that might fit the context of Acts 2:38: 1--“in order to be, become, get, have, keep, etc.,” 2—“because of, as the result of,” or 3—“with regard to.” Since any one of the three meanings could fit the context of this passage, additional study is required in order to determine which one is correct.

We need to start by looking back to the original language and the meaning of the Greek word eis. This is a common Greek word (it is used 1774 times in the New Testament) that is translated many different ways. Like the English word “for” it can have several different meanings. So, again, we see at least two or three possible meanings of the passage, one that would seem to support that baptism is required for salvation and others that would not. While both the meanings of the Greek word eis are seen in different passages of Scripture, such noted Greek scholars as A.T. Robertson and J.R. Mantey have maintained that the Greek preposition eis in Acts 2:38 should be translated “because of” or “in view of,” and not “in order to,” or “for the purpose of.”

One example of how this preposition is used in other Scriptures is seen in Matthew 12:41 where the word eis communicates the “result” of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word eis). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, it would be possible that Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they already had believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins (John 1:12; John 3:14-18; John 5:24; John 11:25-26; Acts 10:43; Acts 13:39; Acts 16:31; Acts 26:18; Romans 10:9; Ephesians 1:12-14). This interpretation of the passage is also consistent with the message recorded in Peter’s next two sermons to unbelievers where he associates the forgiveness of sins with the act of repentance and faith in Christ without even mentioning baptism (Acts 3:17-26; Acts 4:8-12).
Got?