He that believes and is not water baptised is saved

Doug Brents said:
If you, and by extension they, believe that salvation occurs before baptism, and that the first act of obedience after salvation is baptism, then you are on the wrong side of Scripture. Violation of any one aspect of the Law constitutes violation of the whole Law (and this applies to all Laws: the Law of Moses, the Law of Christ, etc.), and so ignoring Scripture's mandate that salvation occurs during baptism constitutes ignoring the whole of the NT.

Justification is NOT by faith alone (James 2:24 - "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."). Faith without action is dead, and dead faith cannot bring life (salvation).

It is so much more than just a "welcoming ceremony". It is the moment when we die to sin (Rom 6:2-4), it is the moment when the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us (Col 2:11-12), it is the moment when we are united with Jesus' resurrection (Rom 6:4-7 , Col 2:13), it is the moment when our sins are washed away (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).
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What does the law have to do with it? Keeping them all couldn't save you because no one could keep the law except Jesus. So all that's just a dodge that you can go park in the garage.

Good Works are done after we are saved. The expression goes like this we do good works not to be saved. but because we are saved. I hope you have a two-car garage.

It's the moment we acknowledge to the bystanders that are watching you get baptized that you've accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
 
Believe said:
What does the law have to do with it? Keeping them all couldn't save you because no one could keep the law except Jesus. So all that's just a dodge that you can go park in the garage.
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No dodge at all. You are correct that keeping the Law, no matter what Law, perfectly won't save anyone, because everyone has already broken God's Law at least once, and once is all it takes to make you dead in sin. My point is that living in unrepentant rebellion in any point of the Law will prevent anyone from receiving salvation. If you are a thief, and you live a life of unrepentant theft, you cannot be saved, because salvation requires repentance. Before you can be saved, you must repent of ALL of your rebellion to God, and that includes refusing His will and instruction that salvation occurs at the point of baptism.
Believe said:
Good Works are done after we are saved. The expression goes like this we do good works not to be saved. but because we are saved. I hope you have a two-car garage.
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Baptism is not a "good work". As Jesus says in the parable, "So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”" Luke 17:10
Believe said:
It's the moment we acknowledge to the bystanders that are watching you get baptized that you've accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
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If you have not obeyed His command, then He is not your Lord. Again Jesus tells in a parable, "Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46
 
Doug Brents said:
No dodge at all. You are correct that keeping the Law, no matter what Law, perfectly won't save anyone, because everyone has already broken God's Law at least once, and once is all it takes to make you dead in sin. My point is that living in unrepentant rebellion in any point of the Law will prevent anyone from receiving salvation. If you are a thief, and you live a life of unrepentant theft, you cannot be saved, because salvation requires repentance. Before you can be saved, you must repent of ALL of your rebellion to God, and that includes refusing His will and instruction that salvation occurs at the point of baptism.

Baptism is not a "good work". As Jesus says in the parable, "So you too, when you do all the things which were commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”" Luke 17:10

If you have not obeyed His command, then He is not your Lord. Again Jesus tells in a parable, "Now why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46
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When you come to Jesus for salvation you ask him to forgive your sins. That would be all of your sins. That's common knowledge.
Jesus made it clear that he, and he alone, will decide who is saved and it is Jesus himself who will save them.

“…the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father”. (John 5:21-23)

“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matthew 28:18. See also Luke 10:22.)

“I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.” (John. 10:9)

Please note that, in all these verses, Jesus and only Jesus decides who will be saved. We are not saved by our own actions, our own faith, our own beliefs, or because we belong to a particular church or denomination. We are saved only because Jesus decides that he will save us. In this context it is important to remember that when God looks at us he looks at our heart:

“The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7)

Let me Ask you a question since you called Luke 6:46 what are your thoughts on lordship salvation?

Funny no mention of baptism.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You trust in God. Believes also in me.” (John 14:1)

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who Believes him will not perish but will have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

“I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever Believes in me will never be thirsty (John 6:35).

Anything that you add to what Jesus did on the cross to give you salvation is a work. It called works salvation. That's what you're talking about. That I'm not buying.
 
Believe said:
When you come to Jesus for salvation you ask him to forgive your sins. That would be all of your sins. That's common knowledge.
Jesus made it clear that he, and he alone, will decide who is saved and it is Jesus himself who will save them.

“…the Son gives life to whomever he wishes. The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father”. (John 5:21-23)

“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.” (John 17:1-2)

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” (Matthew 28:18. See also Luke 10:22.)

“I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.” (John. 10:9)

Please note that, in all these verses, Jesus and only Jesus decides who will be saved. We are not saved by our own actions, our own faith, our own beliefs, or because we belong to a particular church or denomination. We are saved only because Jesus decides that he will save us. In this context it is important to remember that when God looks at us he looks at our heart:

“The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” (1 Samuel 16:7)
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A couple of things that come to mind based on what you have said here.
First, God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are not the only ones who determine who is saved. If they were, then everyone would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But we know that the vast majority will not be saved, so there are other wills involved (Satan's and our own).

Second, Jesus does determine who will be saved, and He does so through identifying those who are obedient to His will. Those who obey Him receive His salvation, and those who do not obey Him do not receive His salvation.
Believe said:
Let me Ask you a question since you called Luke 6:46 what are your thoughts on lordship salvation?
Click to expand...
Most modern Americans have a really hard time understanding the word "Lord". We have never had a Lord in America, and so for the last 200+ years we have had the concept bred out of our mentality. But people who live in most of the rest of the world understand the term much more vividly than we ever will. The word "Lord" implies total control over his subjects: control of the living conditions, actions, advancement, resources, and even the very life of each subject. One who has Lordship over another can demand anything and everything from his subjects, and they are bound to deliver whatever service requested, regardless of the consequences to themselves: they, their possessions, their families, their everything belongs to the Lord. That is what Jesus demands of us. We are to be HIS! We are to follow His commands, conform to His will, live a life of sacrifice and mission as He did, and emulate His nature. If we are not continually striving to become more and more like Him every day, then we do not belong to Him.

If you call yourself His, but do not do what He says, then you are not really His, He is not your Lord, and you have no place in His Kingdom. If Jesus is not your Lord, then Satan is.
Believe said:
Funny no mention of baptism.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You trust in God. Believes also in me.” (John 14:1)

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, so that everyone who Believes him will not perish but will have eternal life.” (John 3:16)

“I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever Believes in me will never be thirsty (John 6:35).

Anything that you add to what Jesus did on the cross to give you salvation is a work. It called works salvation. That's what you're talking about. That I'm not buying.
Click to expand...
No, that is not "works salvation". When did God give the Land to the Israelites, before or after they crossed Jordan to take possession of it? Obviously, God gave it to them before they took it. But they did not have possession of it, they did not have the benefit of it, they were not able to reap the rewards of it, until they crossed Jordan, attacked, and conquered the people living there. Did their conquering the people there "earn" them the Land? No, it was already theirs; it was a gift from God. But before they could possess it, they had to obey God, and take the Land. We are in the same position: salvation has been purchased for us, and is a gift from God to us, but we must reach out and take it if we are to possess it. We take it by faith through obedience to Jesus' commands that He says lead to possessing it: Repentance, Confession of Him as Lord, and Baptism into Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
 
Doug Brents said:
A couple of things that come to mind based on what you have said here.
First, God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are not the only ones who determine who is saved. If they were, then everyone would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But we know that the vast majority will not be saved, so there are other wills involved (Satan's and our own).

Second, Jesus does determine who will be saved, and He does so through identifying those who are obedient to His will. Those who obey Him receive His salvation, and those who do not obey Him do not receive His salvation.

Most modern Americans have a really hard time understanding the word "Lord". We have never had a Lord in America, and so for the last 200+ years we have had the concept bred out of our mentality. But people who live in most of the rest of the world understand the term much more vividly than we ever will. The word "Lord" implies total control over his subjects: control of the living conditions, actions, advancement, resources, and even the very life of each subject. One who has Lordship over another can demand anything and everything from his subjects, and they are bound to deliver whatever service requested, regardless of the consequences to themselves: they, their possessions, their families, their everything belongs to the Lord. That is what Jesus demands of us. We are to be HIS! We are to follow His commands, conform to His will, live a life of sacrifice and mission as He did, and emulate His nature. If we are not continually striving to become more and more like Him every day, then we do not belong to Him.

If you call yourself His, but do not do what He says, then you are not really His, He is not your Lord, and you have no place in His Kingdom. If Jesus is not your Lord, then Satan is.

No, that is not "works salvation". When did God give the Land to the Israelites, before or after they crossed Jordan to take possession of it? Obviously, God gave it to them before they took it. But they did not have possession of it, they did not have the benefit of it, they were not able to reap the rewards of it, until they crossed Jordan, attacked, and conquered the people living there. Did their conquering the people there "earn" them the Land? No, it was already theirs; it was a gift from God. But before they could possess it, they had to obey God, and take the Land. We are in the same position: salvation has been purchased for us, and is a gift from God to us, but we must reach out and take it if we are to possess it. We take it by faith through obedience to Jesus' commands that He says lead to possessing it: Repentance, Confession of Him as Lord, and Baptism into Him in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
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Well we can agree on, Repentance And Jesus being our lord. But not on baptism. Hey, Two out of three ain't bad. I believe in baptism I just don't believe it saves you I think everyone should be baptized as an outward expression to an inward change. They've become A new creation And they are being obedient by getting baptized after they are saved.

The Israelites were too tired after walking around in the wilderness for 40 years on an 11-day journey to do any work salvation. Plus when Moses went up on the mountain to get the law their work salvation didn't work out too good for them there.

It's really a bad analogy because of the Israelites did terrible Start to finish. They even got our lord falsely charged and when pilot tried to turn them loose they yelled crucify him. So yeah bad analogy.
 
Doug Brents said:
First, God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are not the only ones who determine who is saved. If they were, then everyone would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But we know that the vast majority will not be saved, so there are other wills involved (Satan's and our own).

Second, Jesus does determine who will be saved, and He does so through identifying those who are obedient to His will. Those who obey Him receive His salvation, and those who do not obey Him do not receive His salvation.
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They have to be willing to believe on him for salvation. He looks at the heart, Do they really believe. Anyone can walk Down to the Altar and say the Sinners prayer and not really believe it from your hearts. Same with baptism.
 
brightfame52 said:
Boy you really dislike the Gospel of Gods Grace, Tulip
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Dislike is correct. gospel of God's grace is incorrect as is the rest of Calvinism.

Matthew 19:24, where Jesus says to his disciples: “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then what Jesus is saying makes no sense at all.

Of course if Gospel of Gods Grace were In fact Tulip and if Jesus were a Calvinist, He never would have suggested that it was harder for rich persons to be saved by God’s irresistible grace than poor persons. Their wills would be changed immediately and invincibly upon hearing God’s effectual call. It would be no harder for a rich person to be saved by God’s monergistic and irresistible calling than it would be for any other sinner.

But the real Jesus was suggesting that their salvation was tied in some measure to their response and commitment to His calling. They had to believe in him.
 
Ezra said:
Dislike is correct. gospel of God's grace is incorrect as is the rest of Calvinism.

Matthew 19:24, where Jesus says to his disciples: “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” What sense does this verse make in light of irresistible grace? Is Jesus saying it is harder for God to save a rich man than a poor one? How could that be? If everyone, without exception, only gets into the kingdom of God by God’s work alone without any required cooperation on his or her part, then what Jesus is saying makes no sense at all.

Of course if Gospel of Gods Grace were In fact Tulip and if Jesus were a Calvinist, He never would have suggested that it was harder for rich persons to be saved by God’s irresistible grace than poor persons. Their wills would be changed immediately and invincibly upon hearing God’s effectual call. It would be no harder for a rich person to be saved by God’s monergistic and irresistible calling than it would be for any other sinner.

But the real Jesus was suggesting that their salvation was tied in some measure to their response and commitment to His calling. They had to believe in him.
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You dislike TULIP you dislike the Gospel of Gods Grace
 
brightfame52 said:
They are inseparable, so you throwing out the Baby with the bath water !
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They're totally separate things.

The word “gospel” simply means “good news,” but we must understand that the gospel of Jesus Christ is not just good news, it is the good news. While we are all sinners (those who have failed to live up to God’s perfect standard), Jesus has provided a way for sinners to be pardoned instead of punished. Through Christ’s death and resurrection, we can have a relationship with God that transforms our lives forever when we place our trust in Jesus alone. Believe the good news that god loves you and wants to save me. Hold on to that and share it with others.

As for tulips, They do decompose and do need to be thrown out. They attract insects.
 

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