I know this to be true also BUT they all believe we are created at conception as sinners liable to the wages of sin, death, which proves sinfulness and that death is not just a natural part of life. The pages of theology written to try to alleviate this need to believe that these opposites are both true at the same time is amazing.
Gods Inability to save
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
...by telling us that by being created, not sowed, into Adam, we all suddenly exist as sinners!!! Before my conception there were x number of sinners in this world. After my conception there was x+1 number of sinners in this world by no fault of my free will at all. How is this not a blasphemy against HIS good NAME?
There is no doublethink blasphemy hidden in the theology of our pre-conception fall into sin. WE sinned by our free will not by GOD's will, we fell, and then we were sown by our conception into mankind by the will of GOD as it most plainly says in Matt 13:36:39!
Matt 13:36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” An explanation of a metaphor that is itself a metaphor only extends the metaphor, it does not explain it or reveal its hidden meaning. Therefore such an explanation must not have any literary device in it, no hyperbole nor metaphor in it at all. It would have to be able to be taken at plain face value.
37 He replied, “The One who SOWS the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil.
The other thing to notice is the word TO SOW. At face value to be sown cannot refer to being created as the devil sows some people also as GOD sees fit. This leaves the word sow to be being used in its ordinary sense of to be removed from a place of storage and scattered into a field to grow and mature...
This implies that the sons of the kingdom ARE the sons of the kingdom before they are sown into the field of the world as the good seed. The sons of the evil one ARE the sons of the evil one before they are sown into the field the world, by the devil.
Without metaphor it is impossible to countenance the devil creating people here on earth so we are forced by our created on earth doctrine to find a further metaphor in this passage to explain it which is no explanation at all.
Only being moved from somewhere else to the world of mankind satisfies the logic of this passage. And we do have a reference that people came from elsewhere, ie Sheol, into the world in Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. in which it is necessary to notice that the word RETURN, shuv, is the actual Hebrew, not to turn into which is practically the opposite of to return but eases the eisegetic need to keep people from thinking this verse might refer to anyone going back to Sheol after leaving it to come to earth, sigh.
So, the fact of our being members of the kingdom of heaven happened before our conception on earth and whatever happened for that entry into the kingdom to occur must have happened before the foundation of the earth, not by our being created sinful on earth nor by our [re]turn to faith on earth...2 Peter 2:25 For you were like sheep led astray, but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. If you were created in sin on earth, when were you with the Lord and not yet gone astray???
Last edited:
Yet it is supposedly by GOD's will that we are conceived in Adam as sinners due to him.
Blame GOD for putting me into a sinful Adam?
Blame Adam for being sinful when GOD put me in him?
OR:
BLAME ME and only myself for choosing by my free will (NOT by GOD's will) to rebel against the person I previously chose to accept as my GOD and Saviour from sin, a choice made by my own free will before the foundation of the world, before Eve chose to follow her friend the Serpent into sin and before Adam chose to follow his friend Eve into the consequences of her sin.
Only PCE theology has a clear and concise reason for our sin at conception that does not blame GOD for our sinfulness!!!
Even in Job 38:7 when ALL the sons of GOD sang HIS praises when we witnessed HIS divinity and eternal power by the creation of the physical universe???
GodsGrace
Active Member
Of course I don't depend on AI, none of them, for my information.
We do understand that it's a program with predudices, right?
I posted it because I agree with what it stated.
Ted,,,I just cannot accept a teaching that no church teaches.
We have to trust theologians a LITTLE bit !
GodsGrace
Active Member
This is because God gave us free will.
Again, God did not create us evil.
John says that in God there is no darkness....
I shudder to think that we may be serving a God that creates evil !
Can we accept that Genesis 1-3 was written to explain WHY man sins?
If you don't accept this...all your beliefs will be skewered.
The writer(s) of this particular part of the Torah were trying to understand WHY man sins...
why man turns away from God.
Babies are not sinful Ted.
But you don't have to choose between those two belief systems !
God's holiness is not impugned.
I'm sorry I can't explain any better...it's just that I've never heard this before, as I've stated.
Let's think...
Do you know 10 children?
Can you tell which are saved and which are not?
You believe a baby can die and go to hell because of Romans 5:12, because he dies so he must have sinned...
NO.
That's a horrible thought even for a parent to have to bear.
Jesus said we are to be like children.
He loves children.
We get stuck in our belief systems...
but you really should reconsider this.
Doug Brents
Active Member
The only thing I disagree with here is that God is UNABLE. I believe that it is not that He is unable, but that He has chosen not to, either because it is against His character and nature or because it is against His purpose. God has the power to save everyone and Jesus' blood is sufficient to save everyone, and He could do so if everyone surrendered to Him.
He is seeking those who love Him more than they love themselves. He is willing to sacrifice Himself to win us. He wants us to be willing to sacrifice ourselves to win Him. Anyone who loves self more than Him will not surrender to Him, and so He is unwilling to save such a person.
GodsGrace
Active Member
WHEN do we become liable sinners?
At birth?
At the age of reason?
Some believe that persons are born good instead of in need of salvation.
But what you believe goes beyond even this.
brightfame52
Active Member
@Doug Brents
So Jesus blood in order to save an individual that person must first surrender to Him ? Salvation by surrender.
Isnt everyone presently being made subject to Him 1 Pet 3:22
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Did the Apostle Paul when he was persecuting saul first surrender to Christ b4 Christ could save him, or Did Christ just save him and caused him too be made subject to Him ?
So Jesus blood in order to save an individual that person must first surrender to Him ? Salvation by surrender.
Isnt everyone presently being made subject to Him 1 Pet 3:22
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Did the Apostle Paul when he was persecuting saul first surrender to Christ b4 Christ could save him, or Did Christ just save him and caused him too be made subject to Him ?
GodsGrace
Active Member
The early church thought a lot on this topic.
They had to figure out why man kept sinning even after becoming Christian.
The early church theologians DID believe that baptism cleaned us of all sin.
Did you know that many waited to be on their death bed in order to be forgiven of all sin?
The solution in the early church was confession...not as the CC practices it today...but similar.
The early theologians accepted that man is born NOT good...and in need of salvation.
It's precisely our free will (that God gifted to man) that made Adam sin OF HIS OWN FREE WILL....
and nothing to do with God.
He ate of the tree of the knowledge of evil...and so evil entered into the world.
Somehow or other, evil entered into the world and we certainly cannot say that God created evil...
what a horror to serve such a God.
So, somehow, the sin of Adam affected all of us.
But we are not responsible, personally, for it.
We just suffer its effect.
I know I've said all this before, but it's what scripture teaches.
We either believe it or we don't.
We trust the bible or we don't.
A decision must be made.
What do you think the above represents?
It's just stating that some are of God and some are of satan.
In a previous life were we adults?
You do realize this is reincarnation in a sense.
So satan takes those that are ALREADY his and sows them onto a field?
Jesus is speaking about the tares and the wheat...
the saved and the lost...
the wise and the foolish...
those who obey and those that do not.
I really don't read into that anything more.
I see what you mean.
So then some are saved at birth and some are lost at birth.
So what's the purpose of the gospel?
Psalm 9:17 surely means something different since there is no other verse in the bible that sounds like this.
If you reply to this...I'll look into it better in the morning.
It sounds like the wicked people of the day will send to hell all the nations that forgot God.
Not sure.
Last edited:
GodsGrace
Active Member
You don't believe man has free will so all your theology is off....
none of it makes sense.
Yes. We must surrender to Jesus if we want to be saved.
James 4:7
7Submit yourselves therefore to God.
Acts 17:30
30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,
Luke 9:23
23And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Proverbs 3:5-6
5Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
Psalm 9:10
10And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.
Well obviously He could if He truly desired to save everyone last person who ever lived. So there must be another answer as to why He does not correct? I believe the answer lies in verse two where Paul mentions kinds of people.
LOL, what does all mean? All men. Who is all men?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
there is
1. He wants a relationship with them
2. As such he gave them free will
3. He will not force them to believe. he will not force them to repent from unbelief
4. So he dies for ALL, He makes redemption AVAILABLE to all. Then as he did with moses in the dessert. he gives ALL the ability to chose. look to the serpent (cross) and you will basically be born again (healed or made whole and not die because of the thing that killed you) or chose to not look away and suffer your fate (in moses case physical death, in the case of mankind spiritual death or condemnation for eternity)
he who believe is in a state of non condemnation.
who who does not believe is condemned already (the snakes poison will kill their body eventually, but their soul is already dead)
GodsGrace
Active Member
You figure it out.
GodsGrace
Active Member
GodsGrace
Active Member
The kinds of people are still included in the ALL men that God desires to save.
All men means ALL men.
So, yes.
There must be another answer or God is not sovereign.
All as in all who ever lived? Can you be more specific? For instance, did Christ die for those who had already passed in unbelief?
So 1 Timothy is referring to kinds of people, hence he says to also pray for kings and those in aufhority.
