Who is all? In John 12 does that include those who had already died lost prior to the cross?
You could try to actually answer the question.
Gods Inability to save
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You could try to actually answer the question.
It does seem way simpler than what is being proposed. Jesus said "Abraham's Children" are those who "Do the Works" of Abraham. Therefore, according to Jesus, the "children of the devil" would be those who "do the works" of the devil.
It wouldn't take much study, in my view, to determine what the "works" of both Abraham are and what the works of the devil are. And as Paul said, "To whom we "yield ourselves" servants to obey, "his servants we are"!
So simple even a child could understand.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Ted...
I just don't understand what you're saying above.
I know it's me...
but could you say it a different way??
GodsGrace
Active Member
YES Presby.
Jesus died for ALL.
Man was always saved by faith.
Man always had the opportunity to save Himself even BEFORE Jesus.
Just by chance,,,I just posted the following on a different thread....
The reply applies here too...
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
ALL men are drawn to God.
Jesus is God. After Jesus He will draw all men....even, yes, all types and nationalities because He commissioned the Apostles to go into all nations---world---to proclaim the gospel.
We now see a living God that is visible and has been seen by us and has spoken to us.
But God has ALWAYS made Himself be known to humanity.
Romans 1 states this.
Otherwise,,,,what could John 12:32 possibly mean?
Were the OT saints saved?
They were saved through faith, just as we are.
They didn't SEE God...they only knew about Him.
He revealed Himself to the Hebrews in a special way...
but He revealed Himself to ALL people all over the world from the beginning
of time.
Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
God is a just God and has given to every person the opportunity to save himself.
Why? So that at the judgment each man will have no excuse.....
and the judgment will be just.
Great. Who is all?
Not all of humanity. Millions have never heard the gospel and never will. Faith comes by hearing correct?
GodsGrace
Active Member
Did you read my post?
Did you read Romans 1:18-20 ?
Why are you asking me who is ALL?
Why are you asking me about those that never heard the gospel?
PAUL, the writer of 2/3 of the NT has given you the answer in
Romans 1:18-20
You could read it again if you wish.
Calvinism has taught you to be unloving and legalistic.
God is love
and God is just.
It is my Christian contention that the elect were chosen to be HIS elect when they put their faith in HIM as their Lord and Saviour, before the Satanic fall. HE promised they would always be saved from the consequences of choosing sin.
The reprobate chose to put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god which put them outside of HIS saving grace and mercy forever so they were condemned to hell at that time.
When HE called HIS elect to come out from among these newly fallen reprobate so their damnation could take place, some of HIS newly elect would not. They contended that damnation was too unloving and could not be the act of a reasonable and loving GOD. They suggested that time could be given for them to repent and they could be saved like the sinful elect were promised to be saved, etc, etc. By rebelling against GOD's call to come out from them, HIS elect became sinful in HIS sight, needing to be redeemed and sanctified to be able to rejoin HIS Family.
To facilitate the change of mind the sinful elect needed to make about the reprobate, GOD chose for the sinful elect to live together with the reprobate, Matt 13:27-30 so they could learn that no matter how GOD enticed them or threatened them, they would never repent - they were totally and forever enslaved to sin and by repudiating the only Person who could save them they were without the saviour they needed.
This earthly life was to ensure that the sinful elect finally repudiated the idolatry of the reprobate world, had their eyes opened to both their own sin and their need for the Saviour but also to the fact that the reprobate really could not ever repent, and so could never be forgiven. They had to be left to GOD's plan to ostracize them in the outer darkness so HIS heaven and heavenly marriage could be safe from their predations, since a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Thus HE calls those who will never answer and rebukes those who will only ever scorn HIM as a liar and a false god...to aid in the enlightenment of HIS singful elect and to hurry the day of HIS judgement: 2 Peter 3:10-12 in which it says our holiness and godliness hurries up and hastens this great and terrible day!
GodsGrace
Active Member
You're saying that persons put their faith in God BEFORE the fall?
It is my Christian contention that the elect were chosen to be HIS elect when they put their faith in HIM as their Lord and Saviour, before the Satanic fall. HE promised they would always be saved from the consequences of choosing sin.
I've just never heard this before
I read the entire post and I still don't undersand....
and may never understand what you believe.
But let's go through...
The unsaved did this BEFORE the world began?
God called the "good" persons to come out from the evil persons?
but they would not....
and before the beginning?
Wow. Ted. This is too much!
It's an interesting story.
But I've never heard it in over 40 years of study.
Of course part of the above is true.
But the first part is odd.
OK.
I'm not going to debate this with you because you're entitled to your beliefs and, at least it seems to me, that this is not a soteriological issue so I'm really not interested...due to time, I limit myself to just a couple of topics.
Have you gleened this from the bible or do you go to a church that teaches this?
Just curious, you don't even have to reply.
I believe we came into existance at our conception/birth.
At some time we become able to understand about God and this could be called the age of reason...
simply because God will not send a baby to hell.
I believe we are born in a sinful state - called differently by different denominations but it's all the same idea -amd, at some point in our lives, we have to decide if we want to spend eternity with God or with the evil one.
After we come to believe that God exists, of course.
At that point we can be "saved" as we say these days....
or we will be lost forever if we do not decide for God.
I would venture to say that you do not agree with the above.
Do you agree that we are to obey and worship God?
Yes , before the foundation of all the world which every person made in YHWH's image SAW, Job 38:7 Berean Standard Bible
...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?
Our pre-earth existence (Pre-Conception Existence, PCE) may be news to you but it is an old theology, as old as theology itself. It is an ancient concept as old as the current favourite theory of our being created on earth at our conception. It was taught in rabbinic literature and can be seen to be in the Bible, both the protestant bible and expressly in the Catholic bible though Christianity as a whole denies this interpretation of what is written in favour of the current favorite theory that we are created on earth...as sinners....contrary to GOD's attribute of perfect holiness, ie, HE cannot create evil by any means, even Adam.
Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See
Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu, trans. Samuel A. Berman...)
This was loooong before Origen, ç 203 and 250 A.D, the Father of modern Christian theology who invented nothing when he taught our pre-earth existence.
Bible: [including 3 verses out of 3 dozen verses available]
For example, in Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." which Origen also quoted in his explanation of HIS pce pov.
But Origen claimed his strongest impulse to accept PCE theology arose from his study of Romans 9:11-14
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Origen argued that God could not love Jacob and hate Esau until Jacob had done something worthy of love and Esau had done something worthy of hatred, therefore, this passage must mean that Jacob and Esau who had not yet done good or evil in this life that their conduct before this life was the reason why Esau would serve Jacob. He rejected the position that God loves or hates a soul based on its inclination toward good or evil, before the soul actually commits a good or evil act.
A look at his trial some hundreds of years after his death proves that most of his being condemned was due to the politics of the day, not his theology.
Jn 9:1-3 The question Christ's disciples asked about the man born blind, suggests that they believed in the pre-existence of the man's spirit.
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
How does it make sense that the disciples ask if the man was born blind due to his own sin, if they did not believe that he existence before his birth to be able to sin before his birth? Notice Jesus did not correct their supposedly wrong theology but only about the reason for his suffering. As an aside, healing a man born blind was one of the four miracles the Jews thought only the Messiah was able to perform along with curing a Jew of leprosy, casting out a deaf and dumb spirit and raising the dead.
Catholicism:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
or
I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.
is pretty straight forward unless you are a 'created on earth' believing Catholic and haven't been taught that this verse is considered scripture by the church.
I hope this was helpful...
That is because it is not taught. You will only find references to it by some commentators who mention it only to be able to deny its truth, sigh.
There are books on amazon etc that purport to teach about it under the name pre-existence as if something could exist before it exists, and they are probably/possibly Mormon which I repudiate as blasphemy and delusion.
Since these two doctrines together prove that GOD who is HOLY creates evil people (probably by means of putting us into Adam's line which HE did not have to do, but you don't say this...) which is a concept I find abhorrent as impugning HIS holiness and righteous loving nature,
I must disagree and I have put my faith that rather, if we are sinners at birth as scripture insists, then it must have been that we chose by our free will to rebel against HIM before our conception/birth to become sinful in HIS sight before our birth.
Amen...
Indeed!
GodsGrace
Active Member
No Ted,,,it was not helpful.
I've never heard of this before and don't quite know how to respond.
I'll say this...I know Catholic doctrine and Catholic theology teaches that man is born one time and on earth.
John 9:1-3 is interesting.
Neither he sinned nor his parents, that he might be born blind.
The man was not born blind because of some sin of his parents....we are each responsible for our own sins. OK.
Right. If he was born blind,,,when would he have sinned?
This is from google AI....I DO agree with it.
The Early Church Fathers' views on pre-existence, particularly Origen's, are a complex topic. While some, like Origen, believed in the pre-existence of souls, others, like Jerome, viewed it as a doctrine confined to certain Christian sects. Origen's view, influenced by Platonism, suggested that souls existed before being incarnated, perhaps to undergo a process of moral development or judgment. This belief was not universally accepted, and later church councils condemned Origen's teachings on the pre-existence of souls.
Here's a more detailed look:
- Origen's View:
Origen, a prominent Early Church Father, believed in the pre-existence of souls, suggesting they existed in heaven before being born into the world. He likely drew inspiration from Platonic philosophy, which also included the concept of pre-existence. - Jerome's View:
Jerome, another Early Church Father, mentions certain Christian sects teaching a form of reincarnation, suggesting that pre-existence might have been a more esoteric doctrine among some groups. - Condemnation of Origen:
The Second Council of Constantinople condemned Origen's teachings, including his belief in the pre-existence of souls, potentially due to its implications for salvation and the nature of the Trinity.
Augustine got his idea that man does not have free will from Platonism too...
also from his gnostic background.
If the early church condemned a teaching...I'd say that there was a reason.
GodsGrace
Active Member
I think we've had this discussion before.
I believe I was speaking about the sin nature, concupiscense, the flesh,,,,etc.
IOW,,, that THING that makes us sin.
I asked you a question that would have clarified something for me...no reply yet.
Let me ask you a hypothetical...which I hate...but it might clear up something....
Let's say this is possible....
A person is born.
They NEVER sin.
They never accept God in any way; either through revelation or through hearing the gospel.
Are they going to heaven?
GodsGrace
Active Member
I don't believe any Christian on the Forum believes God created evil people.
I understand now that you're compensating for this evil that you believe Christianity teaches by coming to accept that persons must, by necessity, sin before they are born (rather than impugning God).
The evil would be that God actually creates sinful persons.
But the OT doesn't teach this.
God cannot create evil.
The story of Adam and Eve is a way of understanding WHY man sins.
A way of explaining why man sins.
And it's actually really great.
Truly inspired.
If we can understand and accept this story,,,,everything just falls into place and we wouldn't need to give credence to rather heretical systems to make up for what a person considers impugning God.
Adam and Eve actually explains why God is NOT responsible for our sins/sinning.
JoshebB
Active Member
Relevance?
I do not trade posts with posters who attempt to digress far afield from a topic specified in an op, and I definitely don't collaborate with those who try to hijack someone else's op. I also do not trade posts with those who don't answer questions when asked but expect others to do so.
So, explain to me how whether or not I align with Presbyterian theology is relevant to this op. If it's not relevant, then either move on or ask me something op-relevant. And please do not ever insinuate ANY poster is either being dishonest or hiding anything.
Who is the "all" referring to? What is that now? Four times?
GodsGrace
Active Member
Apparently, I'm unable to give you a satisfactory reply.
And you haven't replied to my question:
If God desires that all men be saved....1 Timothy 2:4
Then why aren't they?
Did Paul lie?
Is God unable?
Why is God not able to do what He desires??
GodsGrace
Active Member
Read him and then read Plato to prove for yourself that he got his ideas from Plato, not the Spirit and the bible... it is obvious they are not Platonic except for the time of our creation. Plato's shadow world is nothing like the time of the pre-fall angels! He used Jer 1:5 and Romans 9:11-14 in particular and what he says about their meaning to him is obviously not Platonic in the least but exegesis of the word.
Even so, this bit by the AI doesn't even try to answer the hard question you ask: "Right. If he was born blind...when would he have sinned?"
And this is only one verse out of some 3 dozen which bring us to face either the possibility or the necessity of our pre-earth existence.
Re-read Kings, Judges, the Prophets and the life of Christ - GOD has a long history of allowing the leaders of HIS people to lead them astray into foolishness and idolatry.
And we still haven't solved the conundrum of HIM being holy and not willing to do any evil but then HE supposedly has created all of us as evil by putting us in Adam instead of creating us like Adam in innocence.
Babies die proving their sinfulness.
Either they lived before their conception on earth and sinned in that place / state by their own free will, OR our HOLY GOD created us evil.
I choose to believe in our pre-conception existence because I will not impugne GOD's holiness with this bit of of doublethink that HE is holy but HE creates evil people.
It is a bonus to me (not proof) that so many bible verses hint, suggest, or point to our pce.
