Explain how He would test them to know something He already knows?
God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
It's scripture, Deal with it and stop running from your responsibility
Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22
Prayer Can Change What Would Otherwise Be the Future.
Jehoahaz pleaded and God listened and helped deliver Israel 2 Kings 13:4; God told Hezekiah to prepare for "you shall die and not live" but the King pleaded with God who then said, "I have heard your prayer and surely I will heal you... And I will add to your days fifteen years" 2 Kings 20:1-6; a persistent widow pleaded with an unjust judge and Jesus interpreted His own parable, Shall not God answer the prayers of those who continue to ask God Luke 18:1-7; the friend who comes asking for bread at midnight is resisted until his persists and Jesus interprets His parables saying So ask God "and it will be given to you" Luke 11:5-9;
civic
Well-known member
yes the classic see spot run- a complete dodge of the text and dealing with it and instead you get another question or statement as an attempt at an apologetic reply that is a major failure.
civic
Well-known member
OT jews who were Gods elect and unregenerate and God commanded them to humble themselves.
next
So you agree man is capable of humbling himself?
1 Kings 21:29
“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the disaster upon his house.”
Ahab was not a saint
civic
Well-known member
Yes he was an unregenerate sinner
atpollard
Well-known member
God cannot change His mind without ceasing to be God.
Was God/His plan more or less perfect BEFORE God changed His mind?
If God was MORE perfect before, then God has become “less perfect” (by definition).
If God was LESS perfect before, then God was not perfect and did not meet the definition of God (before).
For God’s OMNI- attributes to exist, they must be immutable (incapable of change) or God becomes either MORE or LESS perfect and violates the definition of “God” by that imperfection (past or future).
Well your problem is with scripture
God Changes His Mind
The Ninevites Change God’s Mind
Jonah. 3:10: “When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.”
Hezekiah’s Prayer Changes God’s Mind
God prophecies to Hezekiah through Isaiah: “Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover” (Isa. 38: 1, cf. 2 K. 20: 1). Hezekiah earnestly prays for God to spare him. The Lord responds:
Turn back and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the god of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria(2 Kg. 20: 5-6; cf. Isa. 33:4-5)
Jeremiah later encourages the Israelites not to be fatalistic by recalling the ordeal:
“Did (Hezekiah) not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them?” (Jer. 26:19).
At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to itThus says the Lord: Look I am a potter shaping evil against you and devising a plan against you. Turn now, all of you from your evil way, and amend your ways and your doings. (Jer 18: 7-11).
Stand in the court of the Lords house, and speak to all the cities of Judah that come to worship in the house of the LORD; speak to them all the words that I command you…It may be that they will listen… and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings (Jer. 26:2-3).
Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your god, and the Lord will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you (Jer. 26:13).
Return to the Lordfor he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and relents from punishing. Who knows whether he will not turn and relent, and leave a blessing behind him…(Joel 2:13-14, cf. Jon. 4:2).
Moses’ Prayer Changes God’s Mind
The Lord had planned on destroying Israel, but after Moses prayer “the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.” (Ex. 32:14).
Nope. Man instinctively hates God.
Question begging that they were unregenerate
How does God not know yet know?
Quit dodging your responsibility and explain a glaring contradictory illogical in your theology.
Except I am a compatibilist.
You however are a Open Theist. "The future is open". LOL Your God learns. That's Open Theism.
Let's try this, if not a Open Theist then what are you? Other than wrong.
atpollard
Well-known member
Well, I tried to explain the need for God to be immutably perfect. [shrug] ... "You can lead a horse to water (and all that)."
If you want to believe God's is being made "more perfect every day" as He learns more and more, have at it. [I pass.]
Amen! I wonder if He knows Tom will actually be saved in the end. There are circumstances, according to them, that He does not foresee.
atpollard
Well-known member
[all NKJV]
John 3:18-20 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."
Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
Ephesians 2:1-3 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
civic
Well-known member
no one was born again until Pentecost.
civic
Well-known member
Man thwarts Gods plans below. God changes His mind, His plans and repents numerous times below in Scripture.
“hear the words of the Lord your God... By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites" Josh. 3:9-10; yet a generation later, "I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you... But you have not obeyed My voice...' Therefore I also said, 'I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side' " Jud. 2:1-3; "Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites" Jud. 3:5; with the Bible emphasizing this repeatedly, "I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite." Ex. 33:2; "When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites" Deut. 7:1; "When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land" Deut. 12:29; this prophesy to the generations that entered Canaan promised a steady and methodical possession of the land for, "If you should say in your heart, 'These nations... how can I dispossess them?'— you shall not be afraid of them, but you shall remember well what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh... So shall the Lord your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid. Moreover the Lord your God will send the hornet among them until those who are left, who hide themselves from you, are destroyed. You shall not be terrified of them; for... the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you little by little; you will be unable to destroy them at once, lest the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. But the Lord your God will deliver them over to you and will inflict defeat upon them until they are destroyed. And He will deliver their kings into your hand, and you will destroy their name from under heaven; no one shall be able to stand against you until you have destroyed them Deut. 7:17-24; yet "you have forsaken Me and served other gods. Therefore I will deliver you [Israel] no more" Jud. 10:13; so the generation following Joshua did not see fulfilment of the prophecy as promised for, " 'Because this nation has transgressed My covenant... I also will no longer drive out before them [in the timeframe prophesied] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not.' Therefore the Lord left those nations, without driving them out immediately; nor did He deliver them into the hand of Joshua" Jud. 2:20-23 as had been prophesied; of course, after the recreation on the New Earth pagan nations will not occupy the land but these prophecies were not of the distant future but about Israel's entrance into the land.
"let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them [Israel] and I may consume them. And I will make of you [Moses] a great nation" Ex. 32:10; "I will not go up in your midst" Ex. 33:3 yet God repented and did accompany the Israelites through the wilderness for Moses said to the Lord, "See, You say to me, 'Bring up this people.' But You have not let me know whom You will send with me... Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now... And consider that this nation is Your people. And [God] said, 'My Presence will go with you...' " Ex. 33:12-14; "Behold, I will bring calamity on you" Ahab 1 Ki. 21:21 yet "See how Ahab has humbled himself before Me? Because he has humbled himself before Me, I will not bring the calamity in his days..." 1 Ki. 21:29; "Therefore [God] said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, to turn away His wrath, lest He destroy [Israel]" Ps. 106:23; "I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.’ But [then] I acted for My name’s sake" and did not destroy the Hebrews Ezek. 20:8-9; then "the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness... Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them. But [then] I acted for My name’s sake" though I had "also raised My hand in an oath... that I would not bring them into the land... because they despised My judgments... Nevertheless My eye spared them from destruction. I did not make an end of them in the wilderness" Ezek. 20:13-17; and then again, for "I said I would pour out My fury on them... Nevertheless I withdrew My hand" Ezek. 20:21-22; "Therefore because of you [Israel's lying priest and prophets] Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins" by Micah's prophecy Micah 3:12 yet God repented of Micah's prophecy for "Micah... prophesied in the days of Hezekiah... 'Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins' ... [Yet] the Lord repented concerning the doom which He had pronounced against them" Jer. 26:18-19. opentheism.org
God expects things to happen that never happen!
"He expected it to bring forth good grapes" but it did not for instead "it brought forth wild grapes" Isa. 5:1-2; "What more could have been done...?", God asks, thus He says, "I expected it [Israel] to bring forth good grapes" but instead He got "wild grapes" Isa. 5:3-4; for hope is knowledge influenced by love yet those who claim God's knowledge is static see any hope in Him as weakness and error, whereas in reality God said, in the Hebrew using the future tense, "she will return", that Israel "will return to Me, but she did not return" Jer. 3:7; God said, "I have caused the whole house... of Judah to cling to Me... but they would not hear" Jer. 13:11; "I said, 'You shall... not turn away from Me.' [but] as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, so have you dealt treacherously with Me" Jer. 3:19-20; "I said, 'Surely you will fear Me, you will receive instruction' but... they corrupted all their deeds" Zeph. 3:7; Because Israel didn't act as God expected, He said, "Surely they are My people [and will act in truth] but they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, so He turned Himself against them" Isa. 63:8-10; "For thus says the Lord God... 'In returning you shall be saved...' But you would not, and you said, 'No...' " Isa. 30:15-16; God says, I will not destroy the nation "that I thought" to destroy Jer. 18:7-8 as God had said, forty days and Nineveh will be destroyed Jonah 3:4, 10; Jesus, as God the Son, was surprised "And He marveled because of their unbelief" (John 6:6); [see also Jer. 26:3]
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
continued :
God answers prayer and will go another direction from what He had said previously. Jesus said to pray that Gods will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus said He longed to gather Israel like a hen with her chicks but they would not listen. So much for irresistible grace and Gods will being done on earth. He listened to Moses and did not wipe out the Israelites. He listened to Abraham when He pleaded with Him in Genesis 18. And God repented that He made man and brought the flood and several other examples.
I will believe scripture over your false presuppositions.
Exodus 33:17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
1Samuel 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.
Jonah 3:4-9 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water.8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?
Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
So much for the calvinist/reformed view of determinism, predestination, sovereignty in which everything that comes to pass is ordained by God and its His will.
Jeremiah 32
“The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but arouse my anger with what their hands have made, declares the Lord. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their vile images in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
hope this helps !!!
God answers prayer and will go another direction from what He had said previously. Jesus said to pray that Gods will would be done on earth as it is in heaven. Jesus said He longed to gather Israel like a hen with her chicks but they would not listen. So much for irresistible grace and Gods will being done on earth. He listened to Moses and did not wipe out the Israelites. He listened to Abraham when He pleaded with Him in Genesis 18. And God repented that He made man and brought the flood and several other examples.
I will believe scripture over your false presuppositions.
Exodus 33:17 So the LORD said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”
1Samuel 2:30 Therefore the LORD God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the LORD says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed.
Jonah 3:4-9 And Jonah began to enter the city on the first day’s walk. Then he cried out and said, “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!”5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 Then word came to the king of Nineveh; and he arose from his throne and laid aside his robe, covered himself with sackcloth and sat in ashes.7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published throughout Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste anything; do not let them eat, or drink water.8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily to God; yes, let every one turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.9 Who can tell if God will turn and relent, and turn away from His fierce anger, so that we may not perish?
Jonah 4:2 So he prayed to the LORD, and said, “Ah, LORD, was not this what I said when I was still in my country? Therefore I fled previously to Tarshish; for I know that You are a gracious and merciful God, slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, One who relents from doing harm.
Jeremiah 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.
Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
So much for the calvinist/reformed view of determinism, predestination, sovereignty in which everything that comes to pass is ordained by God and its His will.
Jeremiah 32
“The people of Israel and Judah have done nothing but evil in my sight from their youth; indeed, the people of Israel have done nothing but arouse my anger with what their hands have made, declares the Lord. 31 From the day it was built until now, this city has so aroused my anger and wrath that I must remove it from my sight. 32 The people of Israel and Judah have provoked me by all the evil they have done—they, their kings and officials, their priests and prophets, the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem. 33 They turned their backs to me and not their faces; though I taught them again and again, they would not listen or respond to discipline. 34 They set up their vile images in the house that bears my Name and defiled it. 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.
hope this helps !!!
atpollard
Well-known member
John 20:19-23 [NKJV]no one was born again until Pentecost.
Then, the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace [be] with you." When He had said this, He showed them [His] hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the [sins] of any, they are retained."
No one? [Not arguing, just asking. This is one of those areas that I see as "tricky" to nail down an exact start date.]
civic
Well-known member
Nice try it only affirms my position siance Jesus told them after to wait 40 days until He poured out His Spirit as He promised them at Pentecost when they were immediatly transformed men. Peter who denied Christ and hid now boldly preached Christ on that day before 1000's.
