God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES

[civic]

They contradict Numbers 23:19, so they cannot mean what you think they mean.

[The criticism cuts both ways ... you answer with "scripture pong" rather than any true conversation.]

God is not a man THAT HE SHOULD LIE ( the context man lies changes his tune ) whereas God does not lie. Nor is God the son of man that he should repent ( of sin for God does not lie, a sin ) . Gods word is true, trustworthy unlike man. God does what He says unlike sinful man.

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

In case you wondered how GOD says it works ...

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NKJV]

And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. ​

​

But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.​

 

[atpollard]

God is not a man THAT HE SHOULD LIE ( the context man lies changes his tune ) whereas God does not lie. Nor is God the son of man that he should repent ( of sin for God does not lie, a sin ) . Gods word is true, trustworthy unlike man. God does what He says unlike sinful man.

hope this helps !!!

So God DOES say one thing and mean another?
God said He does not change His mind, but God changes His mind.
God said He works His plan from (long ago) but God is CONSTANTLY changing His plan?

No, that does not help. It just sows doubt about the Omnipotence, and Omniscience of God.
Well done!

 

[Presby02]

If you CHANGE perfect, it is no longer "perfect".
If the only response you are looking for in a conversation is denial, then ...

You have misunderstood those scriptures to prove that God changes his plan.
(Now I have addressed your "rebuttal" as you addressed my "argument" ... with a simple statement of denial.)

Amen brother, amen.

 

[civic]

So God DOES say one thing and mean another?
God said He does not change His mind, but God changes His mind.
God said He works His plan from (long ago) but God is CONSTANTLY changing His plan?

No, that does not help. It just sows doubt about the Omnipotence, and Omniscience of God.
Well done!

Understanding the verse you quoted and misapplied .

That he should lie, i.e. break his faith and promises made to his people for their preservation and benediction.

That he should repent, . e. change his counsels or purposes; which men do, either because they are not able to execute them, or because they are better informed and their minds changed by some unexpected occurrent, or by their lusts and passions, none of which have place in God. And therefore I plainly see that all our endeavours and repeated sacrifices are to no purpose, and can make no impression in God, nor induce him to curse those whom he hath purposed, and solemnly and frequently promised, to bless.

Shall he not do it? Is he like a man that oft speaks and promises what he either never intends, or cannot or will not perform?Poole

hope this helps !!!

 

[atpollard]

Yet another Calvinist contradiction in their theology

Tom was responding to scripture, so at least you recognize that "Calvinist theology" is synonymous with "scripture" ... that's progress.

 

[civic]

Or maybe you will listen to Gill who affirms my point and not yours.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie,.... Man is a creature consisting of a body of flesh and blood, and of a soul, a created and

 

[atpollard]

Understanding the verse you quoted and misapplied .

That he should lie, i.e. break his faith and promises made to his people for their preservation and benediction.

That he should repent, . e. change his counsels or purposes; which men do, either because they are not able to execute them, or because they are better informed and their minds changed by some unexpected occurrent, or by their lusts and passions, none of which have place in God. And therefore I plainly see that all our endeavours and repeated sacrifices are to no purpose, and can make no impression in God, nor induce him to curse those whom he hath purposed, and solemnly and frequently promised, to bless.

Shall he not do it? Is he like a man that oft speaks and promises what he either never intends, or cannot or will not perform?Poole

hope this helps !!!

God's Immutability of CHARACTER, PURPOSE and PLAN ...

• “God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and he will not fulfill it” (Numbers 23:19)?
• “They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end” (Psalm 102:26-27).
• “when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us” (Hebrews 6:17-18)
• “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)
• “the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places” (Eph. 3:9-10)
• “was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God” (1 Peter 1:20)
• “in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began” (Titus 1:2)
• “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change” (James 1:17)

Chipping away at one verse is straining gnats and swallowing camels ... you reject the BIBLICAL IMAGE of who God is!
I hope that helps!!

 

[civic]

God's Immutability of CHARACTER, PURPOSE and PLAN ...

• “God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and he will not fulfill it” (Numbers 23:19)?
• “They will perish, but you will remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will change them like a robe, and they will pass away, but you are the same, and your years have no end” (Psalm 102:26-27).
• “when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us” (Hebrews 6:17-18)
• “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever” (Hebrews 13:8)
• “the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places” (Eph. 3:9-10)
• “was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God” (1 Peter 1:20)
• “in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began” (Titus 1:2)
• “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change” (James 1:17)

Chipping away at one verse is straining gnats and swallowing camels ... you reject the BIBLICAL IMAGE of who God is!
I hope that helps!!

Nope Gods character never changes unlike mans which was the point in the Num 23 passage.

Gods plans change which there are dozens of passages stating it does and it also says God repents. You are denying Gods word and what He said about Himself and holding to a doctrine made by man holding God hostage to it.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

@TomL

What about the others?

• John 3:18-20 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."

What about it?

Those who do not believe and die will face condemnation

• Ephesians 2:1-3 And you [He made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

And

It is through faith

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

not without faith

• 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

In context these are the things hidden in the mind of God that the Spirit reveals to believers. Unbelievers not having the spirit cannot receive them

It says nothing at all about being unable to believe the reveal gospel

Romans 10:14–17 (KJV 1900) — 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

• James 4:4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

... SHARPIE to them, too?

Heck, if men are basically GOOD, then what do we even NEED a "Christ" for? We can just OBEY THE LAW and BE RIGHTEOUS!

No one has stated men are basically good. That is a strawman

 

[TomL]

So SHARPIE to ROMANS 3 ... Got it.

No just understand it need to be qualified in some manner

The context of Rom 3 concerns sin, so it could be no one is righteous in being without sin.

yet men could be righteous through faith for a possible example

 

[TomL]

They contradict Numbers 23:19, so they cannot mean what you think they mean.

[The criticism cuts both ways ... you answer with "scripture pong" rather than any true conversation.]

False, I am able to respond directly to your verses, while you have yet to address what I or Civic post

 

[TomL]

If you CHANGE perfect, it is no longer "perfect".

Got a scripture verse and a definition defining perfect?

you just cannot assume one

If the only response you are looking for in a conversation is denial, then ...

You have misunderstood those scriptures to prove that God changes his plan.
(Now I have addressed your "rebuttal" as you addressed my "argument" ... with a simple statement of denial.)

You fail to show that and simply beg the question.

 

[TomL]

Yes I do. LOL Man instinctively hates God.

First let me note you ignored the verse that states Ahab humbled himself

second i will ask did these hate God

All these were declared Righteous, just, pleased God, worshipped God



Able - Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 3:12

Lot - 2 Peter 2:7

Noah - Genesis 6:9; 7:1

Job - Job 1:1; 34:5

Abraham - Galatians 3:6

Lydia - Acts 16:14

Cornelius - Acts 10:22

Zechariah - Luke 1:5-6

Elizabeth - Luke 1:5-6

Joseph Matthew 1:19; Luke 23:50

Simeon Luke 2:25

Enoch Hebrews 11:5

 

[TomL]

Compatibilism contains determinism but also free will. It's clearly the Biblical position. The very Bible itself is a great example of compatibilist there Open Theist.

You cannot escape it is determinism, and it leaves men unable to do other than what was determined for him to do and so it is fatalism

 

[TomL]

John 20:19-23 [NKJV]

Then, the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace [be] with you." When He had said this, He showed them [His] hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on [them], and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the [sins] of any, they are retained."​

No one? [Not arguing, just asking. This is one of those areas that I see as "tricky" to nail down an exact start date.]

This is what Jesus stated

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

to receive the spirit in this manner awaited the glorification of Christ

 

[atpollard]

This is what Jesus stated

John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

to receive the spirit in this manner awaited the glorification of Christ

Was Jesus glorified in John 20 ... was he raised from the dead "glorified"? He was certainly no longer bound by inconveniences like time and space ... appearing and disappearing and passing through solid objects! He breathed His spirit on the Apostles prior to Pentecost.

Were MOSES and ELIJAH "in the kingdom" or still waiting to enter the Kingdom when they appeared at the Transfiguration?

I was sincere when I said that nailing down an exact date is tricky. Acts 2 is "convenient" , but that does not make it ACCURATE. That is why I look at other evidence and keep an open mind.

 

[TomL]

Was Jesus glorified in John 20 ... was he raised from the dead "glorified"? He was certainly no longer bound by inconveniences like time and space ... appearing and disappearing and passing through solid objects! He breathed His spirit on the Apostles prior to Pentecost.

Were MOSES and ELIJAH "in the kingdom" or still waiting to enter the Kingdom when they appeared at the Transfiguration?

I was sincere when I said that nailing down an exact date is tricky. Acts 2 is "convenient" , but that does not make it ACCURATE. That is why I look at other evidence and keep an open mind.

I have seen commentary it was a temporary filling until the day of Pentecost.

However, this subject arose because of the claim Old Testament saints were not regenerated by the permanent indwelling of the Spirit. So even if men were first indwelt at John 20:22 that would still leave the Old Testament saints without the indwelling of the Spirit as seen in the New Testament

 

[atpollard]

However, this subject arose because of the claim Old Testament saints were not regenerated by the permanent indwelling of the Spirit. So even if men were first indwelt at John 20:22 that would still leave the Old Testament saints without the indwelling of the Spirit as seen in the New Testament

I will acknowledge that people in the OT were likely not indwelt by the HS (I have no definitive personal revelation, but I see no indication that they were). That does not prove that someone like Enoch may not have been indwelt (who am I to make a definitive claim where Scripture is silent).

We know with certainty that people were ANOINTED by the Spirit and often for extended periods of time. However, we also know that anointing was for a purpose (often specified in scripture) and indwelling is for a different purpose (a deposit guaranteeing an inheritance).

That said, there is still a list of HEROES of the OT who are a great cloud of witnesses, which begs the question of EXACTLY what a “Saint” is and whether someone NOT-INDWELT living in the OT, and declared “righteous” by God might, nonetheless, be a “Saint”.

Thus it is the actual definition of “saved” being back-dated to pre-Pentecost that I would question. Here is another definition of saved … “I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy” [Deuteronomy and Romans]

 

[TomL]

I will acknowledge that people in the OT were likely not indwelt by the HS (I have no definitive personal revelation, but I see no indication that they were). That does not prove that someone like Enoch may not have been indwelt (who am I to make a definitive claim where Scripture is silent).

We know with certainty that people were ANOINTED by the Spirit and often for extended periods of time. However, we also know that anointing was for a purpose (often specified in scripture) and indwelling is for a different purpose (a deposit guaranteeing an inheritance).

That said, there is still a list of HEROES of the OT who are a great cloud of witnesses, which begs the question of EXACTLY what a “Saint” is and whether someone NOT-INDWELT living in the OT, and declared “righteous” by God might, nonetheless, be a “Saint”.

Thus it is the actual definition of “saved” being back-dated to pre-Pentecost that I would question. Here is another definition of saved … “I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy” [Deuteronomy and Romans]

The Deuteronomy passage is not about eternal salvation. Not being indwelt would preclude their being regenerate