God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES

Presby02 said:
And the future can be known. Hod knows all there is to logically know. The future cannot logically be open. You deny God's omniscience and our a Open Theist
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Sorry you have provided no proof for your assertion

If God was free not to create then the future had to be open
 
Presby02 said:
His knowledge is not eternal? So your god learns then.

OPEN THEISM
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Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22
 
Rockson said:
Could it maybe be that they want to keep embracing the opposite of just what the word humble or humility means? I get it. It can be a mighty tough and troubling thing for a Calvinist to acknowledge to oneself that they've been in error for a great deal of time....maybe even years. What would that be saying about their judgment and discernment ? I would encourage them however to be willing to swallow down that tough pill. None of us are maybe perfect about everything.
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Um that would take humility
 
civic said:

Total ABILITY​

​

James 4:10​

Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

1 Peter 5:6​

Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you,

James 4:6​

But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble."

​

1 Peter 5:5​

​

Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
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Were the LETTERS directed to unbelievers?
If not, then these passages have nothing to do with the ability of NATURAL (fallen) men, only the obligation of NEW (redeemed) men.

civic said:

2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

2 Chronicles 12:12
Because Rehoboam humbled himself, the LORD’s anger turned from him, and he was not totally destroyed. Indeed, there was some good in Judah.

Daniel 10:12​

Then he said to me, “Fear not, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand and humbled yourself before your God, your words have been heard, and I have come because of your words.

1 Kings 21:29​

“Have you seen how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has humbled himself before me, I will not bring the disaster in his days; but in his son's days I will bring the disaster upon his house.”

2 Kings 22:19
Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the LORD.

Zephaniah 2:3​

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.

Micah 6:8​

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Psalm 25:9​

He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way.

Proverbs 11:2​

When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with the humble is wisdom.

Proverbs 3:34​

Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor.
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It is always interesting to point to the OT for an example of Man's Ability. They were God's Chosen People, called out from among the nations of the Earth to be apart, His special possession. They had THE LAW. They had the PATRIARCHS. They had the PROPHETS. Yet, somehow, without fail or exception, they chose disobedience and curses over the blessings that God offered.

It boggles MY imagination that people point to that and say "See, we CAN do it!" when all I can see is "See, they had EVERYTHING and without GOD's intervention, they COULD NOT do it [they did not do it]" ... and without God's effort [Ephesians 2:1-10], neither can we!

civic said:

Matthew 23:12​

Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
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At least you are finally in the Gospels ... the stories written that we might find Life ... the stories written about reaching out to the unsaved.
To whom was Jesus speaking in that specific verse (I like context). Is "salvation" an act of "being exalted"? [I thought that was what you accused Calvinists of teaching with our belief that God saves the ELECT whom He "foreknew" and "predestined"?]
 
atpollard said:
Were the LETTERS directed to unbelievers?
If not, then these passages have nothing to do with the ability of NATURAL (fallen) men, only the obligation of NEW (redeemed) men.


It is always interesting to point to the OT for an example of Man's Ability. They were God's Chosen People, called out from among the nations of the Earth to be apart, His special possession. They had THE LAW. They had the PATRIARCHS. They had the PROPHETS. Yet, somehow, without fail or exception, they chose disobedience and curses over the blessings that God offered.

It boggles MY imagination that people point to that and say "See, we CAN do it!" when all I can see is "See, they had EVERYTHING and without GOD's intervention, they COULD NOT do it [they did not do it]" ... and without God's effort [Ephesians 2:1-10], neither can we!


At least you are finally in the Gospels ... the story's written that we might find Life ... the stories written about reaching out to the unsaved.
To whom was Jesus speaking in that specific verse (I like context). Is "salvation" an act of "being exalted"? [I thought that was what you accused Calvinists of teaching with our belief that God saves the ELECT whom He "foreknew" and "predestined"?]
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In the passages it’s unbelievers that are unregenerate aside from the James passage that can be applied to the unregenerate who have a faith but no works , ie a dead faith calling them to humble themselves
 
atpollard said:
I don't know what the specific argument is, but my personal observation (about other people and about me) is that "humility" is a commodity in short supply and virtually non extant on internet forums. ;)
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I would tend to agree with that my friend. It’s easy to be humble with those who agree with us the challenge is with those who do not agree with us. Taming the tongue in person is much like taming our posts online.

Guilty as charged.
 
civic said:
In the passages it’s unbelievers that are unregenerate aside from the James passage that can be applied to the unregenerate who have a faith but no works , ie a dead faith calling them to humble themselves
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James specifically states that a "dead faith" cannot save you ... making those that posses a dead faith "unsaved".

The NT Letters are - as a general rule - written to THE CHURCH (saved by definition ... ie. those "in Christ"). We (the Church) are just known - from time to time - to be a "hot mess" and in need of a good letter to help us "walk the talk" a bit more WWJD-like. As the saying goes, "God loves us just as we are, and He loves us too much to leave us that way."
 
atpollard said:
James specifically states that a "dead faith" cannot save you ... making those that posses a dead faith "unsaved".

The NT Letters are - as a general rule - written to THE CHURCH (saved by definition ... ie. those "in Christ"). We (the Church) are just known - from time to time - to be a "hot mess" and in need of a good letter to help us "walk the talk" a bit more WWJD-like. As the saying goes, "God loves us just as we are, and He loves us too much to leave us that way."
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I’m sure you would agree just like in the early church there were both saved and unsaved like we have in all our churches today. There are wheat and tares. Many will say to Me Lord Lord when did we see you hungry, thirsty , naked etc .

On the outside many can appear to be saved and as God says her hearts are far away from Him. God sees our hearts man cannot.
 
civic said:
I’m sure you would agree just like in the early church there were both saved and unsaved like we have in all our churches today. There are wheat and tares. Many will say to Me Lord Lord when did we see you hungry, thirsty , naked etc .

On the outside many can appear to be saved and as God says her hearts are far away from Him. God sees our hearts man cannot.
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Yup ... except the problem is the actual word "church" ... we (Christians) are sloppy with terms [especially in ENGLISH, compared to Greek or even Latin]. "Church" (the building where we all gather with a bell on top) is just a building. There is nothing sacred about the structure. Israel had a sacred Tabernacle and God sent Rome to make sure that NOBODY missed the fact that God had moved into a "new apartment" (US).

"Church" the local congregation of "good ole boys" that gather together to sing and hear preachin' is full to the rafters of whatever building they meet in with WHEAT and TARES, SHEEP and GOATS (and a few WOLVES) that God will need to do some sorting when the day comes for the Angels to do the gathering. That's just "sad but true." Worse yet, even among the WHEAT, some are GROWING and spreading seed, and some are just rotting in the pots they have been sitting in ... well, it seems like forever. [Back in my day ...]

"Church" ... the body of believers ... the Children of God ... those sealed with His Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing redemption ... are doing just fine. As long as we define fine as "wandering as strangers in a land that is not our home" and "hated and desposed by the powers and principalities and rulers of this world" and "set apart for tribulation as a living sacrifice to prove that we trust God THROUGH our circumstances because we have set our eye on an imperishable prize that awaits us when we reach the place that IS our home".

The word "CHURCH" feels like the word "HELL" in the KJV bible ... one word used where they really meant 3 different things. In KJV, HELL is sometimes "place of fire/torment" and sometimes "dirt/grave" and sometimes "land of the dead spirits - good and evil". In the same way, CHURCH means different things at different times and they are very different meanings.
 
TomL said:
Ex. 16:4; "And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not" Deut. 8:2; "the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart" Deut. 13:3; "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth" with the "eyes" figure of speech referring to the reality that God looks and sees so that He can "show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him" 2 Chr. 16:9; "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God" Ps. 14:2; "I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings" Jer. 17:10; "I also will no longer drive out before [Israel] any of the nations which Joshua left when he died, so that through them I may test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the Lord, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not" Jud. 2:21-22
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Whoppee... your view is Open Theism
 
TomL said:
Again according to Calvinist theology God knows only because he decrees and determines all

Thus according to your view the decree must be eternal as God therefore all was necessary and God was not free to do otherwise
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Everything about God is eternal including His decree.
 

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