Faith precedes life !

[civic]

Exactly right. Now he needs to provide any text at all which says salvation is a cooperative effort.

they all say it everywhere- faith is mans responsibility. no faith no salvation- unbelief condemns, faith saves.

 

[brightfame52]

True for Paul's audience that is regenerated. Now go find a verse that is as close as possible for the point you're trying to make for unregenerates and then we can explore your heresy further. I'm sure there are dozens out there. Hop to it.

I gave you Rom 10:8-17 to help the conversation along but you're avoiding them like the plague. So I'm leaving it up to you to find verses for unregenerates. If you continue to not find even one that makes your case then it will be obvious to everyone that you're a heretic pure and simple.

I have found a verse and you dont believe it, that they which are in the flesh cant please God, that's the unregenerate. Now if the unregenerate can believe on Christ, Faith, then they could please God, which would contradict Paul's earlier statement in Rom 8:8. And about Rom 10:8-17 as I have said on numerous times, its the regenerate, how could they believe and please God ? Duh

 

[brightfame52]

True for Paul's audience that is regenerated.
What you guys need to do is to make your case with verses that speak of unregenerates, and then we can explore your heresies further. I offered @brightfame52 to discuss Rom 10:8-17 but he approaches those verses like the plague. Therefore, I'm leaving it up to you guys to find verses for unregenerates that you feel comfortable with. If you continue to not find even one that makes your case then it will be crystal clear to you (it's already crystal clear to me) that you guys are espousing heresies.

Pauls audience was the regenerate, and so was them of Rom 10:8-17, People who already had faith in them, Paul heard of their Faith already Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

 

[synergy]

I have found a verse and you dont believe it, that they which are in the flesh cant please God, that's the unregenerate.

Let's do a simple English language comprehension exercise for Rom 8. Tell me, to who are the "those", "me", "who", "you", "we", "many" pronouns pointing to? Regenerates or unregenerates?

(Rom 8:1-17)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Now if the unregenerate can believe on Christ, Faith, then they could please God, which would contradict Paul's earlier statement in Rom 8:8.

Rom 10:7 proves that unregenerates can have faith through hearing the word of God. Our ears and mind are part of our biological flesh. Don't tell me I have to teach you Biology also.

(Rom 10:17) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And about Rom 10:8-17 as I have said on numerous times, its the regenerate, how could they believe and please God ? Duh

Huh? You're mentioning regenerates and asking "how could they believe and please God?" You don't have an answer to that question?

 

[synergy]

Pauls audience was the regenerate, and so was them of Rom 10:8-17, People who already had faith in them, Paul heard of their Faith already Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

If Paul is talking about regenerates (believers who are saved already) in Rom 10:8-17, then why the need to reiterate the requirement to believe and be saved again???? Does one need to be twice saved in your religion???? Calvinists, the Twice Saved. Interesting ring to it.

 

[brightfame52]

Let's do a simple English language comprehension exercise for Rom 8. Tell me, to who are the "those", "me", "who", "you", "we", "many" pronouns pointing to? Regenerates or unregenerates?

(Rom 8:1-17)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

Rom 10:7 proves that unregenerates can have faith through hearing the word of God. Our ears and mind are part of our biological flesh. Don't tell me I have to teach you Biology also.

(Rom 10:17) So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Huh? You're mentioning regenerates and asking "how could they believe and please God?" You don't have an answer to that question?

None of those verses says they which are in the flesh can please God. Thats the unregerate

 

[brightfame52]

If Paul is talking about regenerates (believers who are saved already) in Rom 10:8-17, then why the need to reiterate the requirement to believe and be saved again???? Does one need to be twice saved in your religion???? Calvinists, the Twice Saved. Interesting ring to it.

Paul was writing to them who he had heard of their faith Rom 1:8 and wanted to preach the Gospel to them Vs 15

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

He is speaking about and to these 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Thats who he is writing to in Rom 10.

He isnt speaking to the unregenerate, they have no faith to hear about Duh

 

[synergy]

None of those verses says they which are in the flesh can please God. Thats the unregerate

So we've established that Rom 8 is talking about regenerates since you've offered no counterarguments against that. We're making progress.

Paul was writing to them who he had heard of their faith Rom 1:8 and wanted to preach the Gospel to them Vs 15

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

He is speaking about and to these 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Thats who he is writing to in Rom 10.

He isnt speaking to the unregenerate, they have no faith to hear about Duh

If Paul is talking about regenerates (believers who are saved already) in Rom 10:8-17, then the only reason he would have to reiterate the requirement to believe and be saved is because Calvinists must be saved twice. Calvinists, the Twice Saved. You guys make me laugh because of your silliness.

 

[MTMattie]

I have found a verse and you dont believe it, that they which are in the flesh cant please God, that's the unregenerate.

What verse is this? Romans 8:8?

8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Of course not. But he starts out with 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

What are some of the things of the flesh that God is not pleased with. Druggies and Drunk s spring to mind. Gluttony and Sex also. Ill qualify the sex with illicit sex from rape to same sex and beyond not to forget adultery. How about liars, and thieves... Are these of the flesh? Or murderers.
Just to name a few.

Now if the unregenerate can believe on Christ, Faith, then they could please God, which would contradict Paul's earlier statement in Rom 8:8.

No.... they can and do. But here is the proof that Faith comes before the saving.

Again... Look up Karla Faye Tucker. Dont just scan the drop down list but really read about her.

And about Rom 10:8-17 as I have said on numerous times, its the regenerate, how could they believe and please God ? Duh

Aren't you glad you were a perfect little boy so that when it came your time you didn't need to change?

I cannot say the same for me.... But you are very special among those that I have known. Not sure I should even communicate with you.

 

[MTMattie]

Paul was writing to them who he had heard of their faith Rom 1:8 and wanted to preach the Gospel to them Vs 15

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

He is speaking about and to these 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Thats who he is writing to in Rom 10.

He isnt speaking to the unregenerate, they have no faith to hear about Duh

If you were to come to my door to teach me, and had no idea if I was or was not receptive to your ideas.... How would you first approach me to let me know what needed to be done by me?

Say that you dont see any signs in my home that I would be receptive to learning how and what I would need to do.

Ya maybe have your own version of a Watchtower pamphlet to go over with me?

Generally speaking if I heard this
I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
I would feel as if I was being primed in how to teach my faith to those who did not have it.

 

[synergy]

Aren't you glad you were a perfect little boy so that when it came your time you didn't need to change?

I cannot say the same for me.... But you are very special among those that I have known. Not sure I should even communicate with you.

Interesting... Are you saying that Calvinists are against repenting? They keep saying that God grants repentance but that's only possible if a person actually repents.

 

[brightfame52]

So we've established that Rom 8 is talking about regenerates since you've offered no counterarguments against that. We're making progress.

If Paul is talking about regenerates (believers who are saved already) in Rom 10:8-17, then the only reason he would have to reiterate the requirement to believe and be saved is because Calvinists must be saved twice. Calvinists, the Twice Saved. You guys make me laugh because of your silliness.

You going around in circles

 

[brightfame52]

What verse is this? Romans 8:8?

8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Of course not. But he starts out with 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.

What are some of the things of the flesh that God is not pleased with. Druggies and Drunk s spring to mind. Gluttony and Sex also. Ill qualify the sex with illicit sex from rape to same sex and beyond not to forget adultery. How about liars, and thieves... Are these of the flesh? Or murderers.
Just to name a few.


No.... they can and do. But here is the proof that Faith comes before the saving.

Again... Look up Karla Faye Tucker. Dont just scan the drop down list but really read about her.




Aren't you glad you were a perfect little boy so that when it came your time you didn't need to change?

I cannot say the same for me.... But you are very special among those that I have known. Not sure I should even communicate with you.

Its simple, the unregenerate are in the flesh and so cant please God.

 

[brightfame52]

If you were to come to my door to teach me, and had no idea if I was or was not receptive to your ideas.... How would you first approach me to let me know what needed to be done by me?

Say that you dont see any signs in my home that I would be receptive to learning how and what I would need to do.

Ya maybe have your own version of a Watchtower pamphlet to go over with me?

Generally speaking if I heard this
I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
I would feel as if I was being primed in how to teach my faith to those who did not have it.

Its simple, Paul was writing to people with Faith, he heard about it, wanted to preach to them , thats who they are in Rom 10, its simple, most have just been deceived.

 

[synergy]

You going around in circles

Your total inability to offer any counterargument to all the Biblical evidence I presented clearly demonstrates that calvinism is pure heresy.

Anyways, it's been fun. We came up with slogans like Calvinists, the twice saved.

 

[brightfame52]

Your total inability to offer any counterargument to all the Biblical evidence I presented clearly demonstrates that calvinism is pure heresy.

Anyways, it's been fun. We came up with slogans like Calvinists, the twice saved.

You just going in circles because you deceived. The person in the flesh, the unregenerate, cannot please God, which Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, Sooo the unregenerate in the flesh cant exercise faith, its not even possible

 

[MTMattie]

Interesting... Are you saying that Calvinists are against repenting? They keep saying that God grants repentance but that's only possible if a person actually repents.

No, not against but the more I read from them, that is never mentioned.

You say "They keep saying that God grants repentance but that's only possible if a person actually repents." and perhaps that is why it is not talked of.

 

[synergy]

No, not against but the more I read from them, that is never mentioned.

You say "They keep saying that God grants repentance but that's only possible if a person actually repents." and perhaps that is why it is not talked of.

I'm asking because I've yet to hear a Calvinist admit to his own repentance. Many of them talk about a sudden conversion experience. My best understanding of their experience is as if they were zapped by Thor's lightning bolt. Repentance ends up being a overlooked afterthought for them.

 

[MTMattie]

You just going in circles because you deceived. The person in the flesh, the unregenerate, cannot please God, which Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, Sooo the unregenerate in the flesh cant exercise faith, its not even possible

Answer me this please.

If God bestows His grace on a person and then gifts them their faith.... (no idea how you fit repentence into this)... as we are told in Romans 5:1

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

(I am repeating for this record... I say the gift is the grace ... IOW the gift of God's grace comes because of your faith ) (One of those double meaning verses I mentioned before) Anyway

How long does it take once you have this grace, for faith to at least start if not just grab you as it does many?

If not immediately... and it does not say..... One can be in the flesh... not pleasing God for longer then maybe should be.

And add to that question why...........................................................

Why is grace mentioned before faith in Romans 1:5 but faith before grace in Romans 5:2?​

5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Berean Bible offers this context on verse 5:2
Context
The Triumph of Faith
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
3Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;…
Berean Standard Bible

We have gained access by faith to this grace. Faith does come first!!!

Ok, Im done before I digress more.

 

[brightfame52]

Answer me this please.

If God bestows His grace on a person and then gifts them their faith.... (no idea how you fit repentence into this)... as we are told in Romans 5:1

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

(I am repeating for this record... I say the gift is the grace ... IOW the gift of God's grace comes because of your faith ) (One of those double meaning verses I mentioned before) Anyway

How long does it take once you have this grace, for faith to at least start if not just grab you as it does many?

If not immediately... and it does not say..... One can be in the flesh... not pleasing God for longer then maybe should be.

And add to that question why...........................................................

Why is grace mentioned before faith in Romans 1:5 but faith before grace in Romans 5:2?​

5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Ok, Im done before I digress more.

I dont want to take time for all that, you havent even grasped the most simple truth, the unregenerate person cannot please God