brightfame52
Active Member
No there is no choice to be made, God delares what to be, Its His choice
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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Dizerner
Active Member
I can take God at his Word just fine, but we don't rip one verse out of the context of the entire Bible.
God's promises all have conditions.
DavidTree
Active Member
That certainly is God's Business for HE alone searches the heart = 2 Thess chapter 2
For myself, i know that my heart is wretched and miserable apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
DavidTree
Active Member
Well, i KNOW that i had to make a choice between believing my pain is God's delight = Job's complaint
Or
that my suffering is temporary and that CHRIST and the Gift of His Salvation Endures FOREVER
That is everyone's choice to make = Revelation 12:10-12
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
Dizerner
Active Member
God does not deceive people into thinking they are Christians only to remove their grace.
God gives US the choice.
brightfame52
Active Member
Well hear the word of the Lord Jer 32:40
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
brightfame52
Active Member
God makes the choice Jer 32:40
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Dizerner
Active Member
Well you hear the word of the Lord:
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Heb. 3:12-14 NKJ)
brightfame52
Active Member
Well hear the word of the Lord Jer 32:40
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
DavidTree
Active Member
Satan deceives people into thinking they are doing the will of God = Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
civic
Active Member
So you could be chosen in the same way as Judas was chosen correct ?
civic
Active Member
So salvation is based on you then and not God if that’s the case. You have become Jesus equal as the co savior of your own destiny. It’s all up to you it seems whether you are saved in the present or future.
Hmmmmm
Dizerner
Active Member
Back to Calvinism already?
civic
Active Member
Nothing to do with Calvinism . Any more strawmen lol
That is Paul speaking about his and the other apostles and prophets divine revelation. The "we" there are the recipients of direct revelation by the Holy Spirits to the men of God, not to the ordinary Christian. If what you say is true, then there would have been no need for the likes of the apostles and prophets. If what you say is true, then the entire chapter 10 of Romans would have been unnecessary.
I think you have made some bad assumptions in your analysis in the above. I will come back to address this - hopefully tomorrow.
Dizerner
Active Member
100% to do with Calvinism, you are stating grace is the removal of the contingency of your free will.
How can you not realize that?!
Your own logic can be used against your belief in free will as making salvation dependent on you and your wise choice.
civic
Active Member
Nope my will submits to His will. My faith now is nothing like it was 45 years ago when I was insecure. I have full and complete security in Christ. It just continues to grow and become more secure with every passing week, month, year, decade etc ….
My relationship with Christ is more secure than my relationship with my life partner I married in 85. She will tell you the same thing about her relationship with Christ.
@GodsGrace
Fran, why do you not practice what you say to others? I agree with your assessment, what is plainly written should be plainly accepted, which we will only add ~after comparing scriptures with scriptures.
Again, why do you not practice this when you read such scriptures as these:
Fran, this is truly plainly written, so my question to you is this: why do you reject and speak against so strongly God's sovereign election by his grace alone, by reserving men from following false religion and errors of those false rellgion that are in the world.
Fran, “Grace” ~It is an election of grace, or free favor; that is, a gratuitous election, not by the merit of works of any kind, but purely from the favor of God. Grace and works are here stated as diametrically opposite and totally irreconcilable. If, then, election is by grace, it is not of works; for this would imply a contradiction. Grace would not then be grace. Here we have the warrant of Scripture for asserting that a contradiction is necessarily untrue, and that no authority is sufficient to establish two propositions which actually contradict each other.
Fran, that's why we preach/teach that salvation form sin and condemnation is all of grace apart from works, which includes any work that man has an active part in in order for that person to be born again.
Enough said on this point for now.
I read through this thread yesterday to get caught up and mark two of your posit to respond to, this one being the first.
Fran, why do you not practice what you say to others? I agree with your assessment, what is plainly written should be plainly accepted, which we will only add ~after comparing scriptures with scriptures.
Again, why do you not practice this when you read such scriptures as these:
Fran, than this that is written above, nothing can be more explicit. God had formerly reserved for Himself, by His gracious influence and special agency, a small number in Israel; and in the same way, at the time when the Apostle wrote, He had reserved, according to His sovereign choice, a remnant of that nation. And to set aside every idea that this election was the reward of an inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, the Apostle adds that it was of grace. It was an unconditional choice, resulting from the sovereign free favor of God.
Fran, this is truly plainly written, so my question to you is this: why do you reject and speak against so strongly God's sovereign election by his grace alone, by reserving men from following false religion and errors of those false rellgion that are in the world.
Fran, “Grace” ~It is an election of grace, or free favor; that is, a gratuitous election, not by the merit of works of any kind, but purely from the favor of God. Grace and works are here stated as diametrically opposite and totally irreconcilable. If, then, election is by grace, it is not of works; for this would imply a contradiction. Grace would not then be grace. Here we have the warrant of Scripture for asserting that a contradiction is necessarily untrue, and that no authority is sufficient to establish two propositions which actually contradict each other.
Fran, that's why we preach/teach that salvation form sin and condemnation is all of grace apart from works, which includes any work that man has an active part in in order for that person to be born again.
Enough said on this point for now.
@GodsGrace
Abraham was not saved legally by either his faith or his works, neither had any part of his salvation from sin and condemnation ~if so, he could boast before God, but that will never happen.
We say according to God's word that both faith and Abraham's works proved him to be a true child of God's promises of grace, a huge difference.
Fran consider carefully: "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?"
Fran, we cannot look to our flesh, as we are by nature, and think for one second, our flesh had one thing to do with us obtaining the free gift of eternal. Paul makes it so clear here that as far as pertaining the flesh, Abraham as great as he was, did not one thing toward obtaining his inheritance of the world to come, not one thing. Now that being said, he proved his faith by his works of righteousness which came from a new nature given freely by grace alone.
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Fran, what did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).
We ask: Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? No he did not. Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.
Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. You ad many others fall under this teaching.
Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.
We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification. Impossible, only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is the means of our legal justification.
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis14:18-20)?
Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!
Fran, let me ask you this question and answer if you can: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?
Looking forward to your answers.
Fran, here's the other one that I have marked for discussion.
Abraham was not saved legally by either his faith or his works, neither had any part of his salvation from sin and condemnation ~if so, he could boast before God, but that will never happen.
Romans 4:1,2
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."We say according to God's word that both faith and Abraham's works proved him to be a true child of God's promises of grace, a huge difference.
Fran consider carefully: "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?"
Fran, we cannot look to our flesh, as we are by nature, and think for one second, our flesh had one thing to do with us obtaining the free gift of eternal. Paul makes it so clear here that as far as pertaining the flesh, Abraham as great as he was, did not one thing toward obtaining his inheritance of the world to come, not one thing. Now that being said, he proved his faith by his works of righteousness which came from a new nature given freely by grace alone.
Galatians 3:6~"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Fran, what did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).
We ask: Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time? No he did not. Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.
Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. You ad many others fall under this teaching.
Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.
We deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification. Impossible, only the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ is the means of our legal justification.
The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.
The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?
Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted! Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire (Genesis14:18-20)?
Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Genesis 15:1)!
If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!
Fran, let me ask you this question and answer if you can: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?
Looking forward to your answers.
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