Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[brightfame52]

Would you then say that your post here with Jeremiah 32:40 agrees with post 3,054

No there is no choice to be made, God delares what to be, Its His choice

 

[Dizerner]

God says they shall not depart from Him, can you take God at His word ?

I can take God at his Word just fine, but we don't rip one verse out of the context of the entire Bible.

God's promises all have conditions.

 

[DavidTree]

Under Calvinism God might let someone think they are elect for a long time only to remove their false grace and show them as a vessel of wrath. It's like they are all walking with that uncertainty of not knowing whether God is just setting them up.

That certainly is God's Business for HE alone searches the heart = 2 Thess chapter 2

For myself, i know that my heart is wretched and miserable apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[DavidTree]

No there is no choice to be made, God delares what to be, Its His choice

Well, i KNOW that i had to make a choice between believing my pain is God's delight = Job's complaint
Or
that my suffering is temporary and that CHRIST and the Gift of His Salvation Endures FOREVER

That is everyone's choice to make = Revelation 12:10-12

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

 

[Dizerner]

That certainly is God's Business for HE alone searches the heart = 2 Thess chapter 2

God does not deceive people into thinking they are Christians only to remove their grace.

God gives US the choice.

 

[brightfame52]

I can take God at his Word just fine, but we don't rip one verse out of the context of the entire Bible.

God's promises all have conditions.

Well hear the word of the Lord Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[brightfame52]

Well, i KNOW that i had to make a choice between believing my pain is God's delight = Job's complaint
Or
that my suffering is temporary and that CHRIST and the Gift of His Salvation Endures FOREVER

That is everyone's choice to make = Revelation 12:10-12

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

God makes the choice Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[Dizerner]

Well hear the word of the Lord Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Well you hear the word of the Lord:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Heb. 3:12-14 NKJ)

 

[brightfame52]

Well you hear the word of the Lord:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, (Heb. 3:12-14 NKJ)

Well hear the word of the Lord Jer 32:40

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

 

[DavidTree]

God does not deceive people into thinking they are Christians only to remove their grace.

God gives US the choice.

Satan deceives people into thinking they are doing the will of God = Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[civic]

No there is no choice to be made, God delares what to be, Its His choice

So you could be chosen in the same way as Judas was chosen correct ?

 

[civic]

God does not deceive people into thinking they are Christians only to remove their grace.

God gives US the choice.

So salvation is based on you then and not God if that’s the case. You have become Jesus equal as the co savior of your own destiny. It’s all up to you it seems whether you are saved in the present or future.

Hmmmmm

 

[Dizerner]

So salvation is based on you then and not God if that’s the case. You have become Jesus equal as the co savior of your own destiny. It’s all up to you it seems whether you are saved in the present or future.

Hmmmmm

Back to Calvinism already?

 

[civic]

Back to Calvinism already?

Nothing to do with Calvinism . Any more strawmen lol

 

[Jim]

What do you mean ? However believers in regeneration have the mind of Christ which is another subject 1 Cor 2

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

That is Paul speaking about his and the other apostles and prophets divine revelation. The "we" there are the recipients of direct revelation by the Holy Spirits to the men of God, not to the ordinary Christian. If what you say is true, then there would have been no need for the likes of the apostles and prophets. If what you say is true, then the entire chapter 10 of Romans would have been unnecessary.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Yes, overall I agree with these words, but will add just a little to this. Brother, before we (you and I) were converted the true faith, the only true faith in this world, the rellgion of Jesus Christ, we truly had no ideal just how wicked we were by nature, not even close.

Romans 7:9​

“For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”

For I was alive without the law once~ Paul thought himself alive, in a justifying way, before he learned God condemned his lusts. When sin is dead in the sense just given (7:8), then a religious person (like Paul was) thinks himself alive before God, Though Paul had Moses’ Law from birth, he did not grasp the strict prohibition against lust.

But when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died~ The commandment historically came at Sinai, but Paul described his understanding of it. If lust was dead and Paul was alive before he understood, then sin came to life, and he died. It is by hearing and understand the law that we come to see our sins as they truly are according to the strict law of God. (James 1:21-25). As a regenerate child of God, Paul finally after his Damascus road experience begin to see that in his flesh dwelled no good thing, Jim, not one! He added this:

Romans 7:24​

“O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

O wretched man that I am!

The death that Paul had described repeatedly regarding the Law was due to his sinful body. As we well know, it was not the Law that was wretched, for it was in fact holy, just, good, and spiritual (7:12). It was Paul’s fleshly members and old nature by his first birth that was wretchedly sinful. That's why (one of many scriptures) I hold to totally depravity of all men by nature. It did not matter that Paul agreed with the Jews that the Law was holy, just, good, and spiritual (7:12,14), for it is only the keeping of the Law that mattered (2:13). Jim, regarding justification, our condition and situation are hopeless without a Saviour to save!

Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul’s body, and our bodies as well, with a law of sin in them, allows no hope from the flesh. Jim, WHY do men like you exalt man's free will to do spiritual acts pleasing unto God with such scriptures as these we are now reading? I tis hard to imagine men like doing this, so I leave it in God's hands, as the final judge of all men's hearts.

Jim, We have bodily members and a principle of wickedness in our flesh that can only sin forever , even in our most holy moments! This should grieve us all, surely it does you.

Therefore, we need a Saviour, because our flesh will not and can not fulfill the Law for our justification. Therefore, we need a Saviour, because our flesh will not fulfill the Law for our sanctification. Jesus does not directly save us from the Law, for it is not Moses’ Law that is the cause of our guilt and condemnation, but rather our sinful depravity and propensities that break the Law.

The next verse and following into Romans 8 are wonderful to our believing hearts and gives us great comfort. Later on this.

Jim much more so! Before being born again, I loved my sins, and thought I would wait until the end of my life and then get saved having the best of two worlds! I actually thought this, but God had other plans for me, which I'm eternally grateful he did.

Well, Jim you are a very intelligent person, that I know very well, debating you for almost fifteen years or longer~You are quoting directly from Paul's words and strait out reject what he is saying so plainly! How can you do that with a clear conscience, is beyond me. Neither of us have many more years left, and maybe I even less, since my health has gone down faster than I desire in the last three years, or so, we cannot play with God's word, but must accept it just as it is written by comparing scriptures with scriptures and making them have a perfect flow from one to another, that you cannot do with this subject, even with your powerful reasoning gift given to you.

Romans 8:7​

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Jim, the natural men can do certain acts of kindness, this none would deny, but they cannot do it in the manner in which the law of God commands us, on the spiritual level that the law demands, even a child of God cannot!

Of course Paul is speaking about doing God's commandments as the LAW COMMANDS, which no man has ever done, EXCEPT ONE, and that's who we look to for our free justification unto eternal life. While living in the flesh, Paul saw another law working IN HIM, that is in his flesh, that grieved his holy new man, which was created after the image of Jesus Christ, who DID loved and delighted in God's law perfectly, and rendered perfect obedience for us in our place as our surety, before God's law.

Later...

I think you have made some bad assumptions in your analysis in the above. I will come back to address this - hopefully tomorrow.

 

[Dizerner]

Nothing to do with Calvinism . Any more strawmen lol

100% to do with Calvinism, you are stating grace is the removal of the contingency of your free will.

How can you not realize that?!

Your own logic can be used against your belief in free will as making salvation dependent on you and your wise choice.

 

[civic]

100% to do with Calvinism, you are stating grace is the removal of the contingency of your free will.

How can you not realize that?!

Your own logic can be used against your belief in free will as making salvation dependent on you and your wise choice.

Nope my will submits to His will. My faith now is nothing like it was 45 years ago when I was insecure. I have full and complete security in Christ. It just continues to grow and become more secure with every passing week, month, year, decade etc ….

My relationship with Christ is more secure than my relationship with my life partner I married in 85. She will tell you the same thing about her relationship with Christ.