Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Jim]

@Jim

No Jim, that's not how it works, and of course you know that.

The truth is this: God by His mighty power quickens an elect sinner to life, and in this quickening, he creates a new man within us, and it is the NEW MAN that has spiritual power to believe, to obey and to live according to the scriptures. This new man is created after the image of Jesus Christ, the second Adam. Why do you reject this blessed truth, for depending on your flesh to please God, when you should know that it is impossible for those in flesh to please Him, one MUST be in the Spirit to please God and have the powers to do spiritual acts acceptable unto Him. What does Romans 7:18-8:13 mean to you? Obviously, not that much.

Yes, Red, I understand quite well your belief that faith comes as a result of being the new creation, the new man, the born again. But that is the heresy of Augustine, of Calvin, of all those who hold to monergistic theory of regeneration. That of course is never given us in scripture; but is, rather, required to overcome the false doctrine of total depravity.

With respect to Romans 7:14-8:13, that passage means a lot to me. It sets out the truth and the proof that grace gives us the victory over sin. Specifically, in verses 14-20, Paul describes the nature of the struggle we as Christians contend with every day. He does that in a rather curious way of personifying sin as a being in competition with the indwelling Spirit. In verses 21-25, Paul compares the "law of God" with the "law of sin" which is the source of that struggle we face throughout our lives. The key point here is that we as Christians struggle against sin even after having been born again.

So that while the struggle against sin that we face as Christians does not cease when we are born again, we are given a victory over sin through the indwelling Holy Spirit, through having been born again. That is all laid out in Romans 8:1-13, where we see in verse 1-4 that God has freed us from sin's penalty and power. And in verses 5-13 we see that freedom from the penalty and power of sin derives from the Holy Spirit. Sin and death are defeated in us, not through the law, but rather though the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Having said all of that, a key question is what Paul means when he says, in 8:8 that "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God". You incorrectly interpret that to mean that absolutely nothing that you do pleases God and that even when you obey His law, albeit not perfectly, God is displeased with your obedience. That is simply not true.

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Galatians 5:22,23​

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”

Some day, maybe, you will finally come to the realization that your beloved KJV gets some things wrong. But I won't hold my breath on that happening any time soon.

Jim, you better than to say what you did here. Jim, theses are the spiritual of the Spirit that is produce by Him dwelling IN US. Our natural flesh cannot produce any of these fruits to the degree that they are acceptable in His sight! All those still in flesh produce the likeness of these fruits, but at best a sinful, wicked likeness, much like an timely fig tree produces fruits that are not good to eat.

You are trying to convince us that those not born again cannot display nor experience love, joy, longsuffering, gentleness, etc. But that is simply not true. In the comparisons given between the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit is not that the works of the flesh cease once one is born again. It is that in sanctification, the Christian has the help of the Holy Spirit to do the works of the flesh less and less as one matures in his Christian life and to live more and more a life that does the works of the Spirit.

Even worse is the inappropriate translation/interpretation by the KJV that faith, rather than faithfulness, is given there as a fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

@Jim

Yes, Red, I understand quite well your belief that faith comes as a result of being the new creation, the new man, the born again. But that is the heresy of Augustine, of Calvin, of all those who hold to monergistic theory of regeneration. That of course is never given us in scripture; but is, rather, required to overcome the false doctrine of total depravity.

To an old friend I send my greetings and always with true affections for your faith in the scriptures, even though we sometimes are worlds apart in our understanding. But, before God, I truly acknowledge your faith and love for the word of God, and for your position on many other truths we do share together, God being my witness.

You said: "But that is the heresy of Augustine, of Calvin, of all those who hold to monergistic theory of regeneration."

Jim, it may surprise you, but I have read very little from Augustine on this subject, and then only after I came to the knowledge of these truth ~ I did I read some of his works, but very little; more on eschatology which he was surprisingly correct on, even over sixteen hundred years ago ~ truly remarkable.

I have read behind some on Calvin, but much more behind A. W. Pink ~ but Jim, believe it or not, it was Dr. M.R. DeHann, that actually got me thinking and caused me to dig deeper concerning God's election of grace. I was taught that God foresaw who would believe, and thereby elected them, which of course never made much sense to me, and Mr. DeHann said in a little booklet someone gave to me on God's predestination, that the scriptures NO where tell us what was in God foreknowledge that caused him to have an election of grace, and from there my eyes were open more and more until I saw the THE TRUTH clearly! That was back in the mid seventies.

Do not blame Calvin or Augustine who just happened to preach the same truth.

With respect to Romans 7:14-8:13, that passage means a lot to me.

I'm sure it does.

It sets out the truth and the proof that grace gives us the victory over sin. Specifically, in verses 14-20, Paul describes the nature of the struggle we as Christians contend with every day. He does that in a rather curious way of personifying sin as a being in competition with the indwelling Spirit. In verses 21-25, Paul compares the "law of God" with the "law of sin" which is the source of that struggle we face throughout our lives. The key point here is that we as Christians struggle against sin even after having been born again.

So that while the struggle against sin that we face as Christians does not cease when we are born again, we are given a victory over sin through the indwelling Holy Spirit, through having been born again. That is all laid out in Romans 8:1-13, where we see in verse 1-4 that God has freed us from sin's penalty and power. And in verses 5-13 we see that freedom from the penalty and power of sin derives from the Holy Spirit. Sin and death are defeated in us, not through the law, but rather though the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Having said all of that, a key question is what Paul means when he says, in 8:8 that "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God". You incorrectly interpret that to mean that absolutely nothing that you do pleases God and that even when you obey His law, albeit not perfectly, God is displeased with your obedience. That is simply not true.

Jim, I'm coming back and look into this more, I do not want to rush through this. I've a meeting soon. Later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._R._DeHaan​

 

[brightfame52]

@armylngst

Saying a lie over and over doesn't make it the truth

Evidently telling you the truth over and over doesnt give you belief of the Truth. I know what the greek says, its supports what Im saying as well as the english, and the rest of scripture.

 

[Jim]

Jim, I'm coming back and look into this more, I do not want to rush through this. I've a meeting soon. Later.

I am always anxious to consider your thoughts on these topics. I seldom agree with you, but at least I consider you to be far more rational in your arguments than so many who hold similar views.

 

[civic]

@armylngst



Evidently telling you the truth over and over doesnt give you belief of the Truth. I know what the greek says, its supports what Im saying as well as the english, and the rest of scripture.

I don't think you can read, translate and write in Greek- you rely on others to do that for you.

Many on this forum have studied Greek and taken classes in seminary. In my mid 20's I had a seminary professor who taught N.T. Greek and also Hebrew as my next door neighbor who was also my pastor and gave me one on one for 2 years of seminary level Greek.

But like any language if you don't use it you loose it I'm nowhere as good in my 60's as I was in my 20's and 30's. But I still know enough to get by and be dangerous lol.

 

[brightfame52]

@armylngst

Salvation is not repentance.

Actually it accompanies Salvation when God gives it 2 Cor 7:10

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

But it comes from a Godly source and not from the flesh of man. God grants it 2 Tim 2:25

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
Acts 11:18

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life or Salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

I don't think you can read, translate and write in Greek

Ive studied it in bible college and seminary, I have studied others who were greek experts, and there are an ample amount of greek helps online. I have read and mused upon close to 50-60 different greek scholars on Eph 2:8 over the past 40yrs, most of all I have the Spirit of Truth leading me. I know enough greek to be a competent preacher of the Gospel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@civic



Ive studied it in bible college and seminary, I have studied others who were greek experts, and there are an ample amount of greek helps online. I have read and mused upon close to 50-60 different greek scholars on Eph 2:8 over the past 40yrs, most of all I have the Spirit of Truth leading me. I know enough greek to be a competent preacher of the Gospel.

yet even greek scholars who have years of college and study can not all agree.

knowing greek does not make you right.

 

[brightfame52]

yet even greek scholars who have years of college and study can not all agree.

knowing greek does not make you right.

I already know that, I have had greek professors who disagreed with one another. Im going to say this, the greek is a fine tool to have in understanding scripture, but its also a hazard when it leads one to interpret scripture contrary to the mind of the Spirit, so comparing scripture with scripture is the most proficient way to understand scripture. Knowing greek or hebrew isnt a Spiritual ability.

 

[DavidTree]

The guy speaks about apostates at about the 4 minute mark and claims if one leaves the Christian faith then he does not know if that person was ever really saved to begin with. Their walking away reveals something he could not see, that being, they are backsliden but still saved or they were never really saved.

1) I am not familiar where the Bible teaches the idea of backsliden person who remained saved (Jer 2:19; 3:22; 8:5). The Hebrew epistle is a warning to Hebrew converts about leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism again. Nothing indicates they will still be saved by leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism for the context of Hebrews indicates they would become lost due to that backsliding...."Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Heb 4:11. Backsliding leads to loss of salvation due to falling as a result of unbelief.

2)
apostate - apostasia
from Biblehub.com: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

Apostasy means a change of position or location. The word fall also carries the idea of change of position or location. If I fall from a tree upon the ground then I left a previous position in the tree to a different position on the ground.

1 Cor 10:12 take heed lest ye fall from Greek pipto
Thayer - descent from a higher place to a lower; to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost; fall from a state of uprightness.

So as far as a person leaving the Christian faith indicating they were never really saved:
one cannot leave something they were never part of, I cannot leave a room if I was never in the room. Hence one cannot leave the faith if he was never in the faith. If I was always lost and never saved then I cannot fall from salvation that I never had, I cannot fall from a faith I never possessed. One cannot fall from uprightness if he was never upright.

At least 2 logical conclusions can be drawn from falling
1) one cannot fall from a position they were never in...one cannot fall from a tree he was never in just as one cannot fall grace if he were never in grace.
2) one cannot fall into something they already are in....one cannot fall into condemnation if one already is in condemnation...a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen.

Backsliding, lost forever?

In this piece we look at whether people who fall back into sin are lost forever. Or that there is still salvation for them.

www.biblword.net

The above link claims from Heb 6 that backsliding/falling away is only "hypothetical", falling away is not real or actual. Yet the context states speaks of those who already have fallen away; "have fallen away" ESV; "and then fell away" ASV; "and having fallen away" YLT
The Hebrew writer is not dealing in hypotheticals but actually speaking of those who already have fallen away.

You made some excellent points = Thank You

2) one cannot fall into something they already are in....one cannot fall into condemnation if one already is in condemnation...a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen.

Let's think on this for a moment = the Jewish people = Romans chapters 9 -11

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[DavidTree]

If our salvation depends on anything but the finished work of Christ on the cross, we are in trouble. Or, at best, we run the risk of being in trouble. If you and I have any part in maintaining our salvation, it will be difficult to live with much assurance. Hope, yes; assurance, no.

Yet John wrote an entire epistle to assure a group of people, people he was not even around to observe, that they were in fact saved:

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ.

AGREE with your post here with this exception: "I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ."

What if you turn away and decide NOT to live in abiding in Christ?
@civic @Dizerner @mailmandan

 

[civic]

@civic



Ive studied it in bible college and seminary, I have studied others who were greek experts, and there are an ample amount of greek helps online. I have read and mused upon close to 50-60 different greek scholars on Eph 2:8 over the past 40yrs, most of all I have the Spirit of Truth leading me. I know enough greek to be a competent preacher of the Gospel.

Are you saying if I were to place a Greek NT in front of you not an interlinear you could read a passage and translate if from Greek to English without any aids ?

 

[Foster]

AGREE with your post here with this exception: "I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ."

What if you turn away and decide NOT to live in abiding in Christ?
@civic @Dizerner @mailmandan

That's when the Holy Spirit steps in and guides you into the truth. He sets us back on the road to our sanctification.

“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” John 17:17

 

[DavidTree]

That's when the Holy Spirit steps in and guides you into the truth. He sets us back on the road to our sanctification.

“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” John 17:17

AGREE

What if you harden your heart against the Holy Spirit = we are warned = "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit"

i am NOT against OSAS when it is in it's RightFULL Domain, which is CHRIST = John 10:25-30

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
I and My Father are one.”

 

[Tranquil]

That's when the Holy Spirit steps in and guides you into the truth. He sets us back on the road to our sanctification.

“Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” John 17:17

Once saved always saved, Paul makes it clear that Christians have been justified

For the demonstration.... of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
—Romans 3:26

In the past, God granted us justification, a once-for-all, positional holiness in Christ. In the present, God guides us to maturity, a practical, progressive holiness. In the future, God will give us glorification, a permanent, ultimate holiness. These three phases of sanctification separate the believer from the penalty of sin "justification", the power of sin "maturity", and the presence of sin "glorification".

 

[JLB]

My response ended with a question mark and was in response to your comment about no such word or term in scripture as “nominal Christian”. So, if there are no "nominal" Christians in scripture then the only other conclusion in 1 John 2:4 would be they were genuine Christians (which obviously they were not). That was my point. There is no need for you to get bent out of shape and falsely accuse me of deception. What does that say about your mindset?

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:5


1 John 2:4 plainly refers to He who says.

Anybody who says they know Him, but don’t keep His Commandments are liars.

 

[civic]

AGREE with your post here with this exception: "I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ."

What if you turn away and decide NOT to live in abiding in Christ?
@civic @Dizerner @mailmandan

Abiding in Christ is synomous with the call to be His disciple. Deny yourself , take up your cross daily and follow Him. Jesus told them if you love Me you will obey my commands. And we know His commands are not burdensome. We love because He first loved us. And we know from 1 Corinthians 15:1-9 that love is not about ourselves its about others. When we are really loving God/Christ will all of our heart, mind, soul and strength then loving others will be the result of a heart/mind thats set on the things above not on the things/mindset of this world, the flesh and the devil. When we are abiding in Christ which is walking in the spirit then loving God and others are the byproduct of walking in Christ, the spirit.

I never think of ever turning away, not believing in Him. I did as a young believer but as I grew over time and my faith grew in the Lord seeing Him act in my life in so many ways I did not see coming or possible I saw and still see His faithfulness. He will never leave you or forsake you. Thats a promise. And there are so many promises He gives to the believer. As we believe those and walk in faith/obedience from a heart of gratitude we are fulfilling the royal law of love as James puts it. When our focus is on Him and serving other and not our selfish wants/desires God does amazing things daily presenting opportunities to pour into the lives of others as His hands/feet.

The Christian life is no about me, its about Him and others. We are the biggest stumbling block in our own walk. Jesus set our example as He came to serve and looked out for the interest of others. Have this same mindset as Paul says in Philippians 2:1-11.

Sorry for rambling on but I could talk about this all day long. I'm very passionate about Jesus call to discipleship and what that looks like daily. I find this to be the biggest struggle with the men I meet with every week and what the Christian life and relationship with God looks like on a daily basis.

hope this helps !!!

 

[JLB]

so you just admited you obey to stay saved.

Thank you

You are in error

Only those who keep His commandments remain in Christ.

• he who keeps His commandments abides in Him,

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 John 3:24


Those who promote otherwise are serving the devil.

 

[JLB]

Yes. It does not mean they lost salvation. they lost the right to have fellowship.

Do the lost need salvation?