Excellent Discussion on OSAS

So, when you received a gift that required batteries, and were given the batteries later, were the batteries a part of the gift or simply a component necessary for you to use the gift?
You trying to equate human carnal wisdom matters with Spiritual things. Faith accompanies Salvation which is a Gift. When something accompanies something its joined together with it.

Its like when Paul wrote this Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

There are Spiritual things given freely The WITH Christ

The word with is the greek prep sun and means:

accompany (with G2064) (1x). soon; a primary preposition denoting union; with or together
God gave Christ to die for the elect as a Gift and with Him He freely bestows all things appropriate to save them from their sin. In fact the words freely give means:
χαρίζομαι:

  1. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
  2. to give graciously, give freely, bestow
    1. to forgive

So with Christ God gives, grants forgiveness of sins, they have no sins charged against them, they are Justified from all sin. That accompanies Christ as a Gift
 
Is there was a difference between the “Body of Christ” and the “Bride of Christ”.


 
Faith is not a gift from God. It is something God commanded man to have/do/exhibit. Salvation is the gift.
Ok.... Lets look at this and then maybe you can explain why there are so many lukewarm Christians as Jesus said in Rev 3:15 ...
‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.'!

If God gives the gift of Salvation.... And then commands men to have/do/exhibit FAITH ..... since it is a command....... what happens if the faith part never happens? What happens if "And without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb 11:6"

We all know people, some who are on here based on what they write, are not so invested in faith but still show the obligatory
interest in Him .

They are the believers in what they have read in the four corners of the Holy Bible but .... ???? ...( looking for wording) it has not filled them as one who we all have experienced is so filled with the Holy Spirit it is evident. These folks are those who have settled into a lifestyle of spiritual casualness.

God has always made a distinction between those who are interested in Him and those who are totally surrendered to Him.

So, for such a one like this... is it enough that their salvation is totally secure?
 
Are sinners ”in the faith”?
The one called "sinner" in this passage WERE in the faith, before they strayed from the truth.
Non sequitur. It is speaking of the pruning of Israel to separate “not my sheep” from “my sheep”.
Pruning is NOT separating “not my sheep” from “my sheep”. Separating “not my sheep” from “my sheep” would be cutting the whole branch from the vine. Pruning removes dead and wasteful pieces of individual branches to make them more fruitful, it does not remove the whole branch (which is only done for branches that do not bear any fruit).
Undoubtedly. Will any say “someone in the faith fell away”, that is the question.
Absolutely
 
Are sinners ”in the faith”?
Notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth...turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us.. So, is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in verse 20 would be the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death." (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16)

If this person was a genuine believer, how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. The Greek word translated “soul” is “psyche,” which has within its scope of meaning both “life” and “person.” Jesus said, “The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life [psyche] a ransom for many.” (Matt. 20:28) But no one would argue that Christ gave up His eternal life. He did not risk eternal judgment; He gave up His mortal life.

In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died". In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning--physical death) through the water" by the ark. (Hebrews 11:7)

So, we could safely translate that clause as “he will save a life from death” or “he will save a person from physical death.” In other words, by bringing a wandering saint back to the truth we help them avoid premature death just as God brought death on people within the Corinthian church for participating unworthily in the Lord’s Supper. (1 Corinthians 11:29-30) It was a means of judgment, but not eternal separation. In verse 32, we read - But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

This may be what the Apostle John had in mind in 1 John 5:16. Certain folks jump to the conclusion that 1 John 5:16 is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not fit the context. 1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; (does not deliberately and knowingly practice committing sin - AMPC)) but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

As for sins being covered, Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins." Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.
 
Ok.... Lets look at this and then maybe you can explain why there are so many lukewarm Christians as Jesus said in Rev 3:15 ...
‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.'!

If God gives the gift of Salvation.... And then commands men to have/do/exhibit FAITH ..... since it is a command....... what happens if the faith part never happens? What happens if "And without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb 11:6"
Some faith had to be present in order for them to be saved in the first place. Because as Eph 2:8-9 says, the gift of salvation comes to man THROUGH faith. But if faith ceases (the person goes back into a life of unrepentant sin), then the person falls back out of salvation into being "a sinner" and are destined for Hell (James 5:19-20).
We all know people, some who are on here based on what they write, are not so invested in faith but still show the obligatory
interest in Him.
There is no commandment in Scripture that we should "show interest" in Him. All those who are only "interested" in Him are on the wide path that leads to destruction. Interest in Him is absolutely essential, but it is not enough to be only "interested"; we must go beyond interest to faith.
They are the believers in what they have read in the four corners of the Holy Bible but .... ???? ...( looking for wording) it has not filled them as one who we all have experienced is so filled with the Holy Spirit it is evident. These folks are those who have settled into a lifestyle of spiritual casualness.
Very true. And this is the lukewarmness that God says is so detestable to Him. It amounts to taking His name in vain (putting on His name, and then acting contrary to His character).
God has always made a distinction between those who are interested in Him and those who are totally surrendered to Him.

So, for such a one like this... is it enough that their salvation is totally secure?
The one who is totally surrendered to Him is totally secure, because whenever he notices that he is off course he corrects his course to come back to the Light (a good example is David after he murdered Uriah and took his widow as wife). But the one who is only interested now may at one time have been totally committed; they may have surrendered to God and been saved. But the cares of this world, and the "bling" of this life have choked out their commitment or distracted them from God (see the parable of the soils) to the point where they are no longer committed, and they fall into unrepentant sin. These, as James tells us, need to be reached by those of us who remain faithful, to bring them back to the Light. If we don't, they may be lost forever.
 
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
—2 Corinthians 1:21–22

The Holy Spirit is a pledge of God’s intentions. He is not finished with us yet. But the presence of the Spirit demonstrates God’s commitment to complete what He has started. If salvation is not permanent, God is simply playing games by sending the Spirit into our hearts.
Amen! 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

2 Corinthians 5:5 - Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.

What the Bible says about Arrabon

God finishes what He started. (Philippians 1:6) :)
 
@Doug Brents
The word of God says Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
What is the subject of this sentence? You.
What is the action in this sentence? Saved.
What is the object of that action? Grace (which simply means gift).
Saved is the gift. By a gift you receive salvation. And you receive salvation through faith.
You receive strength through exercise.
You receive knowledge through study.
You receive wisdom through experience.
In all of these, the gift is received through something that you do. Faith is something that you do (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).
 
Is there was a difference between the “Body of Christ” and the “Bride of Christ”.


Hello @Phoebe,

There is a thread covering this on the forum, which you may like to see, this is the link:-


In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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What is the subject of this sentence? You.
What is the action in this sentence? Saved.
What is the object of that action? Grace (which simply means gift).
Saved is the gift. By a gift you receive salvation. And you receive salvation through faith.
You receive strength through exercise.
You receive knowledge through study.
You receive wisdom through experience.
In all of these, the gift is received through something that you do. Faith is something that you do (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26).
I know that greek construction argument, but greek isnt the final authority in scripture truth, the scriptures are. And its as plain as the nose on your face, the faith in Salvation is a gift of God. In fact in the greek the word faith has the definite article, its not the faith of the sinner, that never has the definite article, its the Gift of God Faith, not of your own

8 For by grace are ye saved through the faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρο
Saved is in the passive voice. he is not active but passive in the process ! So your statement
Faith is not a gift from God.

Is error, it contradicts Eph 2:8
 
@Doug Brents

Saved is the gift. By a gift you receive salvation. And you receive salvation through faith.

The sinner receives Faith with Salvation, Faith is given by Grace

So Paul writes its by Faith so to be by Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


See Grace gives Faith to all the Spiritual seed of Abraham, because God promised him spiritual children, God called him a Father of many nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
God mand him the Father of all that believe, Rom 4:11


And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Gal 3 7

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Every time a person believes in Jesus, its God fulfilling His Promise to Abraham, like He did with Isaac, a promised child, and so as Isaac is, so is every child of faith Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Finally, a believer is a child of promise by the power, promise and grace of God as Issac was.
 
I know that greek construction argument, but greek isnt the final authority in scripture truth, the scriptures are. And its as plain as the nose on your face, the faith in Salvation is a gift of God.
Greek is the language in which the Scripture was originally written. And it was written in a language that was very young at the time of its writing, and then that language died shortly thereafter. Meaning that the definitions, and structure of the language has not changed since the Scripture was written (in contrast to languages like Latin and English which have changed dramatically in their histories). This means that the structure of the writing was VERY IMPORTANT.
In fact in the greek
First the Greek doesn't matter, and now you use it to make a point (erroneous though it is)?
the word faith has the definite article, its not the faith of the sinner, that never has the definite article, its the Gift of God Faith, not of your own

8 For by grace are ye saved through the faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρο
Saved is in the passive voice. he is not active but passive in the process!
There is only one faith, so stating that we are saved through THE faith is certainly correct. But that does not change the fact that faith (even THE faith) is not the focus of the passage. The focus is on salvation being the gift of God, and salvation being received THROUGH the Faith.
 
@Doug Brents



The sinner receives Faith with Salvation, Faith is given by Grace
Faith is NOT given WITH salvation, because faith is the conduit through which salvation is received.
Faith is only given by God in that God has given us Him in whom we place our faith, and examples of God's faithfulness upon which to make our faith sure.
An example: If you see a 500 pound man sit in a chair, you can have faith in the chair's ability to hold you up. But your possession of faith does not occur until you put your weight in the chair. You don't have faith in the chair while you are standing in front of it, or beside it, or watching it on a screen. Faith is active trust, and you don't really trust the chair until you have put your butt (and all your weight) in it.
So Paul writes its by Faith so to be by Grace Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Salvation is of trust/faith, so that it can be a gift. It is not earned by being good enough. It is received by doing what He said causes the reception of it (Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, Acts 2:38).
 
@Doug Brents

Greek is the language in which the Scripture was originally written.

And ? Is that why Paul said the greeks seek for wisdom over the Gospel ? 1 Cor 1 22

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Understanding the Gospel Truths take a spiritual revelation, not knowing greek. God in His wise providence had the scriptures translated into english as well. You trying to bootstrap people with worldly wisdom to understand the scriptures.

For the most part God hides truth from the scholars of this world Lk 10:21


In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Now dont get me wrong, greek is okay, I studied it in both bible college and a couple of courses of it in working on my Masters, but I learned that its worthless if not guided by the light of truth. And a person taught of God can understand the scriptures without one second of greek.
 
@Doug Brents

Faith is NOT given WITH salvation,

Yes it accompanies Salvation Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
It comes with the Spirits Sanctifying work of Salvation 2 Thess 2:13


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief here in the greek is the word noun πίστις:
faith (239x),

There you go. Regeneration is an aspect of salvation by Grace and it brings Faith/or Belief of the Truth
 
I am back. Had a great week. I was saddened to see the response from @GodsGrace and @Jim it seems like the whole story went over both of your heads. and you still do not see the picture.

The answer to our sin was the death of an animal. God killed the animal to cover Adam and Eve.

He did not keep killing animals to cover them every time they sinned. He just covered them

They did not take this covering off and replace it with their fig leaves again thinking they had to keep trying to cover their nakedness for which the knowledge of sin had left them exposed..

The law showed that for any redemption or atonement to occur. an innocent animal without blemish had to be offered. there was no other means of atonement or forgiveness.

Jesus died once for all time for all sin. so we could be set free. Not so we could go back to the law and try earn our salvation again, if salvation can be lost. Jesus would have to come and die again. For without the shedding of blood. there is no forgiveness.

We do not come to God. God comes to us. He offers us his salvation. we have the ability to receive this free gift. or the opportunity to reject it.

sadly. we have far to many people who have a false repentence. they claim they repented. claim they trusted God. but in reality, they not only have not repented. but you can tell by their words. they have no faith in the promises of God.. their trust continues to be in self..
 
And ? Is that why Paul said the greeks seek for wisdom over the Gospel ? 1 Cor 1 22
LOL, no. That means that the language God used to write the NT Scriptures is very exact and concise. It means that the meaning of the words is important, and the construction of the sentence is important. It means that salvation is the gift, and not faith in the verse in question.
Understanding the Gospel Truths take a spiritual revelation, not knowing greek. God in His wise providence had the scriptures translated into english as well. You trying to bootstrap people with worldly wisdom to understand the scriptures.
Again, LOL. Yes, understanding the Gospel in whatever language takes Spiritual guidance. But that does not mean that the language in which the Scripture was written can be twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean. The Spirit is not going to tell you that homosexuality, or thievery, or bearing false witness are permissible, because those things are expressly forbidden in Scripture. Likewise, the Greek language is clear that salvation is the gift, and faith is the conduit through which God pours His gift of salvation upon us.
 
Yes it accompanies Salvation Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
It comes with the Spirits Sanctifying work of Salvation 2 Thess 2:13


13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief here in the greek is the word noun πίστις:
faith (239x),

There you go. Regeneration is an aspect of salvation by Grace and it brings Faith/or Belief of the Truth
ROTFLMBO! Bright, do you understand English? Read the end of verse 13 again with me.
From the beginning, God has chosen you to be saved. And He chose to save you through the cleansing of the Spirit AND through belief of (faith in) the truth.
It is through faith and the cleansing (sanctification) of the Spirit that we receive salvation.
 
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