civic
Active Member
It’s a relationship issue
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
If you are only here to accuse me then we are rapidly done talking.
I don't use tactics, that's a mean thing to say.
Aha, now my alleged tactic is inspired by the devil.
Your warm and cozy brotherly love is showing.
Okay, I allegedly can't understand God, the judgement list becomes longer and longer.
I don't feel offended, but your post is offending, two different things.
I can not blame them, you don't discuss, you accuse.
Yeah right, Romans 6, what started our discussion.
Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin
And what did you do?
Luke 22:20 - And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
You ignored this text.
That's the new covenant.
Then do what you preach and don't ignore Luke 22:20, notable Jesus own words and most likely the origin for Paul's teaching when he speaks about the Law of Moses.
GodsGrace
Active Member
It's unfortunate that you despise the original church that has allowed you to be on this very forum today.
I believe you've missed a verse:
John 13:35
35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
I have some bad news for you RB.
CALVINISM is a cult.
Invented by a men such as John Calvin.
Cults are invented BY MEN.
§The CC, instead, is the original church which was spread by Peter, Paul, and whose faith was taught by all the early theologians....
From which John Calvin and his group,,,departed 1,500 years AFTER Jesus was resurrected....
AFTER the Apostels taught the Christian faith,
and which was taught continuously and up to this very day.
Except, of course, for the Calvinists. of which you are one.
A rose by any other name is still a rose.
YOU teach Calvinism...
a heresy.
And blasphemous also...and I'll show it by scripture for the 100th time.
Of course I can speak for you.
You're on an open forum and I can read what you post.
You post what the reformed/calvinist theology teaches.
Which is NOT mainline Christianity.
Unfortunately, JESUS does not agree with you.
We must learn to adhere to ALL of Jesus' teachings...not just pick out some verses that we like.
HERE is what Jesus taught as to being saved and as to good works, which many seem to abhor:
John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
I understand that this is an uncomfortable teaching,,,
but it IS JESUS who is teaching it.
I would tend to obey Jesus and adhere to HIS teachings...
not those of John Calvin.
Read John 15:1-2 again.
Remember that I'm quoting JESUS,,,
not myself.
NO. RB.
By THE LAW
means
By The Law.
You know...the mosaic Law.
Works of The Law.
Read Romans again, specially chapter 2...it might be helpful.
Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
Let's see what Paul has to say about WORKS...which you seem to believe are an evil.
1. We store up wrath FOR OURSELVES...no talk of God decreeing anything.
2. Paul is speaking about the righteous judgment of God.
3. God will render to each person ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS.
4. Those who persevered, till the end of their life, in doing good....eternal life.
5. Those who did NOT OBEY wrath and indignation.
Not my words...but Paul's.
Selective.
Read about the martyrs that died so you could be on this forum.
They were Catholic.
John Calvin had not been born yet in the first century.
But, yes, let's see who did the most evil.
Great way to understand scripture.
It seem to me that it's YOU who are cutting out scripture you don't care for.
You even cut out what JESUS teaches.
RB....
Calvinism makes a mockery of Christianity and GOD Himself.
It attributes evil to God in whom there is NO DARKNESS...as John the Apostle stated.
It attributes to §God evil, which is by satan's work, thus blaspheming God.
The CC does none of this.
You are blinded by your hated of a denomination that has the RIGHT to teach what it believes....
just as every denomination does.
And, I do hope you understand that Augustine, Calvin's hero,
was CATHOLIC....and a gnostic to boot.
Easy peasy RB .
I'm happy to explain.
Mortal sin is when you are cut off from the vine.
See John 15:1-2 again.
JESUS explains it.
John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
@Dizerner
They are the nation of Israel, and their FALL (or, being cut off) salvation is come to the GENTILES! The natural Olive tree is the nation of Israel to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whom all of the OT father's came from.
The wild Olive tree were the Gentiles nations, this is not that deep, but your wild interpretation : "they are two spiritual systems, one in the tree of Christ, and one in the "wild olive tree," which is the rebellious nature of Adam"..... does not even remotely fit the context of Romans 11, or for that matter any other part of the word of God...which it probably does not matter very much to men like you who recklessly, and wickedly, plays with the scriptures to make them seemly support their own bias agendas.
Seek to understand the following scriptures and you will see they clearly support (though you may never admit it) our position of Romans 11.
Ephesians 2:11-22; Zachariah 4:11-14; Revelation 11:1-12; supports our understanding of Romans 11. Jews and Gentiles that clearly make up the true people of God ~ The two olive trees.....the natural and unnatural branches forming to make one true spiritual temple for God.
"Calvinistic way" ~ is this the best you can come with when someone exposes your corruption of God's word. Folks like you play with the mere sound of words in order to promote your "work gospel" and when you are caught, you try to down plays your corrupt use of the scriptures by saying.... "the classic Calvinistic way around certain scriptures" ~ when the CONTEXT proves otherwise. Paul is addresses Israel as a nation, period ~ and as a nation they have been cut off. You folks see the words "cut off" and run with them to support your false doctrine of literally induvials falling from being born again to being lost again, your "yo-yo" doctrine of salvation from sin and condemnation is not of God but a doctrine of devils. Because once they fell, there was no return for them, they hate the very thought of eternal security for God's elect, secured for them by Christ alone, not by their faithfulness, for if it depended on man, then there would be no security for anyone, not for Perter, Paul, John and certainly not for you or me.
I got you right where I want you by you making a bold statement above that can easily be proven false. The two trees ARE TWO NATIONS if words have any meaning whatsoever, and THEY DO.
Romans 11:11
“I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."They are the nation of Israel, and their FALL (or, being cut off) salvation is come to the GENTILES! The natural Olive tree is the nation of Israel to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whom all of the OT father's came from.
The wild Olive tree were the Gentiles nations, this is not that deep, but your wild interpretation : "they are two spiritual systems, one in the tree of Christ, and one in the "wild olive tree," which is the rebellious nature of Adam"..... does not even remotely fit the context of Romans 11, or for that matter any other part of the word of God...which it probably does not matter very much to men like you who recklessly, and wickedly, plays with the scriptures to make them seemly support their own bias agendas.
Seek to understand the following scriptures and you will see they clearly support (though you may never admit it) our position of Romans 11.
Ephesians 2:11-22; Zachariah 4:11-14; Revelation 11:1-12; supports our understanding of Romans 11. Jews and Gentiles that clearly make up the true people of God ~ The two olive trees.....the natural and unnatural branches forming to make one true spiritual temple for God.
Who would know this better than you and your camp?
Dizerner
Active Member
Wow.
Is that how you exegete Scripture, because if so, I pity you?!
If you think the nation of Israel is the natural olive tree, instead of Christ himself, not only is that grossly idolatrous and man-centered, but it is also self-contradicting and self-refuting.
Salvation is not a corporate entity—and I would think Calvinists, of all people, would understand that you cannot save or damn entire nations at a time, because each nation is made up of individuals with their unique responses to God.
The nation of Israel always had allowed Gentile converts—that's not a new thing, and also why the Jewish synagogues were constantly jealous of Paul's popularity.
I am not grafted into the nation of Israel nor the Old Covenant, I am grafted into Christ himself, the Olive Tree.
And if the ethnicities were the two trees, then what are the branches being cut off? Logically the branches cannot be identical to the trees they are cut off from, and you cannot cut the ethnic nation of Israel off from itself!
Your interpretation is utter nonsense, and can only be motivated by a depraved desire to invalidate the message of possible apostasy in a believer.
You need to earnestly repent.
Last edited:
Agreed.
It's just silly to ignore all the warnings, most notable the one spoken by Jesus Himself as most likely His sayings are the base of the epistle writers.
In the parable of the sower Jesus describes 4 types of people, one non believer and 3 believers, but only type 4 is the good soil.
Makes me wonder to whom all these warnings are addressed :
1. To type 2 and 3 only, thus not to the good soil (=OSAS) believers, they are untouchable.
2. All believers, type 2, 3 and 4.
Dizerner
Active Member
OSAS is definitely a bad soil, but there are Christians who know better, who know OSAS is false, and still chase after sin.
@GodsGrace
I do indeed despise the RCC false cult. And so would Paul if here, and he would not minced his word!
I must run to make a short trip but will come back and finish. RB
The RCC is not the original church, she wants folks to believe she is, but her doctrine shows otherwise. Besides, the EOC, (Eastern Orthodox Church) believes they were before the "ROMAN" Catholic Church, and the EOC may very well have a point (that they were before RCC) since they started there right where the apostles lived and work from...we were not there to see with our own eyes how every details unfolded, so who cares which of those two were first, both of them are full of doctrines of devils, which only proves to me, just how fast the wolves enter in as soon as the apostles died off! And wolves they are dress as sheep.
Acts 20:29
“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”I do indeed despise the RCC false cult. And so would Paul if here, and he would not minced his word!
Galatians 5:12
“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”In what way has the RCC allow us to be here today? Please tell me. If she could she would eliminate every single child of God who holds on to the scriptures and expose her for who she truly is! Antichrist...against the teachings of the word of God in SO MANY areas.
I labor to live by charity, and true charity speaks out against the man of sin regardless where and who that may be. I love all men, even you Fran, I have not one thing against you, yet, I will speak out against corruption of God's word and those living in sin especially so those who profess to believe and are doing so.
No bad news for me Fran, for I know that you are terribly misinformed. Unconditional salvation was not invented by men like John Calvin, but taught all through the word of God. You have been duped by RCC in more ways that you think, even though you said you came out of her back a few years ago. Martin Luther and John Calvin did indeed come out of the whore from Rome and sad to say, brought (much like you ) some of her false doctrine with them, even though I'm not worthy to bear a cup for either of them, because they had so much more right than wrong, more so in practical everyday living from what I have read from each of them personally, this is my observation of each of them.
Fran, the CC is a false cult from the very outset. I have read the The Nicene Creed, formulated in 325 AD which is the earliest taht I know of, unless you know of one earlier. It is loaded with errors and I could easily prove it. There were men that refuted it when if came out, those were the true believer of that day, and then there was a very dark age where the heretics from Rome ruled with many saints being put to death. The invention of the printing press set many free from the whore and thus the reformation was to place when once teh word of God got into the hands of the plowboy etc.! You said: "From which John Calvin and his group,,,departed 1,500 years AFTER Jesus was resurrected.." You got your history backward! Tell me about those years for 450 A.D. to 1450 A.D. Better yet, read Fox's book of Martyrs, about just how wicked the RCC was. That God for the printing press!
I'm what would be considered a high Calvinist and make no apologies for it. A high Calvinist, but not of the Reformed community of believers ~ I'm what would be called a Particular Baptist, much different than Reformed Calvinism. At least tag me correctly.
Fran back in the mid 1500 up until the mid 1800's it WAS considered mainline Christianity, especially so in America and in England. I know very well I have done a lot of reading in the last fifty plus years.
I must run to make a short trip but will come back and finish. RB
Yes,, we will never be unadopted by God. But an adopted child, just like a natural child, can cut himself off completely from his adoptive parents. So also the child of God can separate himself from God.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Which denomination was around in the year 100AD?
And which denomination kept the wolves out of the church?
Actually, Paul said that IN LATER TIMES...
a false gospel would be preached:
Galatians 1:8
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
1 Timothy 2:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Study up on some church history and find out.
Do you thing THE REFORMED have saved the church from heretical beliefs?
Yes. RB. You sure do show your love for other members...
by insulting them ad nauseum.
Do you just TELL your wife you love her...
or do you SHOW it??
God's word is not corrupted IN ANY denomination more than in the reformed/calvinist denominations.
Post some verses RB.
Jesus taught works and Paul taught works.
Nowhere in scripture do we find FAITH ONLY.
Except in James 2:24 where he states that WE ARE NOT saved by FAITH ONLY!
And YOU my friend, have been more than duped.
You are following a FALSE GOSPEL.
At least the CC teaches the true gospel.
Salvation by Jesus to WHOMEVER wants to be saved.
Of course there's an earlier creed.
Did you not know?
Try 1 Corinthians 15:3-8
Oh for goodness sake!
The printing press.
Do you understand what THE EARLY CHURCH means?
Same difference.
High Clavinist.
Calvinist.
Particular Baptist.
Same difference.
They all teach a different gospel.
Not the gospel either Jesus or Paul or any of the NT writers taught.
TULIP is not biblical...it is not found in the NT.
This is so funny, I'm not even responding to it.
This would mean that Chritianity BEGAN in the 1500's.
You're always running off.
No problem.
As long as you take your hatred of other Christian denominations, except your own, with you.
That is great Red. I can only hope you will stop promoting to me, your adopted religion. But I am always open to honest examination and discussion about what is Actually written in Scriptures.
You are welcome to your opinions. It's the lie you promote that I don't address your posts, or the Scriptures you posted that caused my reply, when it is clear that I did. You may not agree with my understanding of them. But to say that I didn't address them is just flat out false.
Truly you are zealous and sincere for your version of Calvinism, and you are free to promote it. But I am more interested in what the Scriptures actually teach. Please do move on Red.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Which denomination was the original church D?
Assembly of §God
Church of §C hrist
Later Day Saints
Nazarene
Episcopalian
Baptist
Evangelical
Anglican
etc.
However, it's understood that the first Christian church is considered to have been in Jerusalem. Ignatius's letters, which are believed to have been written in the early 2nd century, describe the "Catholic Church" as a universal and unified entity, rather than a specific physical structure.
source: Google AI...(no time for additional sources.)
This information is available to all.
GodsGrace
Active Member
@Red Baker is rather insulting to everyone who does not agree with him and his gnostic theology.
Maybe we should wear it as a badge of honor!!
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
see what?
He was speaking to gentile believers as a group. and discussing the jewish nation as a group
He was telling the gentile church not to boast for if God did not spare the jews. he will not spare them.
he finished with a bold prophecy and warning, that God is NOT done with Israel (the topic of Rom 9 - 11) in fact. there will be a time when the whole nation repents and they will all be saved..
Or make legalism look appealing
Unbelief is the unpardonable sin, He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned ALREADY.
Yes he did. And eternal security and faith in God does not change the words.
But your self righteous legalistic self preserving gospel does.
Actually no it does not.
The apostle john answered that question.
here I will let John tell you himself
1. He who denys christ is a liar
2. He is an antichrist
1 john 2: 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
3. He does not have the father or the son - He is not saved)
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
5. They do not Know (experiential knowledge) the truth, like those who know the father do.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
6. They were coming to the churches in Johns day, and these people he wrote to knew it
8 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
7 they departed. now denying christ
8. They were never of us (they were never saved)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
see here is what seperates us, and if you would open you mind and stop your mission of defeating calvinism at all costs. you might see the truth.
1, You believe Jesus made a mistake. saved them KNOWING they would walk awa
2. I believe God knew their heart. knew they did not really have saving faith. and knowing they would walk away. so in his infinite knowledge, never saved them in the first place.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yeah it is
when are you going to start reading them?
I do not know many churches who do not respect God.. But sadly I know many who disrespect God by adding religion and self righteousness into the gospel of christ..
Well I am not Calvinist. If you and your peeps would stop trying to attack a group of people and realize that most people you talk to are not Calvinist. and start listening to them, You may start to see some truth revealed to you.
Until then, your and everyone else like you will be blinded by your hatred and war against a group of people who have no power over you. Its quite telling
Yes. He placed doubt in Eve's mind that God is not a God who has the truth. Saying God is trying to deceive you.. He can not be trusted.
So why are you doing the very thing Satan did to Eve? causing mistrust and fear among those seeking God?
No. Wrong understanding of what really happened
simplicity in christ.
Why do you take the simplicity in christ. and destroy it with all your rules and regulations and good deeds and boasting?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
for the umpteenth time
grace is not free.
the son of God paid for it on the cross.
one day I pray you realise this, and stop mocking the cross
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
amen
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
God wants to be our daddy (Abba)
the legalists hate this..
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yet God said that is impossible
whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God
again, get off your calvinist hate. and start to read the word. It will open up alot to you
Similar threads
