Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yes
if we state our sins. not only to God. but each other
but not to stay saved.. that would be like going back under law..
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if we state our sins. not only to God. but each other
but not to stay saved.. that would be like going back under law..
mailmandan
Active Member
Oxymoron. If receiving water baptism stands between us and salvation then we would be saved by baptism. You can't have it both ways. We are saved by faith. (Ephesians 2:8) Faith in Jesus Christ (implied in repentance) brings the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:38-39; 15:7-9; 16:31: 26:18) Perfect Harmony.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
what happens if you walk away for a bit. because the church upset you. or because some other reason.
are you still secure in christ. or should you fear?
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
calvinists do not believe that all humankind will be saved.
so by your own definition of universalism, they are not universalists
romans 1 would be your best argument.
no one has an excuse. even those who never heard the name Jesus, Because they Know of God.. they hide him in their hearts and make up their own Gods
I believe that if anyone would come to christ in any means, god would work miracles and get that person the gospel. in fact. i have listened to missionaries that state this very thing
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
@Doug Brents
Doug that's not how the salvation of Lord works.
Salvation is a free gift, given on the behalf of Christ's redemption work for his people. God freely imparts salvation to us by grace alone, and THEN we work as a token of our love to him for what he did for us, when we have no strength to do any spiritual acts pleasing to him.
I have a few minutes while waiting on a meeting with someone.
Doug that's not how the salvation of Lord works.
Salvation is a free gift, given on the behalf of Christ's redemption work for his people. God freely imparts salvation to us by grace alone, and THEN we work as a token of our love to him for what he did for us, when we have no strength to do any spiritual acts pleasing to him.
Romans 3:24
“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”Romans 5:6
“For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.”Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yes
and he just poked holes in those who thought they were righteous by following the law
the law says this, but I tell you..
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
they are of value to God. it is how a child of God produces fruit. and leads others to christ.
you can not meet the conditions, because the condition is perfection.
God did nto lower the standard. He came and died so the standard can not condemn you
which is merit
according to the law. yes that was a condition.. Jesus kept the law amen
actually, yes, if you did it to get saved as the jews were trying to impose on the gospel. you tried to merit salvation..
you are tryign to add to the word. romans 9 - 11 is all about the Israel situation. did God make a mistake..
Yes he does.
He will prove that when Israel is restored after they cry out to God.
and he will prove it by not losing one of his children..
then your trusting self not God
You are the one who is trying to keep yourself saved.
Doug Brents
Active Member
We are saved by faith (Rom 1:17)
We are saved by baptism (1 Pet 3:21)
We are saved by the blood of Christ (Eph 1:7)
We are saved by grace (Eph 2:8-9)
We are saved by confessing Jesus (Rom 10:9-10)
We are saved by standing firm to the end (Matt 10:22)
We are saved by repentance (Acts 3:19)
We are saved by loving God and loving our neighbor (Luke 10:25-28)
We are saved by the love of God (John 3:16)
And I am sure there are other things that Scripture says that I am missing.
Your "perfect harmony" assumes you are perfect in your thinking and that there is no other way of seeing it other than your way of seeing it. But Scripture shows salvation from many viewpoints, and all of them MUST AGREE. You, however, choose to only see it from one perspective, and think that every other perspective is wrong.
Doug Brents
Active Member
See post 1789 above. We are NOT saved by grace ALONE. There is no place in all of Scripture where "grace alone", or even the concept, is found. The closest is "faith alone", and that is stated in the negative (NOT by faith alone (James 2:24)).
@synery
Jesus upbraideth Nicodemus in John 3 for NOT understanding the new birth being necessary before one could see, and understand spiritual truths; to believe this is not so, is to go against clear words spoken in this discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus.
Understanding the nature of flesh as taught in all of the scriptures, it is impossible for one not to believe that being born again is not an OT teaching, unless one purposely closes their eyes to what is taught, or, God has not open their understanding to one of the cardinal truths of the scriptures.
If the doctrine of the new birth/born again is not an OT doctrine, then pray to tell me why is it a NT doctrine, if one can have faith, do many spiritual acts pleasing to God as we read about in Hebrews 11 concerning many OT saints?
later, I may say more.
I'll be back soon to look at John 3:5-7.
That's wishful thinking on your part. First, I have not tried multiple times, but have done so once or maybe twice, yet I do not remember one person taking the scriptures and proving me wrong, certainly not you. But, I welcome you to post any scriptures you think you can prove that no one was born again prior to John 3:1-8, how foolish to even think this is possible, is beyond me, and should be to any student of the scriptures.
Jesus upbraideth Nicodemus in John 3 for NOT understanding the new birth being necessary before one could see, and understand spiritual truths; to believe this is not so, is to go against clear words spoken in this discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus.
Understanding the nature of flesh as taught in all of the scriptures, it is impossible for one not to believe that being born again is not an OT teaching, unless one purposely closes their eyes to what is taught, or, God has not open their understanding to one of the cardinal truths of the scriptures.
If the doctrine of the new birth/born again is not an OT doctrine, then pray to tell me why is it a NT doctrine, if one can have faith, do many spiritual acts pleasing to God as we read about in Hebrews 11 concerning many OT saints?
later, I may say more.
I'm a Christian that believes in the salvation that Christ secured for his people, and given to us freely by God's grace. Call me what you will, if you think it helps your cause in what you believe, but, I can assure you that does it
I'll be back soon to look at John 3:5-7.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You are talking about works that flow out from salvation. But those are not the works that are required to bring one to the point of salvation in the first place.
I can, and have, met the condition of perfection, because Jesus has given me His perfection in exchange for my filthy rags. This happened at the instant that I was baptized in His name when I was 14.
smh
Jesus did keep the Law perfectly. And then He set conditions upon our reception of His perfection.
No, it is about the Church. Yes, it references how God related to ethnic Israel before Christ, but in Christ ethnic Israel doesn't matter. What matters is if you are in Christ or not in Christ.
Israel is "restored" every time someone comes to Christ. As Rom 11:25-27 says, all Israel will not be saved until the all the Gentiles that are going to be saved are part of Israel. All the Jews who are not going to be saved are cut off already, and are no longer part of Israel (Rom 11:17, 20).
So trusting in God to fulfill His promises is trusting in self? You must think I am God. But I am not God. I trust in Him, not myself. He sustains me and gives me strength; my strength does not come from myself.
@JLB
I agree, even the Ten Commandments as far as them have any power to condemn us, we are dead to the law in THIS SENSE through the body of Jesus Christ. They still are laws that we as believers in our new man delight in, since there are no laws more spiritual, holy and good than God's law, while delighting in them, we see just how corrupt we are. We see, how impossible it is for us to live up to the spirituality of them even for one second, and even in our most holy acts of worship we see sin is THERE. This makes us look totally to Christ for our salvation and the gift of eternal life.
First, it should be pointed out that in the passage, Romans 3:21-5:21, Paul is establishing the all-sufficiency of grace as the way of salvation. In the last part of that, Romans 5:12-21, Paul is establishing the all-sufficiency of the death of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 begins with the word "therefore". Paul has just written the first eleven verses of chapter 5 making the case for the assurance of personal salvation. In beginning verse 12 with the word "therefore" he is about to show us how the death of Christ does indeed provide to each and every person the hope and confidence in one saving act (the death on the cross) of one man (Jesus Christ). The question that naturally arises is "How could what one man did at one time in all the history of mankind have such an absolute effect on mankind?"
In order to show that is not some far-fetched cockamamie idea, Paul begins by calling attention to the one man whose one act set the stage for the need for salvation of every person. Paul does that in verse 12: Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--
Adam was the first human being. He was created by God. He was perfect. And yet, when confronted with the choice of doing what God said and doing what "the woman", i.e., Eve, wanted, Adam chose to disobey God and do what the woman wanted. In disobeying God, Adam sinned. In that one act of disobedience, the very first sin committed by a human being, sin entered God's creation. We could discuss why God is presenting Adam, not Eve, as the one person who introduced sin into God's creation, but I will leave that for another time.
Paul said sin came into the world. Here as I have indicated, "the world" here is this physical creation, the universe, the world of mankind. Sin had already entered the world of angels through the sin of Satan (1 John 3:8). Now God is telling us that sin entered the world of mankind through the one man, Adam. In that instance, Adam became dead in that sin. Adam spiritually died, just as God had said he would (Gen 3:3). The death being discussed in this final section, Romans 5:12-21, is all about spiritual death. It is the reason for the need for salvation.
But the real point of verse 12 is not that Adam sinned and died spiritually. The point is that while sin was introduced into the world of mankind and spiritual death through that sin, more importantly, death spread to all men. The question then becomes why spiritual death came to all men. The answer is made absolutely clear. Death came to all men because all men sinned.
There is of course an entire field of study as to why this is, that is, why all men sin. But the point here in verse 12 is that it is stated as fact. All men sin and because of that all men die spiritually. Adam started it and every man since has followed his example.
synergy
Active Member
For that to be true then calvinism fails in one of 2 ways. They either do not believe 1) the Bible where it says that it's God's will that all are saved or they do not believe that 2) man is unconditionally elected for salvation. #2 is a pillar of calvinism so it's #1 where calvinists falter. Conclusion: They do not believe the Bible.
But since they vehemently state that they do believe all of the Bible then I have no other recourse than to call them universalists. It's one or the other, they can't be both Bible believers and non-Universalists at the same time. That's my point.
In the Final Judgment, where all will be judged, all will be judged according to their works (whether good or evil). Whether they believed or not I would assume has bearing in that judgment but the fact still remains that Revelation puts the accent on works as to whether or not they will be saved.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The law of Christ are certainly laws that are written on our heart.
The law of Moses was far more that just the 10 Commandments.
There were 613 laws and commandments in the law of Moses.
His commandments are what we who are in Christ are to obey.
The law of Moses was temporary whereas His commandments are eternal.
We don’t serve the order of the Levitical priesthood.
We are of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
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"Psychological Projection" is a condition often unconsciously practiced, as a defense mechanism. It is the practice of attributing ones own unsavory and unacceptable urges or practices onto others, as a form of self defense, or to, as it is often called, "save face" when their own words or actions are being challenged or questioned. We can see this condition displayed by the mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, many of which who, like Saul, were zealous and sincere in their beliefs, but nevertheless were promoting falsehoods about Gods Word according to the Holy Scriptures.
There is treatment for this condition, but first a person needs to recognize the problem.
Red, me and others on this forum are questioning your preaching, compared to what is actually written in Scriptures, when more that a few verses are considered. It doesn't matter how sincere a preacher is. No one is questioning your sincerity. The very definition of "Deceived" is to sincerely believe something that isn't true.
What is being questioned, certainly by me, is your preaching. And I am instructed by the Spirit of the Christ, of the Bible, to do so.
I know all about your religious philosophy Red. I know you sincerely believe that God's instruction in righteousness was not written for your sake no doubt, or for your admonition, and that they were only written for men born with a certain DNA, and born in a certain time, until the Christ should come, and then God's instruction in righteousness are abolished, unless the religious men in the society God placed you in, Judges the Instruction as worthy of men's respect.
But when a man actually reads what Jesus and Paul teach, that is, not just one verse here, and another there, but ALL of their teaching, it is clear that you are mistaken, if the Word of God is to be our guide. The Levitical Priesthood, added 430 years after God said "that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws", was to lead men to Christ, just as it did for Zacharias, Simeon and Anna.
"though shall not Kill, or "thou shall not drink blood" were not Laws "ADDED" 430 years after Abraham, to lead men to their Savior. They needed a Savior because they broke these Laws. The Levitical Priesthood was a temporary priesthood created to lead them to the True Priest of God that was to come. When HE came, the Priesthood, with it's temporary sacrificial "works of the law" for atonement vanished.
I'm sorry you are so offended at the prospect or suggestion that you might be in error. Certainly the Mainstream preachers of Jesus Time, and Jeremiah's Time, and Paul's Time were also offended when God's Word pointed out their error. So it isn't a new thing that men get offended when shown God's Word.
It's part of their fruits.
Again, how can you preach such foolishness with a straight face? Who killed Jesus, God's High Priest, who Moses said would come, and who Moses said to "hearken unto"?? Who stoned Stephen, for simply pointing out the Law and Prophets to them? Who sold goats and turtle Doves in the Temple years after they Killed Jesus? Who slandered Paul, who were trying to deceive the church of God in Rom. 3?
This is just another in a long line of falsehoods that you have adopted from this world's religious system and are "sincerely" preaching them to others. The Pharisees "Killed" Jesus to protect and preserve "their version of the OT Priesthood."
They argued with Paul, "to protect and preserve "their version of the OT Priesthood."
They killed Stephen, "to protect and preserve "their version of the OT Priesthood."
You have been deceived in many things, but one of the most insidious falsehoods you have adopted, is that the Pharisees were trying to protect and preserve "the Law and Moses."
They "Said" they promoted God's Laws given through Moses, but they didn't. If they had believed the Law of Moses, they would have known and harkened to Jesus, because God Commanded them, through Moses and the Prophets that Jesus would come, and that they were to hearken to Him.
But in contrast, Zacharias and Elizabeth obeyed the Laws of God given through Moses. Simeon obeyed the "Law of Moses", Anna obeyed the Law of Moses, and therefore they knew what the Levitical Priesthood foreshadowed. And they were waiting for His Prophesied arrival. And they believed in this same Christ before HE was even born. Yu can read this for yourself in Luke 1&2, and if you are "sincerely" interested, it seems that you would.
But you don't even know this basic, milk of the Word of God Truths, and yet are you here preaching down to me and others?
Yes, the Priesthood changed, as it is prophesied to change. Which means the manner in which we received God's Laws has changed. And the manner in which forgiveness of transgression of God's Laws has changed, as Prophesied. But there is not even ONE place in the Entire Bible where God Laws, Statutes, Judgments and Commandments were prophesied to be abolished. Jesus taught the exact opposite.
I can show you His Words if you want.
Who is the "US" here?
This is what the Spirit of Christ Inspired both Moses and John to write.
Ex. 19: 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Rev. 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and (Keep) the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Like Paul said, "Wherefore, let him that THINKETH he standeth, TAKE HEED lest he fall.
Certainly your adopted religious philosophy is seductive. No repentance, no submission to God, no "Turning to God", no "Yielding oneself" to God, no "putting on" a New Man, no "putting on" the Armor of God. No Nothing. God throws all the names of every man ever created by Him into a hat, and HE draws out the names of men HE allows into His Mansion based on "nothing". And He draws out the names of those who Jesus doesn't know, based on "Nothing", And isn't is amazing that the only way we know if we hit the holy lottery, is if we adopt Calvinism.
As if John said, "And hereby we do know that we know him, "if we" adopt Calvinism.
He that saith, I know him, and doesn't walk in Calvinist religious philosophy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Sincere or not Red, this religion you promote, where God's Law created a division based on the DNA men were born with, are beggarly elements no different that Pagan rituals, and a Yoke of bondage God placed on the necks of men who Loved Him and Trusted Him, might be popular with the prince of this world. But this philosophy didn't come from Paul, the Jesus "of the bible, or His Father, the God and Father of all. At least if the Holy Scriptures are our guide?
synergy
Active Member
It's fascinating that in the time and the effort you took to write the above, you could have given us several OT passages that made your case. That says alot right there.
You are mistaken if you think that freedom allows you to turn a blind eye to verses where Jesus mentioned the necessity of water (and Spirit obviously) and later, in the very same chapter, John's Baptism ministry and the Baptism of Jesus is mentioned. No coincidence there. Everything aligns perfectly together to shoot down any calvinist presupposition.
mailmandan
Active Member
Amen! (Ephesians 2:8)
Read the read of the verse and don't just cherry pick and stop there -- not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by and signified in the outward ceremony of water baptism).
That is included in the actual means of our salvation which is not on our part.
God's part and not ours.
Confession is a confirmation of faith (that Jesus is our Lord and Savior) and not a work for salvation (Romans 10:8) which is why we will be saved IF we confess.
Descriptive of genuine believers. Those who stand firm to the end confirm their faith and conversion. God preserves His saints. (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1)
Repentance is a change of mind (which precedes faith) and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21)
This is law, not grace. What is written in the LAW, Jesus asked. Jesus showed the rich young ruler how short he falls of keeping even the first commandment which is the first of the two great commandments. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37) The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms, yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing/trusting/relying in Jesus for salvation. (John 3:16-18)
If it was not for God's love He never would have gave us His only begotten Son to provide for us eternal life. God's part.
I'm sure you could "add" more works to your false gospel of salvation by faith + works but that is enough to expose your error.
You just don't get it.
I properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. You choose to distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your false gospel plan which culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.
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