Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[MTMattie]

yikes a misguided soul since calvin himself believed in a literal hell and punishment for the wicked.

Well, he never talked of Calvin, but he was a Presby so he was taught Calvin at some point. But also told me not to just read the bible without at least Strongs or any other guide for explanation because I could not read and understand. I bel;ieve he thought only Satan would be in hell... if he even believed in it. He never said but did say the likes of Hitler and even Charley Manson
would be up there....

The stories of his beliefs would turn all of us gray. too. As well as lifestyle...

Tis a shame.....

 

[civic]

Well, he never talked of Calvin, but he was a Presby so he was taught Calvin at some point. But also told me not to just read the bible without at least Strongs or any other guide for explanation because I could not read and understand. I bel;ieve he thought only Satan would be in hell... if he even believed in it. He never said but did say the likes of Hitler and even Charley Manson
would be up there....

The stories of his beliefs would turn all of us gray. too. As well as lifestyle...

Tis a shame.....

wow

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

YOU LIE!!! I didn't say that receiving water baptism stands between us and salvation. I said:

If you don't believe me, then read:

Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

What God choses to do beyond what He has promised is entirely up to God. If He chooses to save any who refuse to be baptized, that is His choice. But nowhere in the NT does God ever say that He will save anyone who is not baptized.

you just said it again,

why are you denying it?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I did not say baptism is required. Can you not read and comprehend a simple sentence? Apparently not.

You stated that forgiveness of sin is done at water baptism.

if it is done when one is baptised

then it is required.

why are you not backing up what you are saying?

if water baptism is required for forgivness

and salvation is based on us being forgiven

then by defenition., water baptism is required

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Side comment.

I had a Calvinist boss... At least the church he attended was Calvin preaching though he more likely was just a predestined soul.

He firmly believed all are saved

He also said those who are born again are saved, and those who are not will be. No matter what.

And he went to great explanation to explain this to me because he knew I was worried... ( early 20s) and wanted to assure me I had no need to be.

he would be the first Calvinist in a many I have spoken to in all my years who believe this,

so although he may have went to a calvinist church. he did not follow their teaching

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

All you have to do is look at my posts against them to initiate your projections. Projection is a personal phenomenon after all.

when one states a group of people are universalists.

and someone calls him out for making that claim,

its not a personal projection

You want another name for it, fine. Salvation for all sounds good.

They do not believe this. They believe in hell. and they believe that whover is not elect will go there for all eternity.

You should not try to appose a group when you do not even understand what they believe

For them to say that they believe the Bible when it says that God wills that all be saved means that they believe in salvation for all.

They do not say this, they say all means the elect.

If you actually spoke to any of them, you would know this

If they don't then they should be honest and say that they do not believe the Bible.

they believe that all means the elect.

you and I believe all means all

again, if your not going to try to understand what they believe, you should stop.

and when someone gently tries to who you your error. you should take what they say with humility and not keep trying to make it sound like your right.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

wow

I second this

 

[MTMattie]

Acts 2: 38-39NASB 1995
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 “For the promise is for you and your children ( but not babies?) and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Has zero to do with whether or not "water baptism stands between us and salvation." (reply 1810) It DOES have to do with receiving the Holy Spirit. Which is necessary for those born again.

But still there is no Baptism needed to receive him if one considers there’s no reason to believe Jesus was only prophesying about the Holy Spirit in John 20:22.

It’s reasonable to assume that having first been followers of John, several of the Lord’s disciples had been baptized. But there’s nothing in the Biblical record indicating that they all were, and even those who were did not receive the Holy Spirit at the time. Neither did a baptism precede either the event in the Upper Room or the Day of Pentecost.

A literal reading of Eph 1:13-14 clearly says the Holy Spirit was sealed within us at the moment of belief. Paul repeated this promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22 and 2 Cor.5:5 without mentioning baptism.

Sorry, I digress again... Ill finish by saying

In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation.

 

[Jim]

How did I lie? Were you not saying that whoever is not water baptized will not be saved or are you saying there are exceptions?

Would you just read what I wrote and stop trying to rewrite it?!?!?!?!?

 

[Jim]

you just said it again,

why are you denying it?

Are you really that dense?

 

[Jim]

You stated that forgiveness of sin is done at water baptism.

if it is done when one is baptised

then it is required.

why are you not backing up what you are saying?

if water baptism is required for forgivness

and salvation is based on us being forgiven

then by defenition., water baptism is required

With that lack of logical reasoning and understanding of the English language, it is no wonder you are confused about much of what the Bible says.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Would you just read what I wrote and stop trying to rewrite it?!?!?!?!?

we have, multiple times

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you really that dense?

lol.. really.. Are you really that arrogant?

do you or do you not believe that sin is forgiven at baptism?

if you do. then i am correct

if you do not. then you need to apologize for saying you do

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

With that lack of logical reasoning and understanding of the English language, it is no wonder you are confused about much of what the Bible says.

this is not an answer.

its amazing i have repeated your words multiple times. and you have nothing to day about your own words but to attack me.

 

[GodsGrace]

no he dopes not

again, 1 verse would suffice.

1. This is written to jews
2. This is a warning not to go back to the law
3. The law you can fall away. they would be returning to sacrifice and burnt offering
The warning is, if you fall away (if it were possible) you could not be resaved,
4. Finally. sayin you can lose salvation puts christ to open shame, it states his dead was not enough. he has to come back and finish what he started.

I agree with your exegesis.

However, it still states that one could fall away.

Yes. we see this today. the churches are emptying out. It seems like every time I drive out in the country I see another church that has closed its doors and boarded up its windows.

this is not saying people will lose salvation. its saying the churches will lose its people because people walk away.. Kids do not stay the churches get so small. they can not afford to keep their building open anymore

Disqualified to teach the gospel.

If a person is disqualified in a race.

it means they are no longer take part of that race.
They are finished...kicked out...banished.

Not to enter heaven

Paul understands on his own, he is already disqualified.

This is to a church. not induviduals.

Is our faith real? Or was it mere belief?

I am still waiting for one that in context proves that eternal life. the seal of the spirit. the promise he will never leave nor forsake us. the promise he will raise us from the dead. the promise we will never hunger or thirst. and the promise we will live forever are lies. are fabrications, are false promises from God.

I have yet to find one And nothing you copied here did anything to change my view. because in context. they do nto say what you claim

Of course you won't change your view.
But I'll be posting on this anyway.

 

[GodsGrace]

then paul is a liar
Jesus is a liar

I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

so again, paul and jesus both reject this faith plus works theology



Because it is reality

if you want to earn your salvation by your works. that is what is required.

otherwise you must be saved by grace through faith


Yes he was. he fullfilled the law. and through it became the lamb of god that took away your sin

we trust him because we are not perfect. knowing he will never leave nor forsake us. because we will never meet his demand. we are forced to continually trust in him

I was save the moment i trusted Jesus. as far as eternity goes

I was never promised a life here on earth that will be free of evil and persecution.

if that's what your looking for..

I have not comment.
I did read the above.

So now I should post all those verses that I did not post before.
This is verse ping pong.

You believe in FAITH ONLY...

This concept does not exist in the NT where we are given different things to do.

For example...we are told to be baptized.

If you do that...then FAITH ALONE is not sufficient.

So is baptism a work??

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree with your exegesis.

However, it still states that one could fall away.

not from salvation..

If a person is disqualified in a race.

it means they are no longer take part of that race.
They are finished...kicked out...banished.

yes

salvation is a gift. your not in a race to get saved.

Of course you won't change your view.
But I'll be posting on this anyway.

same could be said of you..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have not comment.
I did read the above.

So now I should post all those verses that I did not post before.
This is verse ping pong.

You believe in FAITH ONLY...

for salvation yes

but faith is never alone

if you read the verses I posted. that is what it says. ever time, I showed no works included or involved.

This concept does not exist in the NT where we are given different things to do.

for salvation no. salvation has been by grace through faith since noah

For example...we are told to be baptized.

yes. Because you are saved.

not to get saved.

everyone should be baptized. and do everything God commands

If you do that...then FAITH ALONE is not sufficient.

it is sufficient, because the gift of the spirit is based on repentance and faith only.. (actually as paul said, it is by grace only.. not faith only.. But by grace through faith. God does not force it on you as the Calvinist would insist)

So is baptism a work??

yes.

if your saved, you will be rewarded

if you do it to get saved, it is a self righteous works in order to gain something for yourself. not serve god or others

 

[Studyman]

You need help sir. Your derogatory slurs are extremely rude and obnoxious.

What else could I possibly infer, given your refusal to even acknowledge or engage in my first kind, and heart felt answer to your question showing you exactly, in detail what I believe and why. Your question was a set up. You know it was and I know it was. If you were really interested in understanding what I believe, you would address my reply where I explained to you what I believe. But you didn't. Instead you accuse me of "Spiritualizing God's Word to suit my own narrative". And why? Because I don't believe God was instructing "me" or anyone else, to go around murdering people. Just as I don't believe I need to search throughout Jerusalem to find some remnant or Christ's Flesh to eat, or Christ's Blood to drink before I can live?

You somehow believe that God commanded "ME" to murder people for breaking God's Sabbaths. While it is true that I was "dead in trespasses and Sins" in times pass, for transgressing God's commandments, tell me, who killed me? Didn't Paul say the "Commandment came, and he died"? Who brought the Commandment to Paul? The Pope, Gamaliel?? Or was it Moses, Joshua, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Jesus, Paul, James? Aren't these people the "Congregation of the Lord"?

Sadly, you will probably continue to not be interested in understanding what I believe, and will not engage or answer my questions here. And that's not my fault, it comes from within your heart, not mine.

Where did God instruct you or me to put folks to death? Didn't God tell you and me, "thou shall not Kill"? Jesus obeyed God's Laws perfectly, surely even you must believe this. Did Jesus go around stoning people to death for transgressing God's commandments by their own religious traditions?? And yet they too, were dead in Trespasses and Sins!

Who killed them?

But you are not interested in understanding what I believe, or why? If you were, we could have a discussion about these things. Instead, your question was for the purpose of tricking me, to trip me up. It was no different than the mainstream preachers of Jesus time and their questions for HIM. They were not interested in trying to "understand what HE believed", they had already condemned Him in their heart, and were playing "Gotcha games with Him. And if you were to be honest with yourself, you would know, as I do, that you are doing the same thing.

I have only asked you a simple question to try and understand what you believe.

You go ahead and tell yourself and others that if you want. But by your "Works" I know it is not true.

Great. So does everyone else.

Do you believe picking up sticks to kindle a fire is punishable by death under the New Covenant?

You tell me where you found the Flesh of Jesus to eat, and the Blood of Jesus to Drink, since you promote that you are "Saved" by the Blood of Jesus. When you show me where you found His Flesh and His Blood, and how you ate and drank them, I will show you my beliefs concerning waiting until the "Last Day" to prepare for the "Last Day".

 

[mailmandan]

Would you just read what I wrote and stop trying to rewrite it?!?!?!?!?

I quoted what you wrote and did not rewrite it. Here is more of what you said.

What God choses to do beyond what He has promised is entirely up to God. If He chooses to save any who refuse to be baptized, that is His choice. But nowhere in the NT does God ever say that He will save anyone who is not baptized.

What you said additionally about God choosing to go beyond what He promised and save any who refuse to be baptized but the NT nowhere says He will sounds like double speak. Why would a genuine believer refuse to be baptized? Either you believe that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation or else you don't.