Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

If they truly believed they would never fall away. We both know where we are coming from. We are just on different sides of the fence.

we do not lose faith in people unless they fail us

imagine a God that is so untrustworthy people who have trusted and received his gift of life. and all he gives those who ask.. being called untrustworthy enough people just give him the finger and walk away

I also believe John spoke on these antichrists, and how they were never of us.

 

[civic]

1. You deny church history has importance, then you want to claim it.

2. You deny 100% proof right in your face of ECF quotes that directly show PSA.


You're just not acting rational at this point, it's impossible to deal with a crazy person.

I'm going to have to ignore.

nothing penal in the ECF's

 

[civic]

Yes. but there is more than one faith in the world..

not more than one faith that saves.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes because, by cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can ‘make” sure their calling and election.

Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:10-11

Here is the key: for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Stumble = turn away from Christ

You read these verses like the key is, if you do these things, you will maintain your salvation by works and not lose your salvation, but that is not what Peter is talking about. Prior to Jesus being arrested, in Matthew 26:31, Jesus told His disciples that they would stumble or fall away (did they turn away from Christ permanently?) because of Him that night.

In Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, (remaining 11 disciples) But the wicked shall fall by calamity. In James 3:2, we read - For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is mature, able also to control the whole body.

 

[synergy]

A passive dead faith is a bare profession of faith (James 2:14) in contrast with faith that is made alive in Christ and created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You're mistaken if you think James is promoting salvation by works here.

Nobody here is a Sola Works advocate, least of all me. It is by both faith and good works that we are justified before God. (James 2:24).

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

What's this "merit" strawman you're always talking about? Good works are preordained by God so where is there any room for merit seeking or even boasting?

Again, Paul is against works of the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago.

Again, we are justified by God by faith and good works.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I want you to know that no one speaking by the [power and influence of the] Spirit of God can say, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is [my] Lord,” except by [the power and influence of] the Holy Spirit. (AMP) This is not talking about speaking in tongues only. Calling repent, believe, and confess actions verbs still does not equate to salvation by works.

Your actions and efforts are not your work? Anyways, acknowledging that repent, believe, and confess are actions verbs does equate to salvation by faith and actions.

When we repent, we "change our mind" and the new direction of that change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21) Believing unto righteousness is trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6) Confession is an expression of faith and a confirmation that Jesus is our Lord (Romans 10:8-10) and is not a work for salvation.

Believing unto righteousness is still an action done by you. That shows that salvation is synergistic.

You are all about salvation by actions on your part/works. Are you seeking for credit? Where does the death, burial and resurrection of Christ fit into your gospel plan? It sounds to me like it's all about YOU.

Nope. I am not a Sola Works person. Neither am I for monergism. I believe what the Bible says.

It sounds like to me it's all about YOUR presuppositions that override the Bible.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You just blatantly contradicted James 2:24. Well done.

(Jas 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You just plainly contradicted paul and cause James and paul to be at odds,. apposed to each other

Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

16: Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Eph 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You have to resolve the contradiction. I have

You want to boast of your works. feel free. Count me out

The Faith comes from God.
The Faith with your good works makes your Faith alive.
The Faith with none of your good works makes your faith dead.

faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen.

Hope is eternal life. which God, who can not lie, promised before time began

Faith is confidence and assurance.

If you trust God. you will work. (true saving faith)

If you do not. you will not (dead faith or non existent faith. or mere belief, but not faith)

again, you have licentious people with a dead faith saved.

good luck with this

also. your sounding awful Calvinistic claiming God gives you faith and whether you trust God or not. your saved..

Now you're branching off into Grace. That's a whole different story.

Grace is salvation

we are saved by grace through faith

its not a different story.. we are talking about salvation.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Said no Scripture ever.

2 John

I'm trying to get people on the "Scripture" side.

are you? While you deny alot of scripture?

how about lets get people on Gods side..

 

[civic]

1. You deny church history has importance, then you want to claim it.

2. You deny 100% proof right in your face of ECF quotes that directly show PSA.


You're just not acting rational at this point, it's impossible to deal with a crazy person.

I'm going to have to ignore.

Time to fact check you. Looks like AI called you out. oops

While Charles Hodge (1797-1878) is often credited with formulating the penal substitution theory of atonement in a more systematic and detailed way, the concept itself has roots in earlier theological traditions. Hodge's work built upon the ideas of theologians like John Calvin and even earlier figures like Martin Luther.

conclusion: I'm right once again.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This Scripture alone destroys the whole idea that any requirement in our life is meriting our salvation.

It's in there for a reason, yet it just gets glossed over.

if your doing a requirement to keep salvation.

your meriting salvation.

liberals do this kind of thinking of talking themselves out of seeing the truth.. I hope you are not one of them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

conclusion: I'm right once again.

hope this helps !!!

love it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

there is faith there is a God
there is faith in religion
there is faith in works
there is faith in self


Please post the scripture that uses these phrases.

look at reality

why did the jews crucify christ. because they had faith in God?

do you nost trust your parents or your spouse?

faith is a word. we do it all the time in many people

there is one faith that saves.

but there are many faiths.

 

[JLB]

Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief.

Disobedience is unbelief.

We can certainly be in covenant with the LORD and then disobey him.

Sin = disobedience.

We all sin, but we must confess our sin to be forgiven.

If we don’t confess our sin because we refuse to turn away from it then we can indeed become lost.

This is what the teaching about His sheep who became lost is all about.


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

• if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector

 

[Begotten]

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

I like it. We are not on "Probation" we are set free and no longer a slave to Sin and Death. We don't need to wear a ankle monitor. God will order our steps,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

EG....
Go back and read what you wrote.
It's in black and white.

"there will be many a people who thought their were holy because of all their good works. who will be told this same thing"

I stand by that statement.

I pray you are not one of those people

Right.
You do them because you ARE saved....

More than that, I do them because I trusted God to save my from what i deserved (death and hell) and since I trusted him with my eternity. I trust him with every day things in my life.. In fact. I am still learning to trust him in areas.

I NEVER said works are done to become saved.

so you cannot lose salvation if you do not work?

Here's what I've always stated:

HOW to get to heaven:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.

There you go

Number 2 is works.. Your obeying (working) to get saved.

your trying to merit salvation by your works.

it gets no more clearer than this

If we OBEY God,,,we are doing good works!

if your doing them to get saved, your doing them to merit salvation.

Jesus taught this...not me.

Jesus did not teach you this. Maybe the roman catholic church did? But jesus did not

Do I need to post verses again??

again, post all you want. And I will post the verses that counter them

You're speaking about Before salvation,,,,,right?

I am talking before during and after

I am saved by grace through faith not works.

God did not give me a downpayment, He did not barter with me, He saved me, he rescued me from the wage of my sin.

Then I agree with you 100%.

No amount of good works will save you.

yet you say you must work to be saved (obey)

come on sis.

God expects Nothing from unbelievers.

It's Believers from whom God expects to be obeyed.

You do believe this is correct, right?

Yes. But not to stay saved.

that would put us under law not under grace.

OK.
So we Are to bear fruit...to do good works....
Agreed.

yes. and if we do not. we will be lifted up. pruned. and God will cut parts of us off that do not bear fruit and burn them in the fire.

So let's just say that and be clear about it.

I have never denied it. I have always said it, although I keep being accused of denying it

Right. Jesus said this.
To get to heaven, we Must obey Jesus.

The gospel message.. Trust him

not works.

Grace through faith. not of ourselves. salvation is a gift. A gift cannot be earned, Jesus paid for the gift with his blood..

If you need more scripture....tomorrow.
Past midnight here.

I do not need scripture.. But you have much scripture you need to resolve

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"If they had been of us then they would have continued with us" settles it for me. I'm actually not a Calvinist. Why are you so obsessed with losing salvation?

I have found that all false religions and cults that promote salvation by works/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

they appose calvinism.

others just do not like to be told all the hard work they do will not amount to one sin being forgiven.

its why the Jews crucified Christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then why fight against it so much if it's not burdensome!

I am not the one fighting it, you are

resolve the contradictions between these verses and the ones you keep giveing me

until you do that.. you have the issue

Also, Don't do what @mailmandan does.
John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6........is Not posting scripture!

Post a couple and we'll discuss.

1. I have posted these passages so many times i lost count
2. As usual. you and others do not even consider them, you just keep talking as if they do not exist.
3. Mailmandan does the same. He posts scripture all the time.. and gets to the point, he will just post passages.

everyone does it..

but here for the umpteenth time

John 1 _as many as have received him
John 3 - Whoever believes in me by looking to the cross will never perish, and they will live forever
john 4. ask and I will give you rivers of living water flowing to eternal life
John 5, See and believe and you will pass from death to life. and you will not come into judgment
John 6. Eat this food which endures forever. and you will NEVER hunger, NEVER thirst, NEVER perish, you will NEVER die, you will live FOREVER, you will NEVER be lost. and I will raise you as apposed to have you delivered to me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here's the post in question...
it was posted by @Dizerner

He stated nothing, but just posted this:

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,"
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ
only if we hold the beginning of our confidence
steadfast to the end...

(Heb. 3:12-14)

those who are saved will hold fast.

Those who do not believe will not

YOU said he did some word twisting.

So I asked you how many verses you need to show that we must HOLD ON to the beginning of our confidence to the end and not DEPART from the Living God.

If Paul (?) wrote the words....we should take them at face value.

Hold on. keep on holding on. If you think this will save you. feel free.

You give yourself more power that I can achieve. God must hold on to me, its why I trust him not self.

If you think you can be worthy, be my guest.

Hebrews was written to Jews. Not every Jew that the author wrote to were saved people. many were lost many wanted to go back to law. many had no faith in God. but was trying this new church thing out.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Lordship OSAS is at least mildly better than Free Grace, which teaches you can literally make zero changes in your life.

Grace does not teach this

one day you and others will get this in your minds that true grace, which is paid for by christ. teaches Grace is the means f change.

Licentiousness teaches this, but then they are condemned by James, Peter and Jude..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, EG, brother, I'm saying this in a nice way.
The world does not revolve around YOU.

So you can not show me anyone who believes this. no one in this chatroom. anyone??

It does not resolve around you either. but if your going to make a statement, at least you can back it up

I've had to read many posts, probably more than you, and let me tell you, YES, these persons exist.

I have been in chat rooms for over 10 years. how long have you been in them?

I have been all over my country as I lived in different parts being in the military and have had conversations with many many people from all walks of life and many churches.

so I would doubt you have read or discussed more than me

but that does not matter

if you have seen them, show me one, so I can talk to him and find out what he is coming from.

Do you know them?
Probably one of them, but I'm not naming names.

one?

You talk in here as if many many people do this.. almost every post you say your fighting this curse.. yet you say we might know 1?

who are you fighting against then?

And there was one guy on ChristianChat that devoted all his time to telling everyone that our works are filthy rags....
you know HIM...but not naming names.

Well the bible does tell us that

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

the hebrew word there is id-dim - filthy is actually a bad translation. the literal translation is a menstrual rag. or menstration. it speaks of a woman's monthly cycle. and the rag which soaks up all the blood. Isaiah is stating plainly. Handin gour works to God and expecting him to take these as payment for sin is like handing him the bloody rag from un unclean woman.

This is how it is EG....
Some persons on these boards have been taught that we need to rely SOLELY on ourselves.
This is known as monergism. I know you hate isms, but that's the word.

Monergism states it is solely the work of God. we have no part. even faith is us trying to earn salvation. so they reject it.. So why would you call them people who rely on themselves??

yes, I hate isms, and it seems you made a mistake. did you mean synergism? they rely on themselves.. although I think they say self and God.

God is a relatinship.
Good.
Any relationship is TWO-SIDED....
This is knows as synergism.

yes

But until one is saved. there is no relationship. the relationship was severed because of sin, spiritual death is the result.

we must be saved, rescued from the wage of sin before the relationship can be restored.

this is done by grace through faith.

Once the relationship is restored. yes it takes two people. but that is the relationship.. the relationship may be good or bad at times. But it is still there. it is never severed, because it was never earned.

in essence we are saved by monergism (where faith is included) and our christian growth is through synergism.

Synergism is what is taught in the bible.

For salvation no it is not

God did HIS part....He atoned for our sins....the gates of heaven have been opened...no more Abraham's Bossom.

That the only part that saves. it is the payment which allows God to even offer us the gift of grace.

Now it's time to do OUR part....

Our part is one thing, to recieve his gift in faith.

obey Jesus.
DO as he taught.

Then your under law not under grace.

there is no way to spin this sis.

There are two ways to heaven in scripture

1. the law - requires perfection.. everyone on earth is disqualified including you and me
2. Grace, based on the cross. Given to those who receive in faith

any other gospel is to be anathema

Yes. There some nuance here....
but I believe it's important to be clear.
Gnosticism was already crawling into the church before John died.

Agree

This is why he said THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US (not yelling)...

But it is not just them who leave

John did not call them gnistic.

he called them antichrists.

they walk with us, and talked with us, meaning they claimed or said they were part of us (had faith)

then they walked away. and now reject Christ,

they were never saved.. It is not just gnostics who do this

but this is taken to mean that they were not really saved.
Which, really doesn't mean too much,,,,,many LISTEN and then they don't like what they hear and they leave.
Just like Jesus said in John 6....when He asked if the Apostles also would leave.
It does not mean they were saved, then became lost....
It just doesn't apply AT ALL.

we could use this argument for anyone who walks away, unless they are prodigal children

the key word is they are now unbeievers. they reject christ, they are antichrist.

they do this

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

I believe this is where we disagree.
Our faith is in the work of God.
The Cross.
Agreed.

Mine is yes, from the day I called out until right now. My faith is in the work of God.

But you have NO faith in YOUR works?

To save me? Absolutely not.

those works are called self righteous works.. we are not doing them to serve God we are doing them to serve self (we expect salvation or we expect to stay saved. or keep from losing salvation based on those works)

And yet we are told to pay attention to do them:

• Matthew 5:16:
  "Let your light shine before others, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
  
  
• Titus 3:8:
  "This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to affirm it constantly: that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."
• Galatians 6:9-10:
  "Let us not grow weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the household of faith."
  
  
• Hebrews 10:24-25:
  "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good works, not abandoning our assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near."
  
  
• 1 Timothy 6:17-18:
  "Command those who are rich in this present age not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."
  
  
• Ephesians 2:10:
  "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
  
  
• James 2:26:
  "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

Yes.

I do this every day

againi, not to earn salvation. I can;t do this

but because I trust God

without faith it is impossible to please God..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus gives reassurance.

3 So He told them this parable:
4 What man of you, if he has a hundred sheep and should lose one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness (desert) and go after the one that is lost until he finds it?

5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his [own] shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he gets home, he summons together [his] friends and [his] neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 Thus, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one [especially] wicked person who repents (changes his mind, abhorring his errors and misdeeds, and determines to enter upon a better course of life) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who have no need of repentance.

8 Or what woman, having ten [silver] drachmas [each one equal to a day’s wages], if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and look carefully and diligently until she finds it?

9 And when she has found it, she summons her [women] friends and neighbors, saying, Rejoice with me, for I have found the silver coin which I had lost.

10 Even so, I tell you, there is joy among and in the presence of the angels of God over one [especially] wicked person who repents (changes his mind for the better, heartily amending his ways, with abhorrence of his past sins).


Just as a shepherd does not rest until he has found a lost sheep and just as a woman does not rest until she has found a lost coin, even so does the Lord not rest until he has found (restored) a backslidden believer.

amen

his sheep hear his voice. and they follow

if they do not. they were never his sheep