Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Larry]

Jesus gives reassurance.

3 So He told them this parable:
4 What man of you, if he has a hundred sheep and should lose one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness (desert) and go after the one that is lost until he finds it?

5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his [own] shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he gets home, he summons together [his] friends and [his] neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 Thus, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one [especially] wicked person who repents (changes his mind, abhorring his errors and misdeeds, and determines to enter upon a better course of life) than over ninety-nine righteous persons who have no need of repentance.

8 Or what woman, having ten [silver] drachmas [each one equal to a day’s wages], if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and look carefully and diligently until she finds it?

9 And when she has found it, she summons her [women] friends and neighbors, saying, Rejoice with me, for I have found the silver coin which I had lost.

10 Even so, I tell you, there is joy among and in the presence of the angels of God over one [especially] wicked person who repents (changes his mind for the better, heartily amending his ways, with abhorrence of his past sins).


Just as a shepherd does not rest until he has found a lost sheep and just as a woman does not rest until she has found a lost coin, even so does the Lord not rest until he has found (restored) a backslidden believer.

 

[Dizerner]

even so does the Lord not rest until he has found (restored) a backslidden believer.

Let us also not forget the testimony of our free will:

How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matt. 23:37 NKJ)

 

[GodsGrace]

It's not that important a point really, but your view of the ECFs seems a bit too high maybe as a holdover from RCC theology. It is not relative time that makes someone's teaching more or less accurate or inspired, it is their personal yieldedness to the Spirit.

I'm not Catholic D.
There's no holdover.

Protestants also read the ECFs.

And as to being relative to the time...
YES...it IS relative to the time.

After the Council of Nicea (it started just before that ) the early church, wandered away from its early teachings.
It became enbroiled with Politics and some doctrine was even changed.
I give you Augustine on free will and baptism.

Yieldedness to the Spirit: Let's please remember that this ECFs went to their death (many of them) for what they believed.
Ignatius of Antioch wrote his best letters on his way to Rome to be fed to the lions.

You could say, ah, what's the big deal, but the foundational logic of moving inspiration to the ECF leads to a lot of bad results and conclusions. The apostles had wrong opinions and said terrible things while Christ was still alive.

They got it right by the end.
The problem is that Jesus was not legalistic and left nothing in writing and probably obeyed the Jewish rules and the Apostles wanted to get the Gentiles to join this "new religion".

I'll go so far as to say that it is THE APOSTLES that we are trusting.
Who are you trusting?

Jesus left nothing in writing !

Peter had to be corrected by Paul on an absolutely essential and vital Gospel issue only a few years after Christ died. It should never, ever be the hermeneutic that people are somehow more inspired just by the time period they live in—that's fundamentally wrong on every level.

Replied to.

Rabbis were not somehow more inspired because they lived closer to the time of the OT prophets. That's just not how that works. And what the logic of that does is, move someone away from personally hearing God through the Word for themselves.

Replied to.
Rabbis that lived at the time of Jesus certainly saw things differently than those of today.
Those that saw Kennedy be shot and lived through it....
understand it differently than a studen of 16 of today learning it in school.

But I explained why timing matters up above.

The reason people quote ministers and preachers is usually because, they feel the preacher is saying what the Word is saying, they are just reapplying and reinforcing what Scripture already teaches us. Not because they are made into some special status that now regulates and tells us what Scripture must mean.

Oh, but they are being made into regulators of scripture.

Why dont' they all agree on what scripture means?

I don't listen to preachers....but why would I ever quote one?
Because he agrees with me!
Everyone seems to have their favorite preacher.
I don't.
After some years of thought...I've pretty much left CHURCH.
And I've studied for years with 2 denomnations and even with a monk.
Not too interested anymore.

So... let's get out our shrink ray and put every human being back in his proper place under Scripture—fallible men who, in their honesty, almost all admitted they were capable of making many mistakes. We have the book of John God gave us—we don't need some extra teaching of someone under John who kept special teachings that John withheld from us.

Huh?
Ignatius SHARED what John taught him.
I'm not sure what you mean.

We have the Bible.

Agreed.
I ended with that too.

But take OSAS.
What did the early Fathers believe?
Might they have had teachings on this?

What about free will?
Can the Calvinists be right?

I started reading them recently and have found this to be of great help.

They CONFIRM the bible and Jesus' teachings.

 

[Begotten]

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

We have eternal life the moment we believe, we will never lose this divine life. WE will remain justified and never revert back to condemnation, We have permanently passed from death unto life.

That's what eternal life is.

 

[GodsGrace]

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

I'm stopping here MMD.
Sorry.
I was going to list the two reasons why Hebrews was written....
ask from WHAT they were going astray in their heart....

but it's 1:45 am and I'm just too tired.

Tomorrow!

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

OK.
Proof positive that UNBELIEF and DISOBEY means exactly the same in the original Greek.
Same idea in two verses one after the other.

More tomorrow.
Happy to be reading some scripture!
'night.

In Jude 1:5, we read - the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

Now what about those faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

I may not be reading this right...too tired...
did you just say that future perseverance is proof of genuine convesion??

This would meant aht we have NO assurance of our faith!
Maybe it's not what you meant.
again...good night.

 

[Aaron]

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But in reality I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous.

 

[Biblelesson]

I'm not Catholic D.
There's no holdover.

Protestants also read the ECFs.

And as to being relative to the time...
YES...it IS relative to the time.

After the Council of Nicea (it started just before that ) the early church, wandered away from its early teachings.
It became enbroiled with Politics and some doctrine was even changed.
I give you Augustine on free will and baptism.

Yieldedness to the Spirit: Let's please remember that this ECFs went to their death (many of them) for what they believed.
Ignatius of Antioch wrote his best letters on his way to Rome to be fed to the lions.




They got it right by the end.
The problem is that Jesus was not legalistic and left nothing in writing and probably obeyed the Jewish rules and the Apostles wanted to get the Gentiles to join this "new religion".

I'll go so far as to say that it is THE APOSTLES that we are trusting.
Who are you trusting?

Jesus left nothing in writing !

Replied to.


Replied to.
Rabbis that lived at the time of Jesus certainly saw things differently than those of today.
Those that saw Kennedy be shot and lived through it....
understand it differently than a studen of 16 of today learning it in school.

But I explained why timing matters up above.

Oh, but they are being made into regulators of scripture.

Why dont' they all agree on what scripture means?

I don't listen to preachers....but why would I ever quote one?
Because he agrees with me!
Everyone seems to have their favorite preacher.
I don't.
After some years of thought...I've pretty much left CHURCH.
And I've studied for years with 2 denomnations and even with a monk.
Not too interested anymore.

Huh?
Ignatius SHARED what John taught him.
I'm not sure what you mean.

Agreed.
I ended with that too.

But take OSAS.
What did the early Fathers believe?
Might they have had teachings on this?

What about free will?
Can the Calvinists be right?

I started reading them recently and have found this to be of great help.

They CONFIRM the bible and Jesus' teachings.

Right on, you just can't go wrong with Calvinism.

 

[Dizerner]

YES...it IS relative to the time.

I showed very clearly, from logic and Scripture, that is completely false.

Peter sat under Christ's direct ministry and had a fundamental error in doctrine.

Huh?
Ignatius SHARED what John taught him.
I'm not sure what you mean.

My point was extremely clear, how could you possibly miss it.

We don't need Ignatius and Polycarp.

We literally have everything we need in the Bible.

Who are you trusting?

Jesus alone.

 

[Biblelesson]

The sheep of Christ will never perish, it's a done deal.
​

27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27–28.

We sheep hear the voice of Christ, and we follow Christ, and we will never perish, we belong to Christ, for He knows and loves us, gives us eternal life, and holds us in His hand. If a believer "one of Christ’s sheep" apostatizes, he perishes and Christ said that His sheep would never perish. So If you believe what Jesus tells us, then believe we will persevere, it's a done deal.
​

 

[Dizerner]

When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous.

Then why weren't you born already saved then, why isn't the Cross stronger than your free will.

What could possibly be more gracious than God automatically saving you without your free will at all?

You've made a serious mistake here.

 

[Dizerner]

The sheep of Christ will never perish, it's a done deal.​

Do you ascribe to Eternal Justification?

Are people born sheep?

 

[Lily]

God does not wear rose–colored glasses. He is not in the habit of pretending something is true when in fact it isn’t. So how can He declare guilty men and women “not guilty”?

Paul sums up the answer to that question in his second letter to the Corinthians:

He made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

So God made a swap. Actually, the correct term is imputation. He imputed our sin to Christ and His righteousness to us. To impute something to people is to credit them with it. Christ credited us with His righteousness, including all its rights and privileges.

He made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[mailmandan]

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But in reality I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous.

Exactly. Or add to it.

 

[Dizerner]

He imputed our sin to Christ and His righteousness to us.

Conditional upon our faith.

through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand (Rom. 5:2 NKJ)

No faith, no imputation.

 

[mailmandan]

Lordship OSAS is at least mildly better than Free Grace, which teaches you can literally make zero changes in your life.

Let's just say I have more faith in God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; 1 Corinthians 1:8; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) than I do in self preservation.

 

[Dizerner]

Let's just say I have more faith in God's preservation (Psalm 37:28; 1 Corinthians 1:8; 1 Peter 1:5; Jude 1:1) than I do in self preservation.

Let's also just say God tells ME to CHOOSE this day whom I will serve.

The logic of eternal security inevitably leads, if consistently followed, to the complete elimination of all free will.

 

[civic]

I showed very clearly, from logic and Scripture, that is completely false.

Peter sat under Christ's direct ministry and had a fundamental error in doctrine.



My point was extremely clear, how could you possibly miss it.

We don't need Ignatius and Polycarp.

We literally have everything we need in the Bible.




Jesus alone.

And we don’t need the reformers who invented PSA.

Next fallacy

 

[mailmandan]

Let's also just say God tells ME to CHOOSE this day whom I will serve.

The logic of eternal security inevitably leads, if consistently followed, to the complete elimination of all free will.

I have chosen to serve the Lord starting around 27 years ago and that choice has not wavered through today. I have not lost free will. The big difference is being a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and being made a partaker of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) The change makes the difference.

 

[JLB]

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

We have eternal life the moment we believe, we will never lose this divine life. WE will remain justified and never revert back to condemnation, We have permanently passed from death unto life.

That's what eternal life is.

Yes we have eternal life when we believe.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3

Eternal life is knowing Him. Knowing Him is also called being in Christ; joined to Christ being one spirit with Him.



He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


It’s one thing to believe and be saved and thus be in Christ.


It’s another thing altogether to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[Dizerner]

And we don’t need the reformers

I never said we did. Calvin and Luther were bonkers.

who invented PSA.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

It's like saying they invented looking to the Bible alone.