Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[mailmandan]

Yes, but you must actively confess and believe our Lord Jesus. It is not a passive event. confess and believe are active verbs, not passive verbs.
Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and not a work for salvation that follows believing unto righteousness. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord upon conversion and after. Hence, actively confess and believe is ongoing. Now this confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

Focus on the verses that actually talk about salvations and justification. Why do you wander off to verses that do not? It's obvious why.

Salvations plural? I do focus on verses that talk about salvation and justification. Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 5:1 are good places to start.

Are you still talking about James 2:18? Salvation is not mentioned there. Let's go back to verse 14 where salvation is being referred to:

We still show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Show, not establish. Big difference. The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.

(James 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

Says (key word) he has faith and does not have works (to evidence his claim). What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. Something that is dead cannot produce anything.

Can The Faith that saves save him? No. Why? Because it's dead D E A D. Why is it dead? Because it has no good works.

It's dead because it is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. It has no good works because it's dead. You have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse. Faith is established first when we are made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-9) and good works follow after having been created in ChristJesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Dizerner]

Find me a Free Grace person preaching this verse ever:

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. — Jesus

 

[Aaron]

My thoughts on eternal security, or "once saved, always saved."

The good soil brought forth fruit unto perfection Matt. 13:3–23

The wayside soil, the stony soil, and the thorny soil represent three classes of people that make improper responses to the preaching of the word and so do not become Christians.

We want the good soil as it represents the persons that makes a proper response to the preaching of the word and so do become Christians.

Just as the seed in the good soil was nourished by nature until it brought forth fruit unto perfection, even so is the seed (the word of God) in the Christian nourished by God until it brings forth fruit unto perfection.

I need those three things in my walk.

In other words, God nourishes the seed sown in us until a harvest is realized. All Christians are fruitful but some Christians, being more yielded to God than other Christians, are more fruitful than other Christians.

 

[mailmandan]

Find me a Free Grace person preaching this verse ever:

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. — Jesus

A tree does not bear good fruit because it's a bad tree. (Matthew 7:17-20)

 

[Dizerner]

In other words, God nourishes the seed sown in us until a harvest is realized. All Christians are fruitful but some Christians, being more yielded to God than other Christians, are more fruitful than other Christians.

And some Christians turn back to perdition, and their life gets choked by the thorns and rocks and birds.

As Scripture warns us, they believe for awhile, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[Dizerner]

A tree does not bear good fruit because it's a bad tree. (Matthew 7:17-20)

Many people in this thread say requiring good fruit is salvation by your own works.

Apparently Jesus did not think that.

 

[synergy]

You say it, then you deny it

False statements will get you nowhere. I already said that there's One Faith, the Faith.

I understand it well.
and I showed you.
using your own words. "THE FAITH" refers back the faith faith that people SAID THEY had,,
ie. They said they had FAITH.... And can The faith" are one and the same faith
And james asked the question. can "the faith they claimed to have in essense0) save them

The phrase "they claimed to have in essense0)" in not in the text. So I'm tossing out your attempt to rewrite verse 14.

The text reads "Can faith save him?" or better still (according to the Greek) "Can the Faith save him?

James 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

the answer is no

lets look at a better view using the same greek words

Verse 14​

What doth it profit? (τ οφελοσ. Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from οφελλω, to increase, in N.T. only here, verse James 2:16 (NAS)

If a man say (εαν λεγη τις). Condition of third class with εαν and the present active subjunctive of λεγω, "if one keep on saying."

He hath faith (πιστιν εχειν). Infinitive in indirect assertion after λεγη.

But have not works (εργα δε μη εχη). Third-class condition continued, "but keeps on not having (μη and present active subjunctive εχη) works." It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns.

Can that faith save him? (μη δυνατα η πιστις σωσα αυτον. Negative answer expected (μη). Effective aorist active infinitive σωσα (from σωζω). The article η here is almost demonstrative in force as it is in origin, referring to the claim of faith without works just made.

It does not get any more clear than this. Good find

Copy and Paste with no indication of your source.

God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

Also, when people refer to God do they say "that God". Maybe around your circles but not around mine.

 

[mailmandan]

Many people in this thread say requiring good fruit is salvation by your own works.

Apparently Jesus did not think that.

Requiring good works as the means of salvation renders Christ an insufficient Savior. Good fruit is the evidence of a good tree and is the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No good fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. All you are left with then is a bad tree that produces bad fruit.

 

[ProDeo]

On Hebrews 6

Hebr 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebr 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebr 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

<in brainstorm mode>

It's probably farfetched, but the Hebrews author says : in the case.....

Does he mean in the hypothetical case?

IOW, it's just theoretical impossible for someone born again, a new creature in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, bought by a price, the good soil can fall away?

<end of brainstorm mode>

 

[civic]

False statements will get you nowhere. I already said that there's One Faith, the Faith.

The phrase "they claimed to have in essense0)" in not in the text. So I'm tossing out your attempt to rewrite verse 14.

The text reads "Can faith save him?" or better still (according to the Greek) "Can the Faith save him?

James 2:14 My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

Copy and Paste with no indication of your source.

God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

Also, when people refer to God do they say "that God". Maybe around your circles but not around mine.

Yes the same as one gospel , one Baptism, one Lord, one God etc…

 

[Dizerner]

<in brainstorm mode>

It's probably farfetched, but the Hebrews author says : in the case..... Does he mean in the hypothetical case?

This has been suggested, there are quite a few creative ways to try to get around it just being a straightforward warning.

Warning someone of something that literally cannot happen is a case of dishonesty.

It's like saying to your child, "If you don't clean your room, the closet monster will eat you!"

But it's a "hypothetical" warning that "is just theoretically impossible", right?!

No.... you just lied to your kid to get them to do something, lol.

Yeah... farfetched is a good word.

 

[Aaron]

And some Christians turn back to perdition, and their life gets choked by the thorns and rocks and birds.

As Scripture warns us, they believe for awhile, and in time of temptation fall away.

If they truly believed they would never fall away. We both know where we are coming from. We are just on different sides of the fence.

 

[synergy]

then it cant save

which is exactly what James was truyign to point out to the people

if you say you have faith, but you do not have the works that show that your faith was real. can that faith save you? No.

he is not saying we must have faith p0lus works.

You just blatantly contradicted James 2:24. Well done.

(Jas 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

He is saving living faith will produce works. so if you claim you have this living faith. but do not have the works that you should have.

your faith is dead..

The Faith comes from God.
The Faith with your good works makes your Faith alive.
The Faith with none of your good works makes your faith dead.

Paul said we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (living faith) NOT WORKS.. lest anyone should boast.

He also said if Abraham was saved by works he had something to boast about.. but not before God. for whoever works to them it is credited as debt..

James did not contradict paul. they are 100 % in agreement

Paul. Your saved by grace through faith those who are saved WILL do works.
James if you claim you have faith and are saved by grace, but do not have works. can that faith save you? no

its basic

grace plus faith = salvation

1 + 1 = 1

grace minus faith = no salvation

1 + 0 = 0

Now you're branching off into Grace. That's a whole different story.

 

[Dizerner]

If they truly believed they would never fall away.

Said no Scripture ever.

We both know where we are coming from. We are just on different sides of the fence.

I'm trying to get people on the "Scripture" side.

 

[Dizerner]

You just blatantly contradicted James 2:24. Well done.

(Jas 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

This Scripture alone destroys the whole idea that any requirement in our life is meriting our salvation.

It's in there for a reason, yet it just gets glossed over.

 

[synergy]

can the faith (THE FAITH THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE) save them

You keep inserting words that are not there. That is a nasty habit of yours.

The text reads "Can faith save him?" or better still (according to the Greek) "Can the Faith save him?

do you understand that if you claim to have that saving faith. but you do not have that saving faith. it can not save you?

What's with this "that" word. That's another word not found in James 2:24.

lol.. You have to get your good works in don;t you?

Paul said no works. He said works cancel grace
He said faith plus works literally equals works

He said no works of the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. It's time to catch up with history.

You want to pit james and paul. feel free

LOL. That's what you're doing.

 

[mailmandan]

If they truly believed they would never fall away. We both know where we are coming from. We are just on different sides of the fence.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us;  for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;  but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Aaron]

Said no Scripture ever.



I'm trying to get people on the "Scripture" side.

OK one more time just to make it simple. You will never convince me that a true believer can become un-saved and vice versa.

 

[Dizerner]

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us;  for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;  but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

One of the Calvinist's favorite verse, utilized also by their OSAS offshoots.

Says nothing about being born again or some universal principle that no born again person can fall away.

It's like, "Here's a verse that vaguely sounds like what we want, that settles the matter!"

But of course we all know that's "eisegesis," the Calvinist's favorite word.

 

[Dizerner]

OK one more time just to make it simple. You will never convince me that a true believer can become un-saved and vice versa.

God gave people free will to reject his Word.

I have never EVER even implied differently.