Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[synergy]

I'm not appealing to authority....but my Italian bibles, which are the closest we'll get to Greek...say the following:

James 2:14
Either
THE FAITH
or
FAITH

Not
THAT FAITH.

Yes. Just like you can say the Sun or Sun, the same way you can say the Faith or Faith. The NKJV is good on that.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for understanding...
It's good to do good works for God !

How about posting scripture?
How about not putting verses in parenthesis?
How about learning HOW TO POST scripture?

So which teachings of Jesus, or any other writer of the NT,
do you believe spoke about faith ONLY??


As usual, I don't see any scripture to support your position.

But here is what the NT teaches about good works:
There are many, many more verses, but the following should suffice.
Two or three verses should suffice...there are ten's of them.

Matthew 5:16​

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:10​

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

James 2:14-17​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:26​

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

Colossians 3:23-24​

Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.

Hebrews 13:16​

Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

Galatians 6:9​

And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

James 4:17​

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Titus 2:14​

Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

1 Timothy 6:17-19​

As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

Romans 2:6-10​

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

​

That is what you believe.
I believe that Jesus and the others are telling us how to get to heaven.

Some passages are descriptive and some are prescriptive.
It's important to know the difference.



WHERE does it state what you post above?

This is what Jesus taught in

Matthew 7:24-29
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell -and great was its fall."
28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.


Let's review what Jesus actually stated BEFORE you added your own ideas:

1. Those who hear and ACT are wise.
2. Their house did NOT FALL.
3. Those who hear and DO NOT ACT on Jesus' words are foolish.
4. Their house DID FALL. And great was its fall.

On what were THOSE persons supposed to act on?

Jesus is giving the sermon on the Mount.
See Matthew 5:3-10 Jesus is telling persons HOW they are to BEHAVE:
Blessed are the poor in spirit ---- because they know they need God.
Blessed are those who mourn----they understand the world we live in.
Blessed are the gentile------they will be first in the Kingdom....
etc.

Matthew 5:21.....More teaching on behavior:
If you hate your brother....you have commited murder.

Matthew 5:27.....You can commit adultery by lusting alone.

Matthew 5:29.....sounds serious....better to "remove" body parts than to sin.

Matthew 5:30......no divorce.

etc.

THESE ARE THE WORDS of Christ that He spoke of as being followed BY THE WISE MAN.



I don't see any of your words in any of Jesus' teachings.

If you could just show them..it would be nice.

Still no scripture.

However, what you're stating above is NOT what is taught in the NT.

Here is what Jesus said we need to do for salvation:

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


1. JESUS said a time is coming for judgment.
2. Those who did GOOD DEEDS will come forward to a life of resurrection.
3. Those who did evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
There is no talk here of being born again, eternal salvation, or any other such idea.,,,,
He clearly teaches that we will be judged by OUR ACTIONS,,,OUR GOOD DEEDS or our evil deeds.


Here is what Paul said about our judgment:

Romans 2:5-8
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


1. God will render to each man according to his deeds.
2. Those who persevere in DOING GOOD, glory, honor and eternal life.
3. Those who do not OBEY THE TRUTH...wrath and indignation.



Did you just switch to OSAS?
Let's check your verses...thanks for posting them:
Psalm 37:28 Who will be cut off? Unbelievers? No. Descendants of the WICKED. We must not read into scripture our own belief system.


John 10:27 Jesus' sheep HEAR HIS VOICE. Present tense.
And they FOLLOW HIM. What do you think it means TO FOLLOW when Jesus uses that term?
Maybe it means this:
Luke 9:23
And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.


Galatians 5:24
24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.


Luke 6:40
40A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.


1 Corinthians 1:8

1 Corinthians 1:6-9
6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.


Verse 6: Christ has been verified in your lives.
Verse 7: God has given you every gift you need.
Verse 8: God is near to us to keep us on track...waiting for our Lord to return.
Verse 9: God will be faithful in His promise...He will help us always.


God is faithful to Himself and His promises.
If we do NOT deny Him...He will never deny us.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.

Two comments:

1. 1 Peter 1:5 is always true as is all scripture.
But did you notice
1 Peter 1:2
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

We're told to obey Jesus.
We need to read all of scripture.
If we believe, we are saved...if we do not obey the wrath of God remains.
John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

You could change the word OBEY to BELIEVE if you prefer....
same difference.


2. Which kind of faith? Peter doesn't specify!
Maybe he means the same kind of faith as in James 2:14??
James doesn't specify either.
Interesting.

Maybe there's just ONE KIND of faith??



Agreed.
We are preserved IN JESUS CHRIST.
If we abide in Him we are saved.
If we do NOT abide in Him...we cannot be saved.

You know somebody that is perfect?


We've been through this before....
TO KEEP means TO KEEP.
In ANY language.

Did you notice that one of the words FROM WHICH YOU COULD CHOOSE
IS. I KEEP....

LOL
So are yours!
But you keep posting them anyway.

THIS is what you posted in no. 704:
"You make perseverance sound like an extremely difficult burden that most Christians will surely fail to do and the Lord will so easily allow Christians to slip through His hands. "

YOU stated that I make perseverance wound extremely difficult.
That is YOU projecting.
I posted that Jesus' commands are not burdensome....
and they SHOULD NOT be.


I just post scripture.
You can believe it at will.


WHERE does it state this in Luke 8:13??

Do you NOT BELIEVE what JESUS says?

He said THEY BELIEVE FOR A WHILE...
FOR A WHILE...
THEY THEY FALL AWAY...
FALL AWAY.

Don't you like how Jesus communicates?
It seems very clear.

You add to scripture to make it say what YOU want it to say.
THIS is eisegesis.

So could you post some verses that explain HOW a person's heart is prepared?
Maybe Jesus forgot to read this part.

So BELIEF is NOT what saves?
There's a special KIND of belief that we are to assume if we want to be saved?

So how can you be sure YOU are saved?
Maybe YOU don't have the proper type of belief...

Especially in view of the fact that you don't believe what Jesus taught....
But add your own ideas and spin to it to make it mean what YOU theologically believe.


In fact, the one that fell away did not bear fruit
BECAUSE it fell away.

Proven, once again that OSAS is a false belief system.

JESUS stated one could fall away.

Fall away from what?

Oh sweet.
You mean that the PS was not really THE SON before he left his father's house?

I thought that you believed that if one is A SON...
he is ALWAYS A SON.

Incorrect theology always catches up with itself.

Was the prodigal son a son OR NOT???

Can't have it both ways ....

Always trying to change the wording to suit YOURSELF.

Replied to above.
See if you can get yourself out of this corner.


Interesting.

View attachment 1968

Hmmm. So is this what Matthew 7:20 means?
Jesus said OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (maybe He really meant HIS righteousness?)
MUST SUPASS that of the Pharisees....
Need I post the pretzel again?


Truly ubelievable.
You're very good at this.

View attachment 1968

Thanks be to God.

But here is what THE JUDGE states:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

SOME Christians teach that fruit is not necessary.
Some teach that fruit is BAD....because it is being self-righteous.


So nice of you to explain everything mailmandan.

And you sure do like the sound of your own voice.

So I spent all my time here with you.
But it was worth it to expose how incorrect your theology is.

You even posted a self-imposed conflict regarding the Prodigal Son.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


Here is the snapshot of that Day.

• Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46

 

[Johann]

Keep focused on the Greek.

(James 2:14) Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν, ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

It's clear that the Greek word ἡ translates to "the" and not "that". Even first year Greek Language students know that.

The Greek word for feminine "that" is αυτή - nowhere found in the Greek verse.

Therefore, ἡ πίστις translates to "the Faith".

Even first year Greek Language students understand this.

I'm honestly weary of going in circles on this verse...it's been days of repeated input from various perspectives. At this point, I'd prefer to move forward and focus on areas where I can be edified and continue growing.

Shalom.

J.

 

[synergy]

I think you are kind of focusing on the wrong thing here.

Would you not say that a living faith and a dead faith are not the same faith?

You put 2 negatives into one sentence. Let me sort this out.
Is this your question?:
Would you say that a living faith and a dead faith are the same faith?
Yes, they're the same faith but in 2 states (state 1: alive, state 2: dead).

 

[synergy]

I'm honestly weary of going in circles on this verse...it's been days of repeated input from various perspectives. At this point, I'd prefer to move forward and focus on areas where I can be edified and continue growing.

Shalom.

J.

That's fine, my friend.
Shalom and keep the One Alive Saving Faith!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


Here is the snapshot of that Day.

• Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31-46

Seems very easy, doesn't it?
To some it is not...and Jesus' words being ignored is the worst part of it all.

Even the words of Jesus are twisted to represent what a member might believe.

 

[Dizerner]

Yes, they're the same faith but in 2 states (state 1: alive, state 2: dead).

Those don't look the same to me.

 

[Dizerner]

You mean like a saving faith and the faith of demons ?

That's a good illustration, someone should use it...

 

[synergy]

Those don't look the same to me.

Here's an example:
It's like one cat. That cat can be either alive or dead. It's the same cat.

 

[GodsGrace]

Those don't look the same to me.

There's only one faith for us D....the Christian faith.
It can be accepted or not...
If accepted it's alive.
If denied it's of no use and is dead.

 

[JLB]

Seems very easy, doesn't it?
To some it is not...and Jesus' words being ignored is the worst part of it all.

Even the words of Jesus are twisted to represent what a member might believe.

I have discovered over the years that people who have a genuine relationship with the Lord, tend to emphasize His words, and are not afraid of the true; they love the truth.

 

[Dizerner]

There's only one faith for us D....the Christian faith.
It can be accepted or not...
If accepted it's alive.
If denied it's of no use and is dead.

I don't think a dead faith is the same faith as a living faith.

Color me crazy.

 

[Dizerner]

Here's an example:
It's like one cat. That cat can be either alive or dead. It's the same cat.

I don't think it IS the same cat, though, it seems like you are just begging the question there.

When something is dead a fundamental component is no longer there.

 

[JLB]

I don't think a dead faith is the same faith as a living faith.

Color me crazy.

There is only faith.

Faith comes from God. There is no other faith.

It’s either dead or alive.


Is a person who is dead a different species from a person who is alive.

 

[Dizerner]

There is only faith. Faith comes from God. There is no other faith.

It’s either dead or alive.

Dead faith comes from God, huh.

Now that surprises me... because I would be pretty sure a dead faith comes from the devil.

 

[GodsGrace]

how did we get from a church that looks to self the religion of works salvation to what choices we make?

again, what does this have to do with the fact 90% of all the earths religion teach our entrance to heaven is based on hos good we are. what works we perform. what works we do nto perform. or how many sins we may commit?

sorry, It did not fit. because I do not look at God in this way yet..

I will in the future. thats why I tried to switch it to a more personal present example with us being Gods children.

I know. But you do use alot of catholic argument.

Too tired and just too many posts.
What can we say that is new??

Why does believing in obedience to God sound Catholic??

Did I post the Pew Reseach Study that states that 53% of PROTESTANT Christians believe that
good works are necessary?

They're necessary because the NT teaches that we will be judged by them.
They're necessary because Jesus meant to establish the Kingdom of God here...
No good works...no Kingdom.

I'm really aghast at why we debate this.
At least we're nice to each other and debate as Christians should.
Not everybody does...on any forum - not particulary meaning this one.

 

[JLB]

Dead faith comes from God, huh.

Now that surprises me... because I would be pretty sure a dead faith comes from the devil.

Faith comes from God.

If the word by which we receive faith is acted up upon it’s activated and alive.

If the word by which we receive faith is not acted upon then the faith we received remains dormant, inactive, and therefore dead.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think a dead faith is the same faith as a living faith.

Color me crazy.

They're not the same in the sense you're stating now.
A dead faith is different than a faith that is alive.

What we're saying is that there is ONLY ONE FAITH.
It is either alive or dead.

I think what you mean is, yes, there is only one faith...
but they LOOK different??

IF this is what you mean, then of course I think we'd all agree with you.

But, there is only ONE faith...for us it's the Christian faith.

 

[synergy]

Dead faith comes from God, huh.
Now that surprises me... because I would be pretty sure a dead faith comes from the devil.

Faith comes from God.
What you do with it makes it alive or dead.

Same Faith from God.
Include it with good works that makes it alive.
No good works makes it dead.

 

[JLB]

Too tired and just too many posts.
What can we say that is new??

Why does believing in obedience to God sound Catholic??

Did I post the Pew Reseach Study that states that 53% of PROTESTANT Christians believe that
good works are necessary?

They're necessary because the NT teaches that we will be judged by them.
They're necessary because Jesus meant to establish the Kingdom of God here...
No good works...no Kingdom.

I'm really aghast at why we debate this.
At least we're nice to each other and debate as Christians should.
Not everybody does...on any forum - not particulary meaning this one.

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Luke 6:46


At the end of the proverbial Day, our Lord is the one we obey.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath