Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[synergy]

we are talking about One topic covered in james 2: 14 - 26

What does it profit a person if they CLAIM to have FAITH. but has no WORKS. CAN THAT FAITH SAME THEM.

What is your answer to that question? I will only take a Yes or a No.

there is the opening statement, the rest of the passage is James covering this topic.

Now unless you think ALL 12 tribes claim to have faith. yet have no works.. then you must stick to those who James is pointing to.

James is writing to "Brothers", believers in other words.

 

[mailmandan]

STRAWMAN.

You are just not capable of having a serious conversation.

I've been speaking about AFTER salvation all along.

So please answer this question, which I've been asking you for years:

AFTER SALVATION,,,ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Thanks.

I have already previously answered your loaded question but since my answer did not align with your belief that good works are required to maintain salvation and that good works are the means of receiving eternal life (which I disagree with) you simply dismissed my answer.

While good works are not required to obtain or maintain salvation, they are considered an important part of the Christian life and a necessary consequence of genuine faith. They are seen as the fruit, by product and demonstrate evidence of genuine faith.

Good works glorify our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16) and good works are also profitable to men. (Titus 3:8) We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[civic]

James 2 touches upon dozens of topics. If you want to keep avoiding the Justification topic of verse 24 then just say so and that will save us time.

Also we must remember the two types of justification represented in the NT and their distinctions.

1- by the law
2- by faith apart from the law

Sometimes these discussions have many talking passed one another.

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

Hebrews 10:19-24
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,

A child of God WILL take heed to such scriptures, when overall considered ~ meaning at times they do fall into sin, yet conviction and the power of the new nature causes them to repent and do their first works. Read the rest of this charter for a biblical conformation of what I'm saying.

Hebrews 10:38​

“Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.”

All of God's children say, AMEN and AMEN! You and your friends love to cherry pick scriptures and isolate them from the scriptures overall teachings, shame on you.

Do you believe in Hebrews 10:38? I certainly do, and so should you....it is God's testimony of the truth, when the scriptures are taken as a cohesive whole.

 

[mailmandan]

That's not all that good works are good for. Have you read James 2:24-26?

James 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Prove how you do not fail to properly harmonize your view of scripture with a proper reading of James 2:24-26.

CONTEXT. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - *fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[Red Baker]

@GodsGrace

AFTER SALVATION,,,ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

After being born again, YES we should be careful to do godly works pleasing unto God. Without godly fruit in our life, we have no evidence that we are God's children, and if a person lives in sins, his overall life is known to be ungodly, then he shall be cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What is your answer to that question? I will only take a Yes or a No.

Well if we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

then if I claim to have faith, but I in reality do not have faith. I am not saved

James is writing to "Brothers", believers in other words.

All words of scripture have parts written to non believers in an attempt to help them chose christ.

But hey, I guess like others. You believe a person can say they believe, Have no faith whatsoever, Be a hearer of the word only and not a doer. and walk like the world. not like a changed person

and they are saved,

I guess that's good to know (even though I know you do not believe this.) however, you in effect are saying this by claiming james spoke to believers.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

CONTEXT. In James 2:14, we read of one who SAYS/CLAIMS he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - *fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

its funny how people who hate easy believism.. and claim we MUST do works. say that people who claim to have faith. yet never have done any work. are saved.

wish they could get their thoughts in order. they might see the faw in what they are trying to tell us

 

[mailmandan]

LOL
You find difficulty in every verse that suggests we are to run the race, persevere to the end, do good works,
and anything else that would require some EFFORT on YOUR part.

Incredible.

I have no difficulty with those verses. I only have an issue with your eisegesis which culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.

As a Christian I am running the race, striving to do good works and perseverance to the end would be a confirmation of my salvation status.

One should never become so focused on what they DO that they lose sight of what Christ has already DONE and how we are saved in the first place. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have no difficulty with those verses. I only have an issue with your eisegesis which culminates in works salvation/works righteousness.

As a Christian I am running the race, striving to do good works and perseverance to the end would be a confirmation of my salvation status.

One should never become so focused on what they DO that they lose sight of what Christ has already DONE and how we are saved in the first place. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

we do what we do based on what God has done.

otherwise, it is just a bunch of filthy rags self righteousness

 

[synergy]

Also we must remember the two types of justification represented in the NT and their distinctions.

1- by the law

The only case here are the historical Nations (Gentiles):

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

2- by faith apart from the law

Correct. By faith, not by faith alone.

Sometimes these discussions have many talking passed one another.

Main issue is always people's inability to distinguish between the different types of works: "works of the Law", "good works", "works of faith", any effort exerted by humans, "labor of love", etc.....

 

[civic]

The only case here are the historical Nations (Gentiles):

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

Correct. By faith, not by faith alone.

Main issue is always people's inability to distinguish between the different types of works: "works of the Law", "good works", "works of faith", any effort exerted by humans, "labor of love", etc.....

Ditto

 

[synergy]

Well if we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH
then if I claim to have faith, but I in reality do not have faith. I am not saved

You changed the question. You brought in grace that the question never even mentions. Answer the question with a Yes or a No if you want us to proceed further.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The only case here are the historical Nations (Gentiles):

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

Correct. By faith, not by faith alone.

Main issue is always people's inability to distinguish between the different types of works: "works of the Law", "good works", "works of faith", any effort exerted by humans, "labor of love", etc.....

works of merit are works of merit

they cancel grace

if it is of works, it is no longer of grace. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The wage of sin is death, You going to be baptized will not remove 1 sin from the debt you own God

You doing your best to obey Gods commands will not remove 1 sin from the debt you own God.

You doing a million good deeds. as apposed to only a few sins, will not remove one sin from the debt you owe God.

Jesus removed the denbt on the cross.

You either recieve his gift of salvation.

or you reject it by trying to work to earn his gift.

 

[synergy]

works of merit are works of merit

they cancel grace

if it is of works, it is no longer of grace. otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The wage of sin is death, You going to be baptized will not remove 1 sin from the debt you own God

You doing your best to obey Gods commands will not remove 1 sin from the debt you own God.

You doing a million good deeds. as apposed to only a few sins, will not remove one sin from the debt you owe God.

Jesus removed the denbt on the cross.

You either recieve his gift of salvation.

or you reject it by trying to work to earn his gift.

You may bark against Rom 2:13-15 all you want. I'll stick with Paul, if you don't mind.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You changed the question.

I just answered the question.

If I CLAIM I HAVE FAITH.. but I do not have works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE ME

it would be better if it was written, can that CLAIMED FAITH save me

You brought in grace that the question never even mentions. Answer the question with a Yes or a No if you want us to proceed further.

I answered the question iwth a yes or a no. and I explained my answer.

dude, if your going to talk to me, You need to learn to understand what i am saying. I am a little sick of being falsly accused by people who do not know how to read.

Well if we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

then if I claim to have faith, but I in reality do not have faith. I am not saved

Most people would read this, and understand the answer is NO.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You may bark against Rom 2:13-15 all you want. I'll stick with Paul, if you don't mind.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

lol

do you sin? or are you perfect?

Your right, If your saved, you are workers of the law.

that is descriptive, not prescriptive

Paul makes it clear. as did moses. if you want to be saved by the works of the law. You have to be perfect.

Gal 3: 10 ;For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.
Deut 27: 26 ‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’ “And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’ ”

lets nor forget james

James 2: 10 - For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

its not even willful sin, it was a sin by accident..

 

[synergy]

I just answered the question.
If I CLAIM I HAVE FAITH.. but I do not have works, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE ME
it would be better if it was written, can that CLAIMED FAITH save me
I answered the question iwth a yes or a no. and I explained my answer.
dude, if your going to talk to me, You need to learn to understand what i am saying. I am a little sick of being falsly accused by people who do not know how to read.
Most people would read this, and understand the answer is NO.

Thank you. That's all I asked for.

(James 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

Therefore, faith cannot save a man who has faith but does not have works. That's all I needed to know.

 

[GodsGrace]

amen, not of works

then saved by grace through faith is a misnomer

IF obeying Jesus is a misnomer...so be it.

I don't believe it is.
I believe Jesus gave us commands so we could obey them.


John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Which commands do YOU believe Jesus is speaking of?

You do not go to someone and say here, i give you this million dollar car as a gift of grace. all you have to do is take it and it is yours (through faith)

then tell them after they receive it, the4y must pay the million dollars. or they will lose it

Well, unfortunately EG....God gives us the million dollars but expects something in return.
He expects us to obey Him.

Jesus said:

Luke 11:28
28But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Thats a works based gospel. And rejects grace and rejects the sacrifice of Christ on he cross. And is no better than Judaism is or was.

If obeying Jesus is a works based gospel...then that's what we'll have to call it.

Unless it's You that doesn't seem to want to accept all of scripture but just pick out the verses you like.

Here's more:

Matthew 5:13
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how * can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
1. We are the salt of the earth.
2. But it can become tasteless.
3. It is no longer good for anything.
Like John 15:1-2 the branches that do not bear fruit are severed.

Let me guess. You mock judaism.. yet are you really any different?

The Jews practiced THE LAW.

We don't practice the Law.
We obey Jesus and it's not that difficult...


1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Not to stay saved.

because if they must do good works to stay saved, they are not really saved.. They are still trying to earn their salvation

Actually, Jesus DID teach that we are to MERIT our salvation....
IF we obey Jesus....we will be saved.

IF we do NOT obey Jesus....??

Sanctification is christian growth.

Justification is what saves us.. and gives us the ability to run the race of sanctification.

What does sanctification consist of EG?

It is open ended.

I am required to do good works to become more sanctified, to become more like christ. To run the race and do my part here on earth

I am not required to do good works to keep myself saved.

But what if you DO NOT do good works?
You are disobeying Jesus.
Are you still saved no matter what?

Are you still becoming like Jesus?
Are you still saved?

That would negate grace.

Here paul says it better than I can.. and he is more reliable and trustworthy than I am

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Paul is right of course...we cannot be saved by works.
However, Romans 11:6 is addressing a remnant that had remained from those of Israel that did not obey God.
The remnant had not bowed to Baal and God.
So God had kept a remnant, whom He chose by His Grace and not by their works.....

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
Romans 9:15

This has nothing to do with the commandments of Jesus and our obedience to those commandments.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Our salvation (those who are saved). Are saved, its a completed act.

How is it a completed act if I keep posting scripture that denies this?
You continue to post scripture that states we are not saved by works.
I AGREE.


What do you make of the verses that state that we are to do good works AND that state that salvation can be lost?

2 Peter 2:20-22 THIS happened to some that had been saved and went back into the world and became false teachers:
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

again, Paul says it best


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works. lest anyone should boast

I do believe I've posted this many times.
Has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

We're discussing AFTER salvation.

Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Again....we all agree that we are saved by faith and not by works.

This thread is about OSAS.
It's about obeying Jesus and what happens if we do NOT.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thank you. That's all I asked for.

(James 2:14) My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him?

Therefore, faith cannot save a man who has faith but does not have works. That's all I needed to know.

HE DID NOT HAVE FAITH

what part of CLAIMED FAITH do youi not understand?

what part of DEAD (NON EXISTENT OR NON LIVING faith,. do you not understand?

do you talk to people this way you meet in person? You must not have many friends if you do.