Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

Your sarcasm, insults and straw man arguments are of no use here and do not change the fact that you promote legalism/works-righteousness. I already thoroughly explained John 15 to you multiple times in various threads and I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine but sadly, you just don't have ears to hear.

You once said this to me below, which explains the very heart of your error when interpretating John 15 and it also explains why you don't properly teach the gospel.

"Good works are required to maintain your salvation.."

"THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life."

So obeying your Lord is legalism?

How in the world can you possibly justify obeying your Lord as legalism?



Obedience to Jesus Christ is righteousness.
Disobedience to Jesus Christ is unrighteousness.


Do you understand this? Please brother, tell me you understand this.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4


Obeying our Lord is the definition of love; loving God and loving our neighbor.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Please be reasonable.


Don’t you love our Lord?

Don’t you love His people?


Loving the Lord and loving people is not legalism.

 

[Darby]

But...Not if Jesus is their Shapard. He has conquered sin and death by His death and resurrection.

If you drive on the freeway you can get killed but if saved we go to “Abraham’s bosom.”

There are two types of people who call themselves Christian but do not produce the fruits of righteousness. One is the false Christian, the one who acts like a believer on the outside but on the inside they are of the devil – having the devil’s nature rule them. Examples of these are the false prophets and false teachers we are warned about in the New Testament.

Backsliders are the other group of people who call themselves Christians but do not produce the fruits of righteousness. They are positionally saved but are lost – separated from the Life of God in their hearts because they chose to walk away from It. God never walked away from them! And He never will walk away from any of us. Backsliders do not do the will of God. They do not submit to the lordship of Jesus Christ, however they genuinely prayed a salvation prayer from the heart by faith sometime in their past. These are positionally saved but they are not right with God. They have gone astray.

They are the lost sheep that Jesus goes after.

 

[GodsGrace]

I can give @mailmandan a "like" if I appreciate his post--that's my prerogative. I didn’t join this forum to be a follower or to join cliques.

Honestly, your posts come across as scattered and disruptive, and it’s tough to read them because they seem to lack a certain coherence and quality.

Non taggarmi più, sorella.

J.

But you love to exegete verses.

Your like let me know that you had read his post.
A good exegesis would have been nice.

No problem.

 

[Dizerner]

That is still true today. We seal windows and doors to keep the wind out. We seal letters to keep everyone out except the addressee. We seal our basements to keep water out. We even put a seal on our furniture to keep the dust from getting into the pores of the wood.

This is anachronistic.

Original seals were most often used on documents and easily broken.

They did not signify "an unbreakable bond," they signified ownership and authenticity.

Using "seal" like Gorilla Glue is an anachronistic ignorance of the original culture and context of an ancient word.

 

[Dizerner]

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit).

I respect A.T. Robertson's work. But all men are susceptible to their own bias, and Robertson's Baptist affiliation is no exception.

Robertson did not, and I repeat emphatically here, did NOT come to this conclusion from Greek grammar and syntax.

This passage says nothing about "two kinds of connections" that is total eisegesis and completely read in to impose the presupposition of OSAS he already held.

In fact, the passage itself makes a big point of describing all branches as IN CHRIST and on an equal starting field.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is anachronistic.

Original seals were most often used on documents and easily broken.

They did not signify "an unbreakable bond," they signified ownership and authenticity.

Using "seal" like Gorilla Glue is an anachronistic ignorance of the original culture and context of an ancient word.

I used to explain how Kings used seals when they declared edicts, for example.
But, yes, any declaration from a King or other ruler, could always be rescinded.
The seal was only to secure what WAS INSIDE.

IF we stay INSIDE (dwell) Christ, we will be saved.
But we are free to leave at any time,
as is taught by the NT.

And the King could rescind the edict.

Seems pretty simple to understand,
but some change meanings...even of scripture that is plain...
in order to uphold their own beliefs.

 

[Dizerner]

But, yes, any declaration from a King or other ruler, could always be rescinded.
The seal was only to secure what WAS INSIDE.

You're still using "seal" anachronistically without realizing it.

Scripture says it is the POWER of God that keeps us, not the seal.

who are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet. 1:5 NKJ)

Seal is authenticity and ownership.

 

[Ahar]

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God’s grace.

Christians might temporarily yield to Satan’s temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place!

Faith comes from God in the form of a gift.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(Ephesians 2:8).

Peter went on to be chief among the apostles!

The two biblical principles must be held side-by-side.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're still using "seal" anachronistically without realizing it.

Scripture says it is the POWER of God that keeps us, not the seal.

who are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Pet. 1:5 NKJ)

Seal is authenticity and ownership.

Right.

In my Italian bible it says:
Ephesians 1:13
SIGNED with the Holy Spirit.

Interesting.
At the time of the printing of the English bibles,,,,seals were being used.
Are you saying they weren't used at the time of Jesus??

 

[Johann]

I used to explain how Kings used seals when they declared edicts, for example.
But, yes, any declaration from a King or other ruler, could always be rescinded.
The seal was only to secure what WAS INSIDE.

I disagree with you and @Dizerner

Job 38:2 (NASB):
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?"

John 5:24 - Eternal Life Granted
Greek Text:

"Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὅτι ὁ ἀκούων τὸν λόγον μου καὶ πιστεύων τῷ πέμψαντί με ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται, ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν."

Translation (NASB):

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."



The key verb here is μεταβέβηκεν (metabebēken), translated as "has passed".

It is in the perfect active indicative form, indicating that the believer has already crossed over from death to life, and this status is permanent and ongoing.

There is no indication of reversibility; once transferred into life, the believer does not revert to death.

2. John 10:28-29 - Eternal Security
Greek Text:

"καγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου."

Translation (NASB):

"And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."



The statement "οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται" (they will never perish) uses a strong double negative (οὐ μὴ) to emphasize absolute impossibility.

The perfect tense is not directly in this verse, but the sense of irrevocability is clear: eternal life given by Christ cannot be undone.

3. Romans 5:1-2 - Justification and Peace
Greek Text:

"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως, εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ..."

Translation (NASB):

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..."



The verb δικαιωθέντες (dikaiōthentes) is an aorist participle, indicating a completed action, but the resulting state of justification is permanent.

Since it is God who justifies (Romans 8:33), the verdict is not reversible.

The peace (εἰρήνην) established between the believer and God is secured by the perfect work of Christ.

4. Ephesians 2:8 - Saved by Grace
Greek Text:

"Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον..."

Translation (NASB):

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."



The verb σεσῳσμένοι (sesōsmenoi) is a perfect passive participle, meaning "having been saved".

The perfect tense here indicates that salvation is a completed action with continuing results.

Salvation is not just a past event but a present reality for those who believe.

5. Colossians 3:3 - Hidden with Christ
Greek Text:

"ἀπεθάνετε γὰρ καὶ ἡ ζωή ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ Θεῷ."

Translation (NASB):

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."



The verb κέκρυπται (kekryptai), meaning "has been hidden", is in the perfect passive indicative.

This indicates that the believer’s life has been securely placed within Christ, and the hidden state continues permanently.

The union with Christ is secure and irrevocable.

6. Hebrews 10:14 - Perfected Forever
Greek Text:

"Μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκές τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους."

Translation (NASB):

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."



The verb τετελείωκεν (teteleiōken), meaning "has perfected", is in the perfect active indicative.

It signifies that Christ’s single offering has fully accomplished perfection for believers, with permanent results.

The phrase "for all time" (εἰς τὸ διηνεκές) reinforces the permanence of this perfection.

7. 1 Peter 1:5 - Kept by God’s Power
Greek Text:

"τοὺς ἐν δυνάμει θεοῦ φρουρουμένους διὰ πίστεως εἰς σωτηρίαν..."

Translation (NASB):

"...who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."



The verb φρουρουμένους (phrouroumenous), meaning "being kept", is in the present passive participle, emphasizing continuous action.

Although not in the perfect tense, the context shows that God’s ongoing protection secures salvation.


The New Testament consistently presents salvation as a completed, irrevocable act with ongoing results through the use of perfect tense verbs. These texts affirm that once a person is saved, the effects are permanent, secured by the power of God and the perfect work of Christ.

Don't prove ME wrong, prove the Scriptures wrong @GodsGrace.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God’s grace.

Christians might temporarily yield to Satan’s temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place!

Faith comes from God in the form of a gift.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(Ephesians 2:8).

Peter went on to be chief among the apostles!

The two biblical principles must be held side-by-side.

Faith is a gift...but for anyone that wants it.
Not just for a lucky few.

If we yield to temptations by satan to excess, then we are doing what John said not to do...


1 John 3:9
9 No * one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot * sin, because he is born of God.


No one who is born of God practices sin...
If one practices sin...is he still born of God??

 

[Ahar]

Faith is a gift...but for anyone that wants it.
Not just for a lucky few.

Then what do you do with part?

"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Seems to me that overrides anyone that wants it.

 

[Dizerner]

The New Testament consistently presents salvation as a completed, irrevocable act with ongoing results through the use of perfect tense verbs. These texts affirm that once a person is saved, the effects are permanent, secured by the power of God and the perfect work of Christ. Don't prove ME wrong, prove the Scriptures wrong.

Refutation of the "Eternal Security" Argument Based on Greek Verb Tenses​

The argument presented relies heavily on perfect tense verbs in several New Testament passages to support the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." However, this interpretation oversimplifies Greek grammar and overlooks important contextual considerations.

Greek Verb Tenses: More Complex Than Presented​

The perfect tense in Greek does indicate completed action with ongoing results, but this doesn't automatically imply irreversibility. The perfect tense primarily emphasizes the present state resulting from a past action without necessarily guaranteeing permanence.

Counter-examples where perfect tense doesn't indicate permanence:​

1. Galatians 5:4 - "You have become estranged from Christ (κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ), you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε)." The verb ἐξεπέσατε is aorist tense but clearly describes believers who were in grace but have fallen from it.
2. Hebrews 6:4-6 - Contains perfect participles describing those who "have once been enlightened" (φωτισθέντας), "have tasted" (γευσαμένους), and "have become partakers" (γενηθέντας) - yet the passage warns these same people can "fall away" (παραπεσόντας).
3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - "For if, after they have escaped (ἀποφυγόντες - aorist participle) the pollutions of the world... they are again entangled in them and overcome..." This describes people who genuinely escaped but later returned to their former state.

Seven New Testament Verses Showing Conditionality of Salvation​

1. Matthew 10:22 - "But the one who endures to the end will be saved (ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται)." The future passive indicative verb σωθήσεται makes salvation conditional on endurance.
2. Romans 11:22 - "Otherwise you also will be cut off (ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ ἐκκοπήσῃ)." Paul uses a future passive indicative verb showing believers can be cut off if they don't continue in God's goodness.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - "By which also you are saved (σῴζεσθε - present passive indicative), if you hold fast (εἰ κατέχετε) the word which I preached to you..." Paul explicitly makes salvation conditional with the "if" clause.
4. Colossians 1:22-23 - "...to present you holy and blameless... if indeed you continue in the faith (εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει)..." Uses a first-class conditional statement implying continuation in faith is necessary.
5. Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold (ἐάνπερ) the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." The conditional particle ἐάνπερ ("if indeed") makes participation in Christ contingent on perseverance.
6. Revelation 2:10 - "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Presents the reward as conditional upon faithfulness until death.
7. John 15:6 - "If anyone does not abide in Me (ἐὰν μή τις μένῃ ἐν ἐμοί), he is cast out as a branch..." Uses a third-class conditional statement showing potential removal from Christ for those who don't remain.

Greek Conditional Statements​

Greek employs several classes of conditional statements that express different levels of probability or reality. These are significant for understanding the conditional nature of salvation:

1. First-class conditionals (εἰ + indicative): Assumes the condition is true for the sake of argument. Example in Colossians 1:23 - "if indeed you continue in the faith" - presents continuation as expected but still conditional.
2. Third-class conditionals (ἐάν + subjunctive): Expresses probable future action. Found in 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins..." - making forgiveness conditional on confession.
3. Fourth-class conditionals (εἰ + optative): Express remote possibility. While rare in the New Testament, they demonstrate the spectrum of conditionality in Greek grammar.

Specific Responses to the Cited Verses​

1. John 5:24 - While μεταβέβηκεν ("has passed") is perfect tense, it must be understood within John's conditional theology. John 15:6 from the same gospel shows that abiding in Christ is necessary.
2. John 10:28-29 - The security described is for sheep who "hear my voice and follow me" (v.27), making it conditional on continued following.
3. Romans 5:1-2 - The peace with God comes through justification by faith, but Romans 11:20-22 shows believers can be "cut off" if they don't continue in faith.
4. Ephesians 2:8 - The perfect passive participle σεσῳσμένοι must be read alongside Ephesians 5:5-7 which warns that the immoral have no inheritance in Christ's kingdom.
5. Colossians 3:3 - This verse cannot be isolated from Colossians 1:23 which makes presentation before God conditional on continuing in faith.
6. Hebrews 10:14 - The same letter contains some of the strongest warnings against apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29), showing the author did not intend this verse to teach unconditional security.
7. 1 Peter 1:5 - The "being kept" (φρουρουμένους) is "through faith" - making faith the condition for divine protection.

The Greek grammatical evidence, when examined comprehensively, does not support the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, but rather presents salvation as conditional upon continuing faith and obedience.

 

[ProDeo]

John 5:24 - Eternal Life Granted
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 10:28-29 - Eternal Security
"And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

Two convincing verses.

The Parable of the Sower comes to mind.

Matt 13:18 “Hear then the parable of the sower:
Matt 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
Matt 13:20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
Matt 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
Matt 13:22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
Matt 13:23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

Since Jesus can not contradict Himself the 2 above verses are exclusively about those of the good soil, thus OSAS, else NOSAS.

Simple?

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Agreed

Studyman, or GB, your former name at Grace Centered, you and I have been around and around and generally you leave off after you have posted the same old arguments many times over, as I have said before that your bible knowledge is very limited to a certain portion/topics of God's word, getting you away from those, means that you generally high tail for the mountains, until every thing dies off ~ here you come again, saying the same old words over and over again, preaching the same lies as before.

Studyman, does the word of God oppose me eating a meat lovers pizza, as you think it does? Your rellgion is a mixture bewtween Jehovah Witnesses and SDA, very close! Even though you boast of not being part of today's religious movement, you actually are right in the middle of it.
I had two piece of sausages this morning with one pancake ~ did I sin against my God? You answer that, and let all know who you truly are~ and who they are dealing with.

Before the God of heaven, I love more humility, seeing pride lives in my flesh, a sin that I hate, but it IS THERE for sure.

I would prefer not to engage with you while you Mock God and His instruction in Holiness and Righteousness, right to His Face. I mean, surely you know HE can hear you, Yes? After all, He did say, and Peter acknowledged that His Words were not written for them, but for us, "To be Ye Holy, for I am Holy". Why don't you show us where this is written, instead of Mocking God.

You are free to mock God on your own time, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't do so in your replies to me.

Studyman, I AGREE, yet our works have not one iota to do with anyone inheriting eternal life, eternal life was secured for God's elect by Jesus Christ alone,period.
The Gospel is the power of God ~WHY? because therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith! The gospel shouts.....GRACE, GRACE to the sinner by Jesus Christ securing a righteousness for God's elect that they could not provide for themselves before God's law in order to enter into eternal life. If the gospel is preached as it should be preached, then no one who even think they they could contribute one thing in order for God to impart eternal life to them ~ eternal life is a free gift given to the elect sinner on the behalf of what Christ did for him. Add one thing to that and you are preaching a gospel based on WORKS. God has pronounced a curse upon all that preaches another gospel.

Well, I disagree with the religion you have adopted based on what is actually written.

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Why?

2 Cor. 5: 9 Wherefore we ((those who have Yielded themselves unto God, and their bodies as instruments of Righteousness unto God. ) labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10 For "we must all appear" before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according "to that he hath done", whether it be good or bad.

It looks like you might actually post scriptures for discussion and I am always eager to discuss every Scripture. So I will address the rest of your post later.

 

[Johann]

Refutation of the "Eternal Security" Argument Based on Greek Verb Tenses​

The argument presented relies heavily on perfect tense verbs in several New Testament passages to support the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." However, this interpretation oversimplifies Greek grammar and overlooks important contextual considerations.

Greek Verb Tenses: More Complex Than Presented​

The perfect tense in Greek does indicate completed action with ongoing results, but this doesn't automatically imply irreversibility. The perfect tense primarily emphasizes the present state resulting from a past action without necessarily guaranteeing permanence.

Counter-examples where perfect tense doesn't indicate permanence:​

1. Galatians 5:4 - "You have become estranged from Christ (κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ), you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε)." The verb ἐξεπέσατε is aorist tense but clearly describes believers who were in grace but have fallen from it.
2. Hebrews 6:4-6 - Contains perfect participles describing those who "have once been enlightened" (φωτισθέντας), "have tasted" (γευσαμένους), and "have become partakers" (γενηθέντας) - yet the passage warns these same people can "fall away" (παραπεσόντας).
3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - "For if, after they have escaped (ἀποφυγόντες - aorist participle) the pollutions of the world... they are again entangled in them and overcome..." This describes people who genuinely escaped but later returned to their former state.

Seven New Testament Verses Showing Conditionality of Salvation​

1. Matthew 10:22 - "But the one who endures to the end will be saved (ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται)." The future passive indicative verb σωθήσεται makes salvation conditional on endurance.
2. Romans 11:22 - "Otherwise you also will be cut off (ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ ἐκκοπήσῃ)." Paul uses a future passive indicative verb showing believers can be cut off if they don't continue in God's goodness.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - "By which also you are saved (σῴζεσθε - present passive indicative), if you hold fast (εἰ κατέχετε) the word which I preached to you..." Paul explicitly makes salvation conditional with the "if" clause.
4. Colossians 1:22-23 - "...to present you holy and blameless... if indeed you continue in the faith (εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει)..." Uses a first-class conditional statement implying continuation in faith is necessary.
5. Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold (ἐάνπερ) the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." The conditional particle ἐάνπερ ("if indeed") makes participation in Christ contingent on perseverance.
6. Revelation 2:10 - "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Presents the reward as conditional upon faithfulness until death.
7. John 15:6 - "If anyone does not abide in Me (ἐὰν μή τις μένῃ ἐν ἐμοί), he is cast out as a branch..." Uses a third-class conditional statement showing potential removal from Christ for those who don't remain.

Greek Conditional Statements​

Greek employs several classes of conditional statements that express different levels of probability or reality. These are significant for understanding the conditional nature of salvation:

1. First-class conditionals (εἰ + indicative): Assumes the condition is true for the sake of argument. Example in Colossians 1:23 - "if indeed you continue in the faith" - presents continuation as expected but still conditional.
2. Third-class conditionals (ἐάν + subjunctive): Expresses probable future action. Found in 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins..." - making forgiveness conditional on confession.
3. Fourth-class conditionals (εἰ + optative): Express remote possibility. While rare in the New Testament, they demonstrate the spectrum of conditionality in Greek grammar.

Specific Responses to the Cited Verses​

1. John 5:24 - While μεταβέβηκεν ("has passed") is perfect tense, it must be understood within John's conditional theology. John 15:6 from the same gospel shows that abiding in Christ is necessary.
2. John 10:28-29 - The security described is for sheep who "hear my voice and follow me" (v.27), making it conditional on continued following.
3. Romans 5:1-2 - The peace with God comes through justification by faith, but Romans 11:20-22 shows believers can be "cut off" if they don't continue in faith.
4. Ephesians 2:8 - The perfect passive participle σεσῳσμένοι must be read alongside Ephesians 5:5-7 which warns that the immoral have no inheritance in Christ's kingdom.
5. Colossians 3:3 - This verse cannot be isolated from Colossians 1:23 which makes presentation before God conditional on continuing in faith.
6. Hebrews 10:14 - The same letter contains some of the strongest warnings against apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29), showing the author did not intend this verse to teach unconditional security.
7. 1 Peter 1:5 - The "being kept" (φρουρουμένους) is "through faith" - making faith the condition for divine protection.

The Greek grammatical evidence, when examined comprehensively, does not support the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, but rather presents salvation as conditional upon continuing faith and obedience.

Your source please, before I will refute all-or most of your "arguments" @Dizerner.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I disagree with you and @Dizerner

John 5:24 - Eternal Life Granted
Greek Text:

"Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ὅτι ὁ ἀκούων τὸν λόγον μου καὶ πιστεύων τῷ πέμψαντί με ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ εἰς κρίσιν οὐκ ἔρχεται, ἀλλὰ μεταβέβηκεν ἐκ τοῦ θανάτου εἰς τὴν ζωήν."

Translation (NASB):

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."



The key verb here is μεταβέβηκεν (metabebēken), translated as "has passed".

It is in the perfect active indicative form, indicating that the believer has already crossed over from death to life, and this status is permanent and ongoing.

There is no indication of reversibility; once transferred into life, the believer does not revert to death.

2. John 10:28-29 - Eternal Security
Greek Text:

"καγὼ δίδωμι αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, καὶ οὐχ ἁρπάσει τις αὐτὰ ἐκ τῆς χειρός μου."

Translation (NASB):

"And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."



The statement "οὐ μὴ ἀπόλωνται" (they will never perish) uses a strong double negative (οὐ μὴ) to emphasize absolute impossibility.

The perfect tense is not directly in this verse, but the sense of irrevocability is clear: eternal life given by Christ cannot be undone.

3. Romans 5:1-2 - Justification and Peace
Greek Text:

"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως, εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν διὰ τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ..."

Translation (NASB):

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ..."



The verb δικαιωθέντες (dikaiōthentes) is an aorist participle, indicating a completed action, but the resulting state of justification is permanent.

Since it is God who justifies (Romans 8:33), the verdict is not reversible.

The peace (εἰρήνην) established between the believer and God is secured by the perfect work of Christ.

4. Ephesians 2:8 - Saved by Grace
Greek Text:

"Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον..."

Translation (NASB):

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."



The verb σεσῳσμένοι (sesōsmenoi) is a perfect passive participle, meaning "having been saved".

The perfect tense here indicates that salvation is a completed action with continuing results.

Salvation is not just a past event but a present reality for those who believe.

5. Colossians 3:3 - Hidden with Christ
Greek Text:

"ἀπεθάνετε γὰρ καὶ ἡ ζωή ὑμῶν κέκρυπται σὺν τῷ Χριστῷ ἐν τῷ Θεῷ."

Translation (NASB):

"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God."



The verb κέκρυπται (kekryptai), meaning "has been hidden", is in the perfect passive indicative.

This indicates that the believer’s life has been securely placed within Christ, and the hidden state continues permanently.

The union with Christ is secure and irrevocable.

6. Hebrews 10:14 - Perfected Forever
Greek Text:

"Μιᾷ γὰρ προσφορᾷ τετελείωκεν εἰς τὸ διηνεκές τοὺς ἁγιαζομένους."

Translation (NASB):

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."



The verb τετελείωκεν (teteleiōken), meaning "has perfected", is in the perfect active indicative.

It signifies that Christ’s single offering has fully accomplished perfection for believers, with permanent results.

The phrase "for all time" (εἰς τὸ διηνεκές) reinforces the permanence of this perfection.

7. 1 Peter 1:5 - Kept by God’s Power
Greek Text:

"τοὺς ἐν δυνάμει θεοῦ φρουρουμένους διὰ πίστεως εἰς σωτηρίαν..."

Translation (NASB):

"...who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."



The verb φρουρουμένους (phrouroumenous), meaning "being kept", is in the present passive participle, emphasizing continuous action.

Although not in the perfect tense, the context shows that God’s ongoing protection secures salvation.


The New Testament consistently presents salvation as a completed, irrevocable act with ongoing results through the use of perfect tense verbs. These texts affirm that once a person is saved, the effects are permanent, secured by the power of God and the perfect work of Christ.

Don't prove ME wrong, prove the Scriptures wrong @GodsGrace.

J.

Easy to prove you wrong.
Scripture is NEVER wrong.

We can start with this....
and there's plenty more.


Peter the chief of the Apostles taught:


1 Peter 1:5-16 NASB
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made * careful * searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow *.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."


Our salvation depends on OBEYING what we are taught in scripture.



Here is what Paul stated:

Colossians 1:19-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Paul teaches:

Verse 21: We were formerly alienated......lost.
Verse 22: We have been reconciled to God through Jesus.
Verse 23: IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and not moved away.
IF WE CONTINUE in the faith.
AND NOT MOVE AWAY from the hope of the gospel.
IF....


Here is what JESUS taught:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Some hear and RECIEVE the word with joy.
They BELIEVE FOR A WHILE...
but then FALL AWAY.


I tend to believe what Jesus teaches.

 

[GodsGrace]

Refutation of the "Eternal Security" Argument Based on Greek Verb Tenses​

The argument presented relies heavily on perfect tense verbs in several New Testament passages to support the doctrine of "once saved, always saved." However, this interpretation oversimplifies Greek grammar and overlooks important contextual considerations.

Greek Verb Tenses: More Complex Than Presented​

The perfect tense in Greek does indicate completed action with ongoing results, but this doesn't automatically imply irreversibility. The perfect tense primarily emphasizes the present state resulting from a past action without necessarily guaranteeing permanence.

Counter-examples where perfect tense doesn't indicate permanence:​

1. Galatians 5:4 - "You have become estranged from Christ (κατηργήθητε ἀπὸ Χριστοῦ), you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace (τῆς χάριτος ἐξεπέσατε)." The verb ἐξεπέσατε is aorist tense but clearly describes believers who were in grace but have fallen from it.
2. Hebrews 6:4-6 - Contains perfect participles describing those who "have once been enlightened" (φωτισθέντας), "have tasted" (γευσαμένους), and "have become partakers" (γενηθέντας) - yet the passage warns these same people can "fall away" (παραπεσόντας).
3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 - "For if, after they have escaped (ἀποφυγόντες - aorist participle) the pollutions of the world... they are again entangled in them and overcome..." This describes people who genuinely escaped but later returned to their former state.

Seven New Testament Verses Showing Conditionality of Salvation​

1. Matthew 10:22 - "But the one who endures to the end will be saved (ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται)." The future passive indicative verb σωθήσεται makes salvation conditional on endurance.
2. Romans 11:22 - "Otherwise you also will be cut off (ἐπεὶ καὶ σὺ ἐκκοπήσῃ)." Paul uses a future passive indicative verb showing believers can be cut off if they don't continue in God's goodness.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2 - "By which also you are saved (σῴζεσθε - present passive indicative), if you hold fast (εἰ κατέχετε) the word which I preached to you..." Paul explicitly makes salvation conditional with the "if" clause.
4. Colossians 1:22-23 - "...to present you holy and blameless... if indeed you continue in the faith (εἴ γε ἐπιμένετε τῇ πίστει)..." Uses a first-class conditional statement implying continuation in faith is necessary.
5. Hebrews 3:14 - "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold (ἐάνπερ) the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." The conditional particle ἐάνπερ ("if indeed") makes participation in Christ contingent on perseverance.
6. Revelation 2:10 - "Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." Presents the reward as conditional upon faithfulness until death.
7. John 15:6 - "If anyone does not abide in Me (ἐὰν μή τις μένῃ ἐν ἐμοί), he is cast out as a branch..." Uses a third-class conditional statement showing potential removal from Christ for those who don't remain.

Greek Conditional Statements​

Greek employs several classes of conditional statements that express different levels of probability or reality. These are significant for understanding the conditional nature of salvation:

1. First-class conditionals (εἰ + indicative): Assumes the condition is true for the sake of argument. Example in Colossians 1:23 - "if indeed you continue in the faith" - presents continuation as expected but still conditional.
2. Third-class conditionals (ἐάν + subjunctive): Expresses probable future action. Found in 1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins..." - making forgiveness conditional on confession.
3. Fourth-class conditionals (εἰ + optative): Express remote possibility. While rare in the New Testament, they demonstrate the spectrum of conditionality in Greek grammar.

Specific Responses to the Cited Verses​

1. John 5:24 - While μεταβέβηκεν ("has passed") is perfect tense, it must be understood within John's conditional theology. John 15:6 from the same gospel shows that abiding in Christ is necessary.
2. John 10:28-29 - The security described is for sheep who "hear my voice and follow me" (v.27), making it conditional on continued following.
3. Romans 5:1-2 - The peace with God comes through justification by faith, but Romans 11:20-22 shows believers can be "cut off" if they don't continue in faith.
4. Ephesians 2:8 - The perfect passive participle σεσῳσμένοι must be read alongside Ephesians 5:5-7 which warns that the immoral have no inheritance in Christ's kingdom.
5. Colossians 3:3 - This verse cannot be isolated from Colossians 1:23 which makes presentation before God conditional on continuing in faith.
6. Hebrews 10:14 - The same letter contains some of the strongest warnings against apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-29), showing the author did not intend this verse to teach unconditional security.
7. 1 Peter 1:5 - The "being kept" (φρουρουμένους) is "through faith" - making faith the condition for divine protection.

The Greek grammatical evidence, when examined comprehensively, does not support the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, but rather presents salvation as conditional upon continuing faith and obedience.

There are many more verses than the ones you've posted that support, without the shadow of a doubt, that salvation can be forfeited.

Now, why it bothers so many, only they can know.

I would suggest to those persons that they obey Jesus and do as HE intructed and stop trying to understand Greek.

Which no one here does.

Those that understand Greek do NOT post on forums.

 

[Johann]

Easy to prove you wrong.
Scripture is NEVER wrong.

We can start with this....
and there's plenty more.


Peter the chief of the Apostles taught:


1 Peter 1:5-16 NASB
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made * careful * searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow *.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven -things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."


Our salvation depends on OBEYING what we are taught in scripture.



Here is what Paul stated:

Colossians 1:19-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Paul teaches:

Verse 21: We were formerly alienated......lost.
Verse 22: We have been reconciled to God through Jesus.
Verse 23: IF we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and not moved away.
IF WE CONTINUE in the faith.
AND NOT MOVE AWAY from the hope of the gospel.
IF....


Here is what JESUS taught:

Luke 8:13
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Some hear and RECIEVE the word with joy.
They BELIEVE FOR A WHILE...
but then FALL AWAY.


I tend to believe what Jesus teaches.

I prefer to stick to what Scripture teaches rather than your perspective, sorella, and besides, you're going off topic.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then what do with part?

"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Seems to me that overrides anyone that wants it.

Ahar,,,,,Ephesians 2:8 lists 3 gifts.
GRACE
FAITH
SALVATION

Are you forced to accept any of those 3 gifts??