Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Johann]

People think mistakenly the only way to trust in grace is to remove free will. But the very act of trust itself is a decision of the will.

It is wise not to trust in ourselves, but it is also wise to pray earnestly as we trust in the Lord, and prepare seriously for our future.

Jesus said to Peter, "when you return to me," showing us two things: Peter really did leave Christ, and Peter returned of his own free will.

There is real security outside of OSAS, and no real security trusting only in OSAS. Let us do our part as we depend on God.

Here’s the point: human volition exists, but when it operates independently of Christ, it remains just that--human volition--unsanctified, unholy, driven by self and pride, and ultimately part of the process that must be sanctified and crucified.

J.

 

[Dizerner]

human volition exists

My heart is steadfast, O God, my heart is steadfast (Ps. 57:7 NKJ)

those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful (Rev. 17:14 NKJ)

 

[JLB]

Here’s the point: human volition exists, but when it operates independently of Christ, it remains just that--human volition--unsanctified, unholy, driven by self and pride, and ultimately part of the process that must be sanctified and crucified.

J.

Well said, sir.

 

[JLB]

There is no OSAS, it's a scam to just make believers more complacent in their walks.

"Do not be deceived."

Agreed!

 

[Johann]

hhh

 

[JLB]

I'm what folks would called "high or hyper" Calvinist, since we do not teach means in regeneration of sinners ~

So, I blaspheme God by saying that salvation is of pure and free grace without man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation?

I’m learning more about the differences between Calvinism, Reformed, and now Hyper Calvinism.

I had just kinda lumped everything under the OSAS crowd.

I have always just taken it one post at a time with people and found I agree on some things, and disagree on most.


I don’t like labels, such as Calvinist, or Catholic, or Pentecostal, or any other label, because it divides the Body of Christ into sections.

This is sin. It grieves the Holy Spirit.


If we name the name of Christ, then we are Christian’s; Follower’s of Christ, born again Christian’s.


With that being said, it’s up to each of us to choose what we believe by reading the scriptures and being led by the Spirit into all truth.


I would like to ask you a few questions so I can learn more about what hyper Calvinism believes, compared to Calvinism, and how these beliefs differ from Reformed Theology.


My question comes from your statement above that says…

• salvation is of pure and free grace without man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation

Question:

How is a person saved apart from hearing and believing the message of salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14

 

[Johann]

And thats not the only passage in the discussion. Who are those in Hebrews 6 or Galatians 3 ? Both Hebrews and Galatians are addressed to brothers/sisters- believers.

HEBREWS 5:11-6:12

Because of the use of the PRONOUNS "We/us" in Heb. 6:1-3, "those/them" in Heb. 6:4-8, and "you" in Heb. 6:9-12 and 5:11-12, I believe that two distinct groups are being addressed in chapter 6: believing Jews and unbelieving Jews worshiping in a synagogue together. Also, the Jewish (not Christian) nature of the basic doctrines of Heb. 6:1-2 must point to truths shared with Judaism. There seem to be three groups mentioned.
the author and his/her mission team ("we" and "us," Heb. 6:1-3,9; 5:11)
unbelieving Jews ("those," "them," and "they," Heb. 6:4-8)
the believing Jews ("you," Heb. 6:9-12 and 5:11-12)

There have been several theories about who is being addressed.
it is a hypothetical (which usually supplies an "if" in Heb. 6:6)
it refers to Jewish unbelievers
it refers to true apostasy (Jewish believers about to return to OT hopes and procedures instead of continuing faith in Jesus as the Messiah)
it refers to the first-century situation only (which understands the historical setting as a synagogue setting of believing and unbelieving Jews)
it refers to OT examples of unbelief, not current believers

The warnings of Heb. 6:1-12 must be related to the previous warnings to the Jewish believers
beware of being carried past the safe anchorage, Heb. 2:1
beware of willful unbelief (as OT Israelites), Heb. 3:12-19
beware of remaining immature believers, Heb. 5:11-14

The current debate in some segments of the church over "once saved always saved"; "saved, lost, and then resaved" and "once out always out" revolves around:
the use of isolated texts (proof-texting)
the use of logical deduction (priority of reason over Scripture)
the use of systematic theological grids (Calvinism, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, etc.)

There are numerous biblical examples of people with problems related to their faith, but there is no easy answer that covers them all.
believers become unfit for service
carnal Christians or lazy Christian leaders (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
baby Christians (Heb. 5:11-14)
disqualified Christians (1 Cor. 9:27)
unorthodox Christians (1 Tim. 1:19-20)
unfruitful Christians (John 15; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
false professions of faith
parable of the soils (Matt. 13; Mark 4)
fruits without personal relationship (Matt. 7:21-23)
false teachers (1 John 2:18-19; 2 Pet. 2:1-19)
possible apostasy (some examples, see full list in the Special Topic below)
Saul (OT)
Judas (NT)
false teachers (2 Pet. 2:20-22)
later interpreters (Revelation 22:19 )

Much to glean from.

J.

 

[JLB]

HEBREWS 5:11-6:12

Because of the use of the PRONOUNS "We/us" in Heb. 6:1-3, "those/them" in Heb. 6:4-8, and "you" in Heb. 6:9-12 and 5:11-12, I believe that two distinct groups are being addressed in chapter 6: believing Jews and unbelieving Jews worshiping in a synagogue together. Also, the Jewish (not Christian) nature of the basic doctrines of Heb. 6:1-2 must point to truths shared with Judaism. There seem to be three groups mentioned.
the author and his/her mission team ("we" and "us," Heb. 6:1-3,9; 5:11)
unbelieving Jews ("those," "them," and "they," Heb. 6:4-8)
the believing Jews ("you," Heb. 6:9-12 and 5:11-12)

There have been several theories about who is being addressed.
it is a hypothetical (which usually supplies an "if" in Heb. 6:6)
it refers to Jewish unbelievers
it refers to true apostasy (Jewish believers about to return to OT hopes and procedures instead of continuing faith in Jesus as the Messiah)
it refers to the first-century situation only (which understands the historical setting as a synagogue setting of believing and unbelieving Jews)
it refers to OT examples of unbelief, not current believers

The warnings of Heb. 6:1-12 must be related to the previous warnings to the Jewish believers
beware of being carried past the safe anchorage, Heb. 2:1
beware of willful unbelief (as OT Israelites), Heb. 3:12-19
beware of remaining immature believers, Heb. 5:11-14

The current debate in some segments of the church over "once saved always saved"; "saved, lost, and then resaved" and "once out always out" revolves around:
the use of isolated texts (proof-texting)
the use of logical deduction (priority of reason over Scripture)
the use of systematic theological grids (Calvinism, Arminianism, Dispensationalism, etc.)

There are numerous biblical examples of people with problems related to their faith, but there is no easy answer that covers them all.
believers become unfit for service
carnal Christians or lazy Christian leaders (1 Cor. 3:10-15)
baby Christians (Heb. 5:11-14)
disqualified Christians (1 Cor. 9:27)
unorthodox Christians (1 Tim. 1:19-20)
unfruitful Christians (John 15; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
false professions of faith
parable of the soils (Matt. 13; Mark 4)
fruits without personal relationship (Matt. 7:21-23)
false teachers (1 John 2:18-19; 2 Pet. 2:1-19)
possible apostasy (some examples, see full list in the Special Topic below)
Saul (OT)
Judas (NT)
false teachers (2 Pet. 2:20-22)
later interpreters (Revelation 22:19 )

Much to glean from.

J.

So let’s take the context of a sermon from Jesus and see if we can agree on what He is teaching by using His words.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The first point I would like to make is heaven rejoices when a sheep who was lost returns.

 

[ProDeo]

Much to glean from.

J.

Exactly.

 

[ProDeo]

So let’s take the context of a sermon from Jesus and see if we can agree on what He is teaching by using His words.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

The first point I would like to make is heaven rejoices when a sheep who was lost returns.

I liked your post because it's truth.

Hebr 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Hebr 6:5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebr 6:6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Hebr 6:7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God.

Also truth.

But that lost sheep remains lost.

 

[Johann]

Exactly.

I think we’re talking past each other rather than actually engaging in a conversation.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

I think we’re talking past each other rather than actually engaging in a conversation.

J.

Not according to me, I believe in OSAS with rare exceptions, I gave King Salomon as one of those exceptions, there are notable 3 books of him in Scripture and yet the Lord turned against him in the end of his life.

You might even want to consider Judas and why he was chosen.

You on the other hand believe there are no exceptions.

Or?

 

[Johann]

Not according to me, I believe in OSAS with rare exceptions, I gave King Salomon as one of those exceptions, there are notable 3 books of him in Scripture and yet the Lord turned against him in the end of his life.

You might even want to consider Judas and why he was chosen.

You on the other hand believe there are no exceptions.

Or?

--or what? Are you unsure re your salvation?
@mailmandan

John 10:28–29 (ESV)
"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

Key point: The believer's security is based on the power of Christ and the Father, emphasizing that no external force can cause them to fall away.

Romans 8:38–39 (ESV)
"For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Key point: Paul lists every conceivable force, affirming that none can separate the believer from God’s love, indicating permanent security.

Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Key point: The perseverance of the believer is grounded in God’s continued work, guaranteeing that what He started will be completed.

1 Peter 1:4–5 (ESV)
"To an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Key point: The believer's inheritance is secure and guarded by God's power, emphasizing that it cannot be lost.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (ESV)
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Key point: The Holy Spirit’s seal serves as a guarantee of salvation, emphasizing that the believer is securely marked for eternal life.

Maybe you should do a dispensational study, what happened BEFORE the cross and what happened AFTER the glorious resurrection of Messiah.

Where do you read in these verses and context that believers can "fall away?" You want more? Just ask, and you shall receive.

J.

 

[Selah]

I believe the lost sheep in Luke 15:4-7 is one of the elect. Jesus calls him a sheep, and a sheep belongs with his Shepherd; but this one got himself lost. Was this sheep deceived? Was he enticed by the evil one? Jesus goes after this one sheep who is lost because it belongs to Him, and He loves him, and He won’t rest until He finds him.

Selah

 

[Johann]

I believe the lost sheep in Luke 15:4-7 is one of the elect. Jesus calls him a sheep, and a sheep belongs with his Shepherd; but this one got himself lost. Was this sheep deceived? Was he enticed by the evil one? Jesus goes after this one sheep who is lost because it belongs to Him, and He loves him, and He won’t rest until He finds him.

View attachment 1878 Selah

If you don't mind me asking @Selah-are you leaning to Reformed theology?

J.

 

[Red Baker]

@JLB

How is a person saved apart from hearing and believing the message of salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross?

Greetings,

Your question is a question that any sincere believer would ask, and I thank you for the opportunity to answer for myself.

Not sure if you are a man or woman, so I will call you a child of grace, for now. Dear child of grace, we must learn to rightly divide the word of truth, something you obviously desire to do, or you would not be asking questions and seeking the truth, for which I commend you.

Save/saved/salvation are words used in different senses in the scriptures, which most folks only used them in one sense.....salvation from condemnation...the lake of fire, which is the second death. Those who do so, end up confuse on a few important truths, one of which you are not asking:

How is a person saved apart from hearing and believing the message of salvation of Jesus Christ on the cross?

The new birth, or being born again, is a work performed by the Spirit of God alone, apart from all means, the written word of God; a preacher; and man's own will,; since man is dead in tresspasses and sins, and needs the SAME POWER that resurrected Jesus from the dead to resurrect the sinner, who is also dead in sins, unable to hear, see, and believe the word of God, simply put, unable to do spiritual acts pleasing to God in his natural depraved flesh/heart he received from Adam. Proof text? No problem.

John 1:13​

“Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

This one verse ruled out, our own wills, since they are depraved and at enmity against God; also, it rules out the will of a man, or one brings the gospel message, since the person hearing the message is void of spiritual eyes, ears, and most of all an heart that is not a heart of stones, which all are that come from Adam.

I said, that regeneration of a sinner takes the SAME POWER that resurrected our Lord from the dead, and this is not my personal opinion, but teh very word of God, consider:

Ephesians 1:19​

“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”.........

Ephesians 2:1​

“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

Child of grace, read these scriptures again carefully, and may God open your understanding to them and you too will see that the new birth is a birth wherein God is the ONLY active person working and man is totally passive, in the new birth.

This truth is the only hope for the heathens who have never heard of Jesus Christ ~ it give hope to the feeble minded folks who are unable to process information like you and myself; it gives hope to folks dying before they are able to understand the gospel and be saved in a practical sense like you and myself are now doing.

We have examples of this new birth in the scriptures, which I may have time to go over once I come back from a very short trip later this morning.

In the meantime read these scriptures and tell me what you see:

Matthew 27:44​

“The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.”

Luke 23:39-43~"And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

What wonderful scriptures recorded for us to rejoice in! Selah.

 

[Selah]

If you don't mind me asking @Selah-are you leaning to Reformed theology?

J.

Nope.

 

[Selah]

Nope.

I will forever lean towards the Word of God. How about you?

 

[Johann]

Not according to me, I believe in OSAS with rare exceptions, I gave King Salomon as one of those exceptions, there are notable 3 books of him in Scripture and yet the Lord turned against him in the end of his life.

You might even want to consider Judas and why he was chosen.

You on the other hand believe there are no exceptions.

Or?

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Can Christians know they are saved (cf. 1 John 5:13)? 1 John has three tests or evidences.
Doctrinal (belief, 1 John 1:1,5,10; 2:18-25; 4:1-6,14-16; 5:11-12)
Lifestyle (obedience, 1 John 2:2-3; 2:3-6; 3:1-10; 5:18)
Social (love, 1 John 1:2-3; 2:7-11; 3:11-18; 4:7-12, 16-21)

Assurance is difficult because
often believers seek certain experiences not promised in the Bible
often believers do not fully understand the gospel
often believers continue to willfully sin (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 9:27; 1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 4:10; 2 Pet. 1:8-11)
certain personality types (i.e., perfectionists) can never accept God's unconditional acceptance and love
in the Bible there are examples of false professions (cf. Matt. 13:3-23; 7:21-23; Mark 4:14-20; 2 Pet. 2:19-20; 1 John 2:18-19, see SPECIAL TOPIC: Apostasy)

Believers' primary assurance is linked to the character of the Triune God
God the Father's love (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Characteristics of Israel's God [OT])
John 3:16; 10:28-29
Romans 8:31-39
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
Philippians 1:6
1 Peter 1:3-5
1 John 4:7-21
God the Son's actions
death on our behalf (i.e., Isaiah 53)
 (1) Mark 10:45
 (2) Acts 2:23
 (3) Romans 5:6-11
 (4) 2 Corinthians 5:21
 (5) Heb. 9:28
 (6) John 2:2; 4:9-10
high priestly prayer (John 17:12)
continuing intercession
 (1) Romans 8:34
 (2) Hebrews 7:25; 9:24
 (3) 1 John 2:1
God the Spirit's ministry
calling (John 6:44,65)
advocate ‒ John 14:16; 16:7
teacher ‒ John 14:26; 16:13; 1 John 2:27
intercessing, Rom. 8:26-27
sealing
 (1) 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5
 (2) Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:3
assuring internal witness
 (1) Jphn 15:26
 (2) Romans 8:16-17
 (3) 1 John 5:7-13
But humans must respond to God's covenant offer (both initially and continually)
believers must turn from sin (repentance, cf. Mark 1:4; SPECIAL TOPIC: Repentance [NT]) and to God through Jesus (faith)
Mark 1:15
Acts 3:16,19; 20:21; 26:20
believers must receive God's offer in Christ (see SPECIAL TOPIC: What Does It Mean to "receive," "believe," "confess/profess," "call upon"?)
John 1:12; 3:16
Romans 5:1 (and by analogy 10:9-13)
Ephesians 2:5,8-9
believers must continue in the faith (see SPECIAL TOPIC: Perseverance)

statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)
remembering that the goal of salvation is Christlikeness
Romans 8:28-29
2 Corinthians 3:18
Galatians 4:19
Ephesians 1:4; 2:10; 4:13
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3; 5:23
Titus 2:14
1 Peter 1:15

Assurance has become a denominalism issue--




John Calvin based assurance on God's election. He said that we can never be certain in this life.

John Wesley based assurance on religious experience. He believed that believers have the ability to live above known sin (cf. Romans 6).

Roman Catholics and the Church of Christ base assurance on an authoritative Church. The group to which one belongs is the key to assurance.

Most evangelicals base assurance on the promises of the Bible, linked to the fruit of the Spirit (cf. Gal. 5:22-23) in the life of the believer (i.e., daily Christlikeness).

SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE

Assurance -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

Apparent faith
Judas Iscariot, John 17:12
Simon Magnus, Acts 8:9-24
those spoken of in Matt. 7:13-23
those spoken of in the Parable of the Soils in Matthew 13; Mark 4; Luke 8
the "believing" Jews of John 8:31-59
Alexander and Hymenaeus, 1 Tim. 1:19-20
those of 1 Tim. 4:1; 6:21
Hymenaeus and Philetus, 2 Tim. 2:16-18
Demas, 2 Tim. 4:10
false teachers, 2 Peter 2:19-22; Jude 1:12-19
antichrists, 1 John 2:18-19

Fruitless faith
1 Corinthians 3:10-15
2 Peter 1:8-11
The unique situation of Hebrews, written to a synagogue of believing and unbelieving Jews (note esp. Heb. 5:11-6:8; 10:26-31; see Robert Glaze, No Easy Salvation and my exegetical notes online at www.freebiblecommentary.org

We rarely think about these texts because our systematic theology (Calvinism, Arminianism, etc.) dictates the mandated response.

Please do not pre-judge me because I bring up this subject. My concern is proper hermeneutical procedure. We must let the Bible speak to us and not try to mold it into a preset theology.

This is often painful and shocking because much of our theology is denominational, cultural, or relational (parent, friend, pastor), not biblical (see Special Topic: What Does It Mean to "receive," "believe," "confess/profess," "call upon"?). Some who are in the People of God turn out to not be in the People of God (e.g., Rom. 9:6).
 I would just add that perseverance is as crucial a NT doctrine as is assurance.
SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSEVERANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: ASSURANCE
SPECIAL TOPIC: CHRISTIAN ASSURANCE
 For a good discussion of this issue from an Arminian perspective (of which I am a part), see
Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, pp. 348-365
Robert Shank
Life in the Son
Elect in the Son
I. Howard Marshall, Kept By the Power of God

SPECIAL TOPIC: APOSTASY (APHISTEMI)

Apostasy -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

freebiblecommentary.org

So what are you getting at @ProDeo?

J.

 

[Johann]

I will forever lean towards the Word of God. How about you?

OK--so who are the elect? And is there an opportunity for the non-elect? And yes, Scripture should always be read and studied, rightly dividing the word of truth---

Johann.