Depraved, though not totally depraved.
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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Dizerner
Active Member
Lordship OSAS is a minor improvement over Free Grace OSAS, but keeps the same fundamental errors.
It denies actual free will after conversion and makes the warnings specifically addressed to Christians pointless.
I am not sure what you are asking.
Dizerner
Active Member
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Since when does a son stop being a son?
did their DNA get changed?
did their DNA get changed?
No I won't. Your question was poorly worded. Try again. This time spell it out clearly. What are you asking me?
@GodsGrace
Folk like you see certain sound bites that seemly would support their teaching, and leeching onto it, and running with it, regardless what the word of God teaches overall, for their heart has no desire for the truth, but, only to find seemly support for their own teachings like you have done with John 15.
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman"~We should understand from the Lord's words from this parable, that the union between Christ and believers is very close, and absolutely necessary for fruit bearing. He is "the Vine," and they are "the branches." That is the main reason Christ used the metaphor of the vine and the branches, that the branches draws its life/nourishment from the VINE and apart from abiding in the vine, that there's no possibility of producing any fruits that it should be producing by being in the vine. This is the main lesson we should draw from this parable used by Christ, not the reason why you think he spoke these words, which you so desperately desire to draw from in order to support your position that born again children of God can lose the free gift of eternal life given freely by God's grace to them on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Which false doctrine goes against the whole teaching of the gospel of Christ, whereby, Christ secured the gift of eternal life for God's elect for them by his obedience and righteousness, which life is "NOT" depended upon their faithfulness and obedience!
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~So, how should we understand the words of the Lord Jesus, If it is true, and IT IS, that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance? We can look at such scriptures as the parables of Matthew 13 and learn how to interpret scriptures as John 15. The scriptures are one cohesive whole, with each helping to interpret each other, so that, there's a perfect flow from one to another showing us THE TRUTH we are seeking for.
In every generation from since Christ's days upon the earth, men claiming to be part of the religion of the God of Abraham, who believed in Jesus Christ. In the last days, it will increase greatly, per Matthew 24. John the Baptist said:
John is revealing a truth taught throughout the scriptures that there's coming a day when God shall separate the chaff from the wheat (wheat and chaff closely resembling each other) which only the true reapers would know the difference. This baptism of fire will take place when the Spirit of God cast them into the LAKE of fire! The Pentecostals seeking the baptism of fire do not know what they are truly doing!
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~This great separation is yet in the future when God shall separate his children that indeed bear fruits, even though some thirty, some sixty and a few more and a few less for false professors who truly did not believe, but who loudly profess but in works and doctrine denied Jesus Christ.
How have you deny the Lord in doctrine? By rejecting and proudly attempting to teach against that christ's atonement was only for his people, not for every single person taht has ever lived~all that preached this lying doctrine are guility of 2nd Peter 2:1;
So, ask yourself I'm I denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ by going against the testimony of the scriptures? I say you are, but will leave the final judgment to God, who will not take lightly men corrupting his word concerning the redemption work by his Son Jesus Christ.
Earlier in John 13 he said this:
Judas the traitor, was still among them, so the Lord said correctly, but not all! In John 15:3 he said ye ARE clean....so no danger of them ever being cast in the lake of fire~that's not why we have John 15 recorded for us, but to exhort true believers that without Christ it would be impossible for them to bear fruit, so he was exhorting them to abide in him, teaching them the TRUE SOURCE of their strength, power, and fruit bearing, that would bring glory to God. True children of faith, look to Jesus Christ as their only source for the ability to bear fruits, acceptable unto God.
I'll stop with much more to say, but enough for now.
I quoted the whole parable, and a parable it is, which means: in interpreting it we must not forget the great rule which applies to all Christ's parables. The general lesson of each parable is the main thing to be noticed. The minor details must not be tortured and pressed to an excess, in order to extract a meaning from them. The mistakes into which Christians have fallen by neglecting this rule, are neither few nor small.
Folk like you see certain sound bites that seemly would support their teaching, and leeching onto it, and running with it, regardless what the word of God teaches overall, for their heart has no desire for the truth, but, only to find seemly support for their own teachings like you have done with John 15.
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman"~We should understand from the Lord's words from this parable, that the union between Christ and believers is very close, and absolutely necessary for fruit bearing. He is "the Vine," and they are "the branches." That is the main reason Christ used the metaphor of the vine and the branches, that the branches draws its life/nourishment from the VINE and apart from abiding in the vine, that there's no possibility of producing any fruits that it should be producing by being in the vine. This is the main lesson we should draw from this parable used by Christ, not the reason why you think he spoke these words, which you so desperately desire to draw from in order to support your position that born again children of God can lose the free gift of eternal life given freely by God's grace to them on the behalf of Jesus Christ. Which false doctrine goes against the whole teaching of the gospel of Christ, whereby, Christ secured the gift of eternal life for God's elect for them by his obedience and righteousness, which life is "NOT" depended upon their faithfulness and obedience!
The union between the branch of a vine and the main stem, is the closest that can be conceived. It is the whole secret of the branch's life, strength, vigor, beauty, and fertility. Separate from the parent stem, it has no life of its own. The sap and juice that flow from the stem are the origin and maintaining power of all its leaves, buds, blossoms, and fruit. Cut off from the stem, it must soon wither and die.
The union between Christ and believers is just as close, and just as real. In themselves believers have no life, or strength, or spiritual power. All that they have of vital religion comes from Christ. They are what they are, and feel what they feel, and do what they do, because they draw out of Jesus a "continual supply" of grace, help, and ability, and power. Joined to the Lord by the election of grace, and united in mysterious union with Him by the Spirit of grace, they stand, and walk, and continue, and run the Christian race. But every jot of good about them is drawn from their spiritual Head, Jesus Christ.
The union between Christ and believers is just as close, and just as real. In themselves believers have no life, or strength, or spiritual power. All that they have of vital religion comes from Christ. They are what they are, and feel what they feel, and do what they do, because they draw out of Jesus a "continual supply" of grace, help, and ability, and power. Joined to the Lord by the election of grace, and united in mysterious union with Him by the Spirit of grace, they stand, and walk, and continue, and run the Christian race. But every jot of good about them is drawn from their spiritual Head, Jesus Christ.
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~So, how should we understand the words of the Lord Jesus, If it is true, and IT IS, that the gifts and calling of God are WITHOUT repentance? We can look at such scriptures as the parables of Matthew 13 and learn how to interpret scriptures as John 15. The scriptures are one cohesive whole, with each helping to interpret each other, so that, there's a perfect flow from one to another showing us THE TRUTH we are seeking for.
In every generation from since Christ's days upon the earth, men claiming to be part of the religion of the God of Abraham, who believed in Jesus Christ. In the last days, it will increase greatly, per Matthew 24. John the Baptist said:
Matthew 3:10
“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.John is revealing a truth taught throughout the scriptures that there's coming a day when God shall separate the chaff from the wheat (wheat and chaff closely resembling each other) which only the true reapers would know the difference. This baptism of fire will take place when the Spirit of God cast them into the LAKE of fire! The Pentecostals seeking the baptism of fire do not know what they are truly doing!
"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away"~This great separation is yet in the future when God shall separate his children that indeed bear fruits, even though some thirty, some sixty and a few more and a few less for false professors who truly did not believe, but who loudly profess but in works and doctrine denied Jesus Christ.
Titus 1:16 (works)
“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”2 Peter 2:1 (doctrine)
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”How have you deny the Lord in doctrine? By rejecting and proudly attempting to teach against that christ's atonement was only for his people, not for every single person taht has ever lived~all that preached this lying doctrine are guility of 2nd Peter 2:1;
Jude 1:4
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”So, ask yourself I'm I denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ by going against the testimony of the scriptures? I say you are, but will leave the final judgment to God, who will not take lightly men corrupting his word concerning the redemption work by his Son Jesus Christ.
John 15:3
“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”Earlier in John 13 he said this:
John 13:10
“Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”Judas the traitor, was still among them, so the Lord said correctly, but not all! In John 15:3 he said ye ARE clean....so no danger of them ever being cast in the lake of fire~that's not why we have John 15 recorded for us, but to exhort true believers that without Christ it would be impossible for them to bear fruit, so he was exhorting them to abide in him, teaching them the TRUE SOURCE of their strength, power, and fruit bearing, that would bring glory to God. True children of faith, look to Jesus Christ as their only source for the ability to bear fruits, acceptable unto God.
I'll stop with much more to say, but enough for now.
@GodsGrace
2) Jesus Christ is the true vine.
3) They were NEVER truly a God called sheep. Consider:
5) God Almighty.
"This time RB ,,,,, I'm waiting on your reply."..........It has been sent, and there's more coming. You made a false accusation that I never answer my post, which is false, I never refused not to answer,...so, this time, you have others coming.
1) unbelievers posing as sheep, yet without fruits of the Spirit.
2) Jesus Christ is the true vine.
3) They were NEVER truly a God called sheep. Consider:
4) They are children of the Wicked one who sowed them among God's elect!
5) God Almighty.
"This time RB ,,,,, I'm waiting on your reply."..........It has been sent, and there's more coming. You made a false accusation that I never answer my post, which is false, I never refused not to answer,...so, this time, you have others coming.
Dizerner
Active Member
I guess you'd have to deny being a son of the devil at any point.
Since "DNA" can't change and all.
Or maybe interpreting biological analogies as hyper literal is just silly.
mailmandan
Active Member
In context, Matthew 8:12, outlines a key point about the inclusive nature of the kingdom of heaven and the importance of faith over lineage. Jesus states that while many from east and west will be invited to join Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom, many Jews the "sons of the kingdom" will be excluded and cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
This emphasizes that it is not just being of Jewish lineage that guarantees entry into the kingdom, but rather faith in Jesus that determines one's place. This verse is part of a larger narrative where Jesus has just healed a centurion's servant, despite the centurion's non-Jewish background. Jesus' statement highlights that faith, not ethnicity or lineage, is the key to salvation.
Again, "sons of the kingdom" here refers to the Jewish people, traditionally considered the chosen nation of God. Not sons/children of God by faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12; Galatians 3:26) who are sealed in the body of Christ until the redemption of the purchased possession. (Ephesians 1:13-14)
@GodsGrace
False statement! You of all people I would answer, since you have never presented a point that I thought I would have trouble addressing. You know much less than you think you do, which is generally the case with folks who believe as you do.
Dizerner
Active Member
The kingdom of God or heaven is a spiritual kingdom in the teachings of Jesus.
Literally one phrase before the kingdom is reference and is called the "kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 8:11 NKJ)
Your precommitment to your OSAS does not allow you to read the passage for what it says.
Johann
Active Member
In Matthew 8:12, the term "sons of the kingdom" refers specifically to Jewish people who presumed their lineage guaranteed salvation. Jesus challenges this notion by affirming that faith, not ethnicity, determines entry into the kingdom.
In contrast, other passages such as John 1:12, Galatians 3:26, and Ephesians 1:13-14 affirm that believers in Christ--whether Jew or Gentile-are the true sons and heirs of God, secured by faith and sealed by the Spirit. The difference lies in context: Matthew 8:12 addresses a Jewish expectation, while the epistles address the spiritual reality for all believers.
J.
Why twist my words?
I said I was a human being in need of a Savior, just like everyone else.
I didn’t say I was a morally good person.
Again I asked you a question several times, which you refuse to answer, why?
Do you believe Noah was Totally Depraved?
By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
@GodsGrace
I'm what folks would called "high or hyper" Calvinist, since we do not teach means in regeneration of sinners ~ neither do we teach infant baptism, an heresy that many of the reformers brought with them from the RCC/EOC. We do not teach covenant theology as many of the teach. For your information, I'm a Particular Baptist more like those from England during the time of Samuel Richardson (1640, etc.) whom I see much agreement with. So there, do with it as you may, it makes no difference to me.
So, I blaspheme God by saying that salvation is of pure and free grace without man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation? I believe this is what they called "the worm calling the snail slimy" .
Fran, learn the differences among though who teach unconditional salvation. Calvinism in its purest form believes and teach many things I do not hold to, and neither do others who believe as I do.
I'm what folks would called "high or hyper" Calvinist, since we do not teach means in regeneration of sinners ~ neither do we teach infant baptism, an heresy that many of the reformers brought with them from the RCC/EOC. We do not teach covenant theology as many of the teach. For your information, I'm a Particular Baptist more like those from England during the time of Samuel Richardson (1640, etc.) whom I see much agreement with. So there, do with it as you may, it makes no difference to me.
I see men from Augustine down through the churches history rising up and embracing me as a brother. Several well-known hymns were written by Calvinist: John Newton's Amazing Grace, the most famous of all; Rock of Ages~ by Augustus Toplady, the list are many. Not ashamed to be called a Calvinist, even though there are different beliefs among them.
Prove it~but, you must do better than you have thus done.
So, I blaspheme God by saying that salvation is of pure and free grace without man having an active part in his salvation from sin and condemnation? I believe this is what they called "the worm calling the snail slimy" .
Here is what John wrote in his epistles about remaining in Christ.
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24
This is what wrote about knowing Him which refers to having eternal life.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Or maybe we were children of the devil. but God adopted us as sons and daughters based on the son of his son.
when does the adoption end? When does the payment of blood end? Is it not sufficient to make us alive?
Johann
Active Member
Don’t lose your equilibrium, @Red Baker. Stay calm and respond thoughtfully. On other forums, someone making accusations like that-insinuating blasphemy or questioning your salvation-would likely be warned or even banned.
Stay strong in Christ Jesus, brother.
Johann.
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