Excellent Discussion on OSAS

Hindus are not saved and yet are Know as being " morally good people".

Hindus follow a rich and profound ethical framework rooted in Hinduism. They believe in acting in the right way, making choices that are helpful to everyone, and following concepts such as Dharma, Ahimsa, Karma, and Moksha. These virtues guide moral conduct and decision-making
 
Do you believe Noah was totally depraved?


Here is what the scripture says about Noah.

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7
Did I say anything about total depravity? Have you run away from CF?

Who were you before your born from above experience, according to Scripture?

J.
 
Sure... It explores the theme of God's relentless pursuit of the human soul, depicting the struggle between the soul's desire to flee and God's unwavering love and grace. It's a long Poem.
The Hound of Heaven
by Francis Thompson

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmed fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followed,
Yet was I sore adread
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside.)
But, if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of His approach would clash it to:
Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars;
Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o' the moon.
I said to dawn: Be sudden; to eve: Be soon;
With thy young skyey blossoms heap me over
From this tremendous Lover—
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!
I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
The long savannahs of the blue;
Or whether, thunder-driven,
They clanged his chariot 'thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o' their feet:—
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Still with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following Feet,
And a Voice above their beat—
"Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me."

I sought no more that after which I strayed
In face of man or maid;
But still within the little children's eyes
Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me!
I turned me to them very wistfully;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.

Come then, ye other children, Nature's—share
With me (said I) your delicate fellowship;
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning
With our Lady-Mother's vagrant tresses,
Banqueting
With her in her wind-walled palace,
Underneath her azured daïs,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.

So it was done:
I in their delicate fellowship was one—
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies.
I knew all the swift importings
On the wilful face of skies;
I knew how the clouds arise
Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;
All that's born or dies
Rose and drooped with; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the even,
When she lit her glimmering tapers
Round the day's dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine;
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
I laid my own to beat,
And share commingling heat;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's gray cheek.
For ah! we know not what each other says,
These things and I; in sound I speak—
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;
Let her, if she would owe me,
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
The breasts o' her tenderness:
Never did any milk of hers once bless
My thirsting mouth.

Though this poem is lengthy, its core is the relentless pursuit of the soul by God, portrayed as the Hound of Heaven. The imagery and language reflect the struggle between the soul's flight and the divine pursuit, emphasizing the persistent and unwavering nature of God's love despite human attempts to flee.

Beautiful, isn't it?

J.
 
A human being in need of a Savior just like everyone else?
Who were you before you were born again, according to Scripture?

This is not CF where you can dodge my questions friend-

J.
 
The Hound of Heaven
by Francis Thompson

I fled Him, down the nights and down the days;
I fled Him, down the arches of the years;
I fled Him, down the labyrinthine ways
Of my own mind; and in the mist of tears
I hid from Him, and under running laughter.
Up vistaed hopes I sped;
And shot, precipitated,
Adown Titanic glooms of chasmed fears,
From those strong Feet that followed, followed after.
But with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
They beat—and a Voice beat
More instant than the Feet—
"All things betray thee, who betrayest Me."

I pleaded, outlaw-wise,
By many a hearted casement, curtained red,
Trellised with intertwining charities;
(For, though I knew His love Who followed,
Yet was I sore adread
Lest, having Him, I must have naught beside.)
But, if one little casement parted wide,
The gust of His approach would clash it to:
Fear wist not to evade, as Love wist to pursue.
Across the margent of the world I fled,
And troubled the gold gateways of the stars,
Smiting for shelter on their clangèd bars;
Fretted to dulcet jars
And silvern chatter the pale ports o' the moon.
I said to dawn: Be sudden; to eve: Be soon;
With thy young skyey blossoms heap me over
From this tremendous Lover—
Float thy vague veil about me, lest He see!
I tempted all His servitors, but to find
My own betrayal in their constancy,
In faith to Him their fickleness to me,
Their traitorous trueness, and their loyal deceit.
To all swift things for swiftness did I sue;
Clung to the whistling mane of every wind.
But whether they swept, smoothly fleet,
The long savannahs of the blue;
Or whether, thunder-driven,
They clanged his chariot 'thwart a heaven,
Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn o' their feet:—
Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue.
Still with unhurrying chase,
And unperturbèd pace,
Deliberate speed, majestic instancy,
Came on the following Feet,
And a Voice above their beat—
"Naught shelters thee, who wilt not shelter Me."

I sought no more that after which I strayed
In face of man or maid;
But still within the little children's eyes
Seems something, something that replies,
They at least are for me, surely for me!
I turned me to them very wistfully;
But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair
With dawning answers there,
Their angel plucked them from me by the hair.

Come then, ye other children, Nature's—share
With me (said I) your delicate fellowship;
Let me greet you lip to lip,
Let me twine with you caresses,
Wantoning
With our Lady-Mother's vagrant tresses,
Banqueting
With her in her wind-walled palace,
Underneath her azured daïs,
Quaffing, as your taintless way is,
From a chalice
Lucent-weeping out of the dayspring.

So it was done:
I in their delicate fellowship was one—
Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies.
I knew all the swift importings
On the wilful face of skies;
I knew how the clouds arise
Spumèd of the wild sea-snortings;
All that's born or dies
Rose and drooped with; made them shapers
Of mine own moods, or wailful or divine;
With them joyed and was bereaven.
I was heavy with the even,
When she lit her glimmering tapers
Round the day's dead sanctities.
I laughed in the morning's eyes.
I triumphed and I saddened with all weather,
Heaven and I wept together,
And its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine;
Against the red throb of its sunset-heart
I laid my own to beat,
And share commingling heat;
But not by that, by that, was eased my human smart.
In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's gray cheek.
For ah! we know not what each other says,
These things and I; in sound I speak—
Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences.
Nature, poor stepdame, cannot slake my drouth;
Let her, if she would owe me,
Drop yon blue bosom-veil of sky, and show me
The breasts o' her tenderness:
Never did any milk of hers once bless
My thirsting mouth.

Though this poem is lengthy, its core is the relentless pursuit of the soul by God, portrayed as the Hound of Heaven. The imagery and language reflect the struggle between the soul's flight and the divine pursuit, emphasizing the persistent and unwavering nature of God's love despite human attempts to flee.

Beautiful, isn't it?

J.
Yes it is beautiful. But we Catholics believe they go to purgatory.

What are the references to purgatory in the Bible? Here is one of many.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 6;4

Purgatory is defined in Roman Catholic doctrine as a place or experience of suffering for the souls of sinners who are absolving their sins before going to heaven. Furthermore, entrance into Heaven demands this momentary suffering due to sins whose guilt has not been forgiven. Catholic doctrine goes on to say that only those who die in the state of grace but have not yet undergone the punishment of their sin can be in purgatory. Therefore, no one in purgatory will stay there forever nor go to hell.
 
Yes it is beautiful. But we Catholics believe they go to purgatory.

What are the references to purgatory in the Bible? Here is one of many.

For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
1 Peter 6;4

Purgatory is defined in Roman Catholic doctrine as a place or experience of suffering for the souls of sinners who are absolving their sins before going to heaven. Furthermore, entrance into Heaven demands this momentary suffering due to sins whose guilt has not been forgiven. Catholic doctrine goes on to say that only those who die in the state of grace but have not yet undergone the punishment of their sin can be in purgatory. Therefore, no one in purgatory will stay there forever nor go to hell.
I appreciate your response @Donald
-- I don’t hold to the creeds and dogmas of the Catholic Church.

Frater, non teneo symbola et dogmata Ecclesiae Catholicae.

God bless brother, and welcome to the forum.

Johann.
 
Ok, so does that mean you don’t agree with total depravity?
Let scripture answer for itself.

Ephesians 2:1 (ESV):
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins"

Verb: "were dead" (ἦτε νεκροί, ēte nekroi)

ἦτε (ēte): Imperfect, active, indicative, 2nd person plural of εἰμί (eimi) - "you were"

νεκροί (nekroi): Nominative, plural, adjective - "dead"

This verse highlights a past state of spiritual death due to sins, not necessarily implying complete incapacity to respond to God.


Colossians 2:13 (ESV):
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him..."

Verb: "made alive" (συνεζωοποίησεν, synezōopoiēsen)

συνεζωοποίησεν (synezōopoiēsen): Aorist, active, indicative, 3rd person singular of συζωοποιέω (syzōopoieō) - "he made alive together"

The aorist tense indicates a completed action: God bringing believers from spiritual death to life.

Romans 5:6 (ESV):
"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Verb: "were still weak" (ἔτι ὄντων ἡμῶν ἀσθενῶν, eti ontōn hēmōn asthenōn)

ὄντων (ontōn): Present, active, participle, genitive, plural of εἰμί (eimi) - "being"

ἀσθενῶν (asthenōn): Genitive, plural, participle - "weak"

This phrase suggests moral and spiritual weakness, not necessarily total inability.


While these verses describe a state of spiritual death or weakness, they do not explicitly teach the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity as an utter incapacity to respond to God. Instead, they indicate that God initiates spiritual life (quickening) in those who were previously spiritually dead. The verbs emphasize a past condition and the divine action of bringing life.

And before you ask-no, I don't believe regeneration precedes faith.

Third time now, who were you before you have been quickened?

J.
 
Let scripture answer for itself.

Ephesians 2:1 (ESV):
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins"

Verb: "were dead" (ἦτε νεκροί, ēte nekroi)

ἦτε (ēte): Imperfect, active, indicative, 2nd person plural of εἰμί (eimi) - "you were"

νεκροί (nekroi): Nominative, plural, adjective - "dead"

This verse highlights a past state of spiritual death due to sins, not necessarily implying complete incapacity to respond to God.


Colossians 2:13 (ESV):
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him..."

Verb: "made alive" (συνεζωοποίησεν, synezōopoiēsen)

συνεζωοποίησεν (synezōopoiēsen): Aorist, active, indicative, 3rd person singular of συζωοποιέω (syzōopoieō) - "he made alive together"

The aorist tense indicates a completed action: God bringing believers from spiritual death to life.

Romans 5:6 (ESV):
"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Verb: "were still weak" (ἔτι ὄντων ἡμῶν ἀσθενῶν, eti ontōn hēmōn asthenōn)

ὄντων (ontōn): Present, active, participle, genitive, plural of εἰμί (eimi) - "being"

ἀσθενῶν (asthenōn): Genitive, plural, participle - "weak"

This phrase suggests moral and spiritual weakness, not necessarily total inability.


While these verses describe a state of spiritual death or weakness, they do not explicitly teach the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity as an utter incapacity to respond to God. Instead, they indicate that God initiates spiritual life (quickening) in those who were previously spiritually dead. The verbs emphasize a past condition and the divine action of bringing life.

And before you ask-no, I don't believe regeneration precedes faith.

Third time now, who were you before you have been quickened?

J.


Brother, none of these scriptures have the term Total Depravity in them.


The scriptures indeed say we were dead in trespasses and sins.


But what none of them say is Total Depravity.


So again, I’m asking you to tell me what Total Depravity means to you.


I gave you some dictionary reference and synonyms but that may not be what you understand the term Total Depravity to mean.


Do you believe Noah was Totally Depraved?

Or are you going to continue to dodge my questions like you do at CF?


This is not CF where you can dodge my questions friend-

A human being in need of a Savior.

I wasn’t totally depraved I know that for sure.
 
Last edited:
Where does Matthew 7 state what you wrote above?
"Jesus tells them that He NEVER knew them. Why? They were never saved to begin with."
Jesus explains why....because they were LAWLESS.
Actually He said "You who practice Lawlessness". That is, Depart from Me you sinners. Sinners are not saved. Paul speaks to the Romans about those who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, and then thanks God for those who were no longer those people. Formerly. That is, they ceased to be that.
What you write above sounds very nice....
but it's not what scripture teaches.
It's very convenient to state that those that fall away were never saved to begin with.
NOWHERE does it state this.
Hebrews does a pretty good job of explaining apostasy.
There are many warnings in the NT, both by Jesus and the writers. to beware:

Romans 11:20-22
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited *, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22
Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
BUT to you KINDNESS IF you CONTINUE in His kindness...
otherwise YOU ALSO will be cut off.
We are to CONTINUE in God's kindness.
We are to continue to dwell with Him.
Paul is talking to humans about a very complex piece of theology. It isn't cut and dry. Paul doesn't know the hearts and souls of those he is writing to. His words enter that void of lack of knowledge as to the spiritual condition of his audience.
Actually, John is speaking of some gnostics that had infiltrated the group.
This was already happening when the Apostles were still alive.
Actually, I believe he was writing before the gnostic invasion, but this epistle was to strengthen the church against what was coming. The false teaching of these apostates may very well have only been gnosticism, but John is speaking of apostates who leave the church after false teachings, and by leaving the church show they were never a part of the church.
They were not of us....means they were not saved by faith.
But there are many verses that warn us to stay close to Jesus:
They were not of us means they were not believers. While they were "in" the church, they were not "of" the church.
2 Corinthians 11:2-3
2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.


Paul is worried that satan will lead astray some believers.
Surely this means that Paul believes that those saved CAN BE led astray.
Being led astray doesn't necesarrily mean loss of salvation. It could also be compromising the position of the church. Undermining the unity of the church. Divisions and splinters within the church that did happen back them. A messenger of Satan came behind Paul and was undermining all that he did.
Yes. They were saved in the first place.
There is absolutely no way to know that, unless you place yourself into the judgment seat of God.
What is the difference between eternal security and OSAS?
OSAS is tied to Easy Believism, which basically says that if at any point in your life, you made some sort of profession, with no care to how you live your life afterwards, you are saved, and... Once Saved Always Saved. You can dance with the devil in the pale moonlight, and leave him outside the gates of heaven as you enter in. You can live the full indulgent life of a sinner, and waltz right into heaven because, Once Saved, Always Saved. God can't do anything about it, because... Once Saved, Always Saved. The great Get out of Hell free card. It makes sense when one says it, but when you look at the baggage, OSAS is cancer.

Eternal Security is linked not to OSAS, but to Perseverance of the Saints, which may make more sense said as Preservation of the Saints. It is "of the Saints", not "by the Saints". It is a work of God in the life of the believer. "He who began a good work in you, will be faithful to complete it in the day of Christ Jesus." The idea behind Perseverance of the Saints is that since God is the "author and perfector of our faith", it is He who keeps us in the faith. John 6, Jesus will not lose a single one of those whom the Father has given to Him. And who are those? Ephesians 1: having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Christ Jesus. The elect of God.

The verse I like to think of is in Jude, because I believe the Bible is inspired. So if there is praise, or doxology given to God, it is God's words of Himself.

Jude 24-25 "24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."

Why would God bring praise upon Himself for being able to do something... He doesn't do? Does that make sense? If He is telling you He is able, isn't He telling you what He will do for you? The point is, since salvation itself is not of us, but of God, then our eternal security is also bound up in God. It is out of our hands. Think of salvation in this way. Doesn't God get to choose who HE wants to spend eternity with? I mean, what ground do we have to stand upon before Him that He didn't create for us to stand upon?
Surely you're speaking of Hebrews 6....

Who are the enlightened?
The lost?
Paul says WHO WERE ONCE.....
This means that they WERE once...but are no longer.

Paul states that they have shared in the HOLY SPIRIT.
Do UNBELIEVERS share in the Holy Spirit?
Do they PARTAKE of the Holy Spirit?


Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to
open
Who are the enlightened? Those who are going to church. However, just because you are going to church does not automatically make you a believer. However, being in the church is an enlightening experience, and they are still fellowhiping with true believers, and have thus tasted of the blessings God pours out on the church. They have only TASTED of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. They haven't entered into it. That is, they aren't saved. They are at the point that they have seen, "tasted", have partaken in what God has given the church, and, standing before God and the cross, fall away from that place of repentance/acceptance/salvation. The point of verse 6 is, if Jesus death was not enough for them, they cannot be renewed to repentance again. There is no other sacrifice. Once they have fallen away and truly rejected the gospel, it's over. The author of Hebrews is warning these "fence sitters" that if they fall away and ultimately reject, there is no salvation for them.

There are three groups in the intended audience of Hebrews. Those Jews who are born again believers, those who are not believers, and those who are sitting on the fence, knowing of Christ, but neither accepting or rejecting. This warning is for them, as it says elsewhere in Hebrews, not to neglect so great a salvation, and miss out.
 
@Red Baker

This time RB ,,,,, I'm waiting on your reply.
Please post John 15:1-2 and let me know who you believe is being cut off of the vine.
Please explain who/what the vine is.
Who is being cut off.
Why they are being cut off.
Who is doing the cutting off.

and anything else you'd like to add.

Please refer to these verses.
I'd appreciate a reply.
Usually you just put off replying and then never reply.

I believe it would be nice if you actually addressed my post
instead of answering with Kamala's favorite method:
A word salad.

Thanks.
 
Actually He said "You who practice Lawlessness". That is, Depart from Me you sinners. Sinners are not saved. Paul speaks to the Romans about those who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven, and then thanks God for those who were no longer those people. Formerly. That is, they ceased to be that.

YOU stated that Matthew 7:23 was referring to unsaved persons.
I stated that it does NOT.

I'm happy to see that you reread that verse and have understood it differently.
And I was addressing what JESUS said.
I believe when JESUS says somesthing, we don't need Paul to back it up.

No mention of being born again or not in Matthew 7:23.
What Jesus said is that the LAWLESS will not enter into heaven.
Those that practice LAWLESSNESS.


Hebrews does a pretty good job of explaining apostasy.
So you agree that a person could fall away from their faith?

Paul is talking to humans about a very complex piece of theology. It isn't cut and dry. Paul doesn't know the hearts and souls of those he is writing to. His words enter that void of lack of knowledge as to the spiritual condition of his audience.
What?
We have a complex theology?
It is not cut and dry?

What does this mean?
That we cannot know the truth?

Paul, in all of his writings, is explaining HOW TO GET TO HEAVEN.
He's explaining HOW TO LIVE
and
HOW NOT TO LIVE.

Actually, I believe he was writing before the gnostic invasion, but this epistle was to strengthen the church against what was coming. The false teaching of these apostates may very well have only been gnosticism, but John is speaking of apostates who leave the church after false teachings, and by leaving the church show they were never a part of the church.
The above is a bit confusing.
An apostate is one who belonged to the church and then left the church.
So, yes, a person could be a believer and then leave the faith/the church as you put it.

Gnosticsm was already in the church by the end of the first century....
which is when John wrote his gospel and letters.
You could easily check this out on the net.

John and Paul wrote about the coming incorrect teachings...
they knew it would happen because it was already starting when the Gentiles were being told
they had to be circumcised first before becoming Christian.
The Council of Jerusalem confirmed the theology regarding this particular practice.
More would come later on through the centuries.


They were not of us means they were not believers. While they were "in" the church, they were not "of" the church.
Agreed. But John was speaking of a specific group.
There are many warnings in his writings regarding persons that BELIEVED but then LEFT THE FAITH.

Many warning about holding on to the faith:
One verse that those that believe in OSAS cannot explain away:

Colossians 1:21-23
21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach -
23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.


Notice what is happening in the above:

Verse 21 The person(s) was alienated and hostile and engaged in evil deeds.....not a believer.

Verse 22 The person has be reconciled and can be presented to God holy and blameless.

Verse 23 The warning: IF that person CONTINUES in the faith.


The OSAS believers cannot exegete the above because it is impossible to misunderstand it.


A believer can NOT CONTINUE in the faith.
It is possible to fall away from the faith.


Being led astray doesn't necesarrily mean loss of salvation. It could also be compromising the position of the church. Undermining the unity of the church. Divisions and splinters within the church that did happen back them. A messenger of Satan came behind Paul and was undermining all that he did.
Nice idea army...but it won't fly.

Too many verses that state the opposite.
Astray means to leave something.....
Also, when did the church splinter more than after the reformation? NEVER.


Here is what astray means......
We cannot change the meaning of words to suit our incorrerct theology.



astray
/əˈstreɪ/
https://www.google.it/search?sca_es...2ahUKEwjz2qeRz6KNAxXYiP0HHZ5AGjEQ3eEDegQIOxAO
adverb

  1. 1.
    away from the correct path or direction.
    "we went astray but a man redirected us"

    Sinonimi:
    off target

    wide of the mark

    wide

    awry

    off course

    off track

    off the right track

    adrift

    off beam


  2. 2.
    into error or morally questionable behaviour.
There is absolutely no way to know that, unless you place yourself into the judgment seat of God.
Sorry army,,,,I don't know to what I was referring above and it's difficult to go back to my post since you waited so long to reply.

If I wrote something...it means I know it.
If you care to go back and look, I'll be happy to reply.

OSAS is tied to Easy Believism, which basically says that if at any point in your life, you made some sort of profession, with no care to how you live your life afterwards, you are saved, and... Once Saved Always Saved. You can dance with the devil in the pale moonlight, and leave him outside the gates of heaven as you enter in. You can live the full indulgent life of a sinner, and waltz right into heaven because, Once Saved, Always Saved. God can't do anything about it, because... Once Saved, Always Saved. The great Get out of Hell free card. It makes sense when one says it, but when you look at the baggage, OSAS is cancer.
So, you're agreeing with me?
Eternal Security is linked not to OSAS, but to Perseverance of the Saints, which may make more sense said as Preservation of the Saints. It is "of the Saints", not "by the Saints".

Oh. Well, I don't know where you're going with this.
Are you reformed in theology?

Are you saying God preserves the saved till their death?
If so, I'll post something from John Calvin himself.....he denies ANY security.

And...it would make all of scripture irrelevant if eternal securty was correct...
so, obviously, if the bible is correct, eternal security cannot be correct.

That would be a very big biblical conflict.


It is a work of God in the life of the believer. "He who began a good work in you, will be faithful to complete it in the day of Christ Jesus." The idea behind Perseverance of the Saints is that since God is the "author and perfector of our faith", it is He who keeps us in the faith. John 6, Jesus will not lose a single one of those whom the Father has given to Him. And who are those? Ephesians 1: having foreordained us to the adoption of children through Christ Jesus. The elect of God.
You're going to have to post some verses that support what you've stated above.

Plus, you'll have t explain Colossians 1, which I posted above.

Of course God is working in us to complete a work...
IF WE ALLOW HIM TO.

Do you also believe we do not have the free will to abandon God?




The verse I like to think of is in Jude, because I believe the Bible is inspired. So if there is praise, or doxology given to God, it is God's words of Himself.

Jude 24-25 "24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen."
Of course the entire bible is the word of God.

So how would YOU reconcile these two conflicting ideas??

I post verses that suggest salvation can be lost,,,,
including words of Jesus...

You post verses that SOUND like maybe we cannot lose our salvation.
What to do?

Why would God bring praise upon Himself for being able to do something... He doesn't do? Does that make sense? If He is telling you He is able, isn't He telling you what He will do for you?
Where does it state that God is forcing me to stay saved?
I haven't seen any such verse in all these years.


The point is, since salvation itself is not of us, but of God, then our eternal security is also bound up in God. It is out of our hands. Think of salvation in this way. Doesn't God get to choose who HE wants to spend eternity with? I mean, what ground do we have to stand upon before Him that He didn't create for us to stand upon?
You're reformed.
No.
God does not choose who gets to go to heaven.
Man chooses whether or not he wants to be saved.

Jesus died so whosoever believes in Him can have eternal life.
John 3:16

Christianity is NOT Calvinism.
Christianity has been around for over 2 thousand years.
Calvinism is a new invention of some MEN.

You believe sripture is the word of God?
Then I suggest you stick to scripture and not what some MEN taught.

Who are the enlightened? Those who are going to church. However, just because you are going to church does not automatically make you a believer. However, being in the church is an enlightening experience, and they are still fellowhiping with true believers, and have thus tasted of the blessings God pours out on the church. They have only TASTED of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. They haven't entered into it. That is, they aren't saved. They are at the point that they have seen, "tasted", have partaken in what God has given the church, and, standing before God and the cross, fall away from that place of repentance/acceptance/salvation. The point of verse 6 is, if Jesus death was not enough for them, they cannot be renewed to repentance again. There is no other sacrifice. Once they have fallen away and truly rejected the gospel, it's over. The author of Hebrews is warning these "fence sitters" that if they fall away and ultimately reject, there is no salvation for them.

There are three groups in the intended audience of Hebrews. Those Jews who are born again believers, those who are not believers, and those who are sitting on the fence, knowing of Christ, but neither accepting or rejecting. This warning is for them, as it says elsewhere in Hebrews, not to neglect so great a salvation, and miss out.
You're last paragrah is correct of course.
But I won't reply futher since you're not providing scripture.

Please do that or this is just talk.
 
2Tim 4:7 - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Written by one hero of faith, responsible for about half of the NT.

What do you mean Paul ?
 
Brother, none of these scriptures have the term Total Depravity in them.


The scriptures indeed say we were dead in trespasses and sins.


But what none of them say is Total Depravity.


So again, I’m asking you to tell me what Total Depravity means to you.


I gave you some dictionary reference and synonyms but that may not be what you understand the term Total Depravity to mean.


Do you believe Noah was Totally Depraved?

Or are you going to continue to dodge my questions like you do at CF?




A human being in need of a Savior.

I wasn’t totally depraved I know that for sure.
Really? You were a "morally good person" I guess--not a walking, spiritually dead person, in a state of alienation?

You were not depraved? How many times is depravity mentioned in Scripture?

Hebrew Verbs
חָלַל (chalal)

Meaning: To profane, defile, pollute.

Morphology: Verb, Qal, Perfect, 3rd Person Singular (masculine).

Usage: Often used to indicate moral corruption or desecration.

תָּעָה (ta'ah)

Meaning: To err, go astray.

Morphology: Verb, Qal, Perfect, 3rd Person Singular (masculine).

Usage: Denotes wandering morally or spiritually.

עָמֹק (amaq)

Meaning: To be deep, profound.

Morphology: Verb, Qal, Perfect, 3rd Person Singular (masculine).

Usage: Figuratively used for being deeply corrupted.

Greek Verbs
κακοποιέω (kakopoieō)

Meaning: To do evil, practice wickedness.

Morphology: Verb, Present, Active, Indicative, 3rd Person Singular.

Usage: Engaging in morally reprehensible acts.

διαφθείρω (diaphtheirō)

Meaning: To corrupt, destroy.

Morphology: Verb, Present, Active, Indicative, 1st Person Singular.

Usage: Connotes moral decay or perversion.

πονηρία (ponēria)

Meaning: Wickedness, evil.

Morphology: Noun derived from a root verb meaning to act wickedly.

Usage: A state of moral evil or corruption.

κακία (kakia)

Meaning: Malice, depravity.

Morphology: Noun derived from a root verb indicating moral badness.

Usage: A disposition toward moral wickedness.

ἀκαθαρσία (akatharsia)

Meaning: Impurity, uncleanness.

Morphology: Noun derived from a root verb meaning to be unclean.

Usage: Represents moral or physical impurity.

ἀδικία (adikia)

Meaning: Injustice, wrongdoing.

Morphology: Noun derived from a root verb meaning to act unjustly.

Usage: Involves conduct that deviates from righteousness.

ἀσέλγεια (aselgeia)

Meaning: Licentiousness, debauchery.

Morphology: Noun derived from a verb root indicating reckless immorality.

Usage: Suggests a lack of moral restraint.
These terms collectively outline the biblical concept of depravity, emphasizing moral corruption, wickedness, impurity, and unrestrained evil actions or dispositions.


Again, what was your state and disposition BEFORE you were born again?

J.
 
Last edited:
2Tim 4:7 - I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Written by one hero of faith, responsible for about half of the NT.

What do you mean Paul ?
Perseverance.

J.
 
Back
Top Bottom