Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Aaron]

@Aaron

Greetings Aaron,

You are on the right path to the truth, stay on there and trust God to give you more light as you need it form His word and HE WILL.

Aaron, our eternal (yes, eternal) salvation was "SECURED" by two immutable acts of God, his oath and promises, what more do we need? Our salvation from sin and condemnation was secured by the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ ALONE, period!

I challenge any person reading this post to go to Psalms 89 and prove me wrong. I posted those verses here: #119

Consider:

God made a promise to Abraham concerning Isaac and confirmed that promise with an oath, which we all know it is impossible that God can lie. We like Isaac are children of God's promises, not by any work that we have had an active paart in, for then it would no longer be by grace, but by works.

We are children of FREE GRACE, nothing from our flesh helped God secured our salvation, we enjoy eternal life by two immutable acts of God, do not listen to the children of the flesh who will persecute your position on FREE GRACE without the works of the flesh. They have nothing but the flesh to glory in.

This being said, we live AS CHILDREN OF LIGHT by walking in the light of God's word proving that we are indeed children of God on the behalf of Jesus Christ redemption work that he did for his people. We have not one thing to glory in except in the FREE MERCY of God toward us according to his will that he purposed within Himself.

Questions for anyone: What did Isaac do to be born a son of Abraham, what could he do to be unborn a son of Abraham? What is the different between Abraham's two son in Galatians 4?

I do not expect answers because I generally do not get them anyway. Like the Pharisees of old, they just go away and say...We cannot tell! Because they know their answers would expose their error.

Thanks for the encouraging words.

 

[Aaron]

Is GotQuestions.org Reformed?

https://www.

gotquestions.blog/gotquestions-reformed.html

Absolutely not. While we do not view covenant theology or amillennialism as heretical, we have strong and serious disagreements with both ...

 

[GodsGrace]

@Doug Brents

Doug, maybe he just got converted, you cannot judge his heart, and should not. I do not know any Calvinist that would do what is said here that they do. With me, I got converted shortly after I came to Christ, but made it known and never concealed my understanding ~ it landed me at home without a place to worship, which was okay with me.

LOL
What @Doug Brents stated happens all the time!

Tough to accept calvinist doctrine....
it has to be fed a little at a time,,,,

Do you know the story of the frog in the water?

 

[civic]

@Doug Brents

Doug, maybe he just got converted, you cannot judge his heart, and should not. I do not know any Calvinist that would do what is said here that they do. With me, I got converted shortly after I came to Christ, but made it known and never concealed my understanding ~ it landed me at home without a place to worship, which was okay with me.

No MacArthur did the same thing and it’s a trend now in the evangelical churches. After a few years they slowly start teaching their doctrines. There really of testimonies from pastors and elders on YouTube confirming this happened in their churches

 

[civic]

It’s better known as stealth Calvinism

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It’s better known as stealth Calvinism

this is an hour long. anything shorter?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But in reality I am more puzzled than anything else.

When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous. It seems to me that God's plan of salvation is a gift, a perfect gift. He makes it so that it works. He would not give us a defective gift now would He? No, He gives us eternal life.

Yes. it is the work of God.. we trust in the cross.. Not in the works we do. how good we are. or how many good deeds, as apposed to bad deeds we do

if it were left to us. and our worthyness. we all have sinned and fall short. even today. we are still falling short

 

[civic]

this is an hour long. anything shorter?

I’m sure there is I’ll have to search

 

[civic]

this is an hour long. anything shorter?

Here you go

Stealth Calvinism Tactics Link to Video​

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

His gift is not defective Aaron.
WE are defective if we abandon God.

we are defectibe whether we leave or stay.

How could you believe eternal security means OSAS?
When Paul warns us throughout all of his writings about FALLING AWAY...
LEAVING THE FAITH....FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT FOR THE PRIZE...etc.

Salvation is a gift. paul was fighting for a prize..

I am the one that is puzzled.

Jesus went to the cross for us.

Do WE have any responsibility at all for our salvation?

If you could save yourself. would not God have told us how?

Are we not to do the will of the Father?

Maybe we should have MORE respect for Calvary and give to God some gifts back
instead of thinking He did everything and we are to do NOTHING...as some teach.


Be doers of the word and not only hearers of the word.
James 1:22

But even if you work 23 hours of the day. the one hour you fail makes you unworthy.

if you keep the whole law. yet stumble ( we stumble on accident, not on purpose) you are guilty of all

The law keeps us in check if anything. Paul looked and saw he was the chief of all sinners.

Thats the way we should all see ourselves. especially the more we grow in christ. I know I have seen this in my own life..

 

[Blessed]

we are defectibe whether we leave or stay.

Salvation is a gift. paul was fighting for a prize..



If you could save yourself. would not God have told us how?

But even if you work 23 hours of the day. the one hour you fail makes you unworthy.

if you keep the whole law. yet stumble ( we stumble on accident, not on purpose) you are guilty of all

The law keeps us in check if anything. Paul looked and saw he was the chief of all sinners.

Thats the way we should all see ourselves. especially the more we grow in christ. I know I have seen this in my own life..

And How would you know when you had done enough good works? No eternal security in that scenario.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Here you go

Stealth Calvinism Tactics Link to Video​

I can see someone doing that. I would have asked the question differently.. Like asked his view on certain doctrines that calvinists believe. I think anyone tryign to get a job, calvinist or not would do whatever it takes to get a job

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And How would you know when you had done enough good works? No eternal security in that scenario.

you would not.

thats why it is so sad when people think we can lose salvation.

How good is good enough

 

[Blessed]

you would not.

that's why it is so sad when people think we can lose salvation.

How good is good enough

Only Jesus is Good. Jesus invites us to follow Him, the only means of doing good by God’s ultimate standard. Jesus describes what it means to follow Him—to be willing to give up everything, thus putting God first. When you consider that Jesus is drawing a distinction between man’s standard of goodness and God’s standard, it becomes clear that following Jesus is good.

 

[Biblelesson]

I like to slip into online forums and pretend to be a non Calvinist. But some how they always figure it out.

 

[civic]

I like to slip into online forums and pretend to be a non Calvinist. But some how they always figure it out.

I did that somewhere else as an incognito Arminian

 

[Blessed]

I'm glad the we don't take our self's to serious and can get a laugh in here and there.

“God has made laughter for me; Gn 21:6

Proverbs 17:22​

A joyful heart is good medicine

 

[civic]

I'm glad the we don't take our self's to serious and can get a laugh in here and there.

“God has made laughter for me; Gn 21:6

Proverbs 17:22​

A joyful heart is good medicine

Amen

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

I never said others did not, but will say few do, and leave it there. If that upsets you, so be it, the Pharisees were also easily offended at Christ's teachings.

It's rather disconcerting to hear someone say that others don't read scripture properly.
I am NOT offended at the teachings of Christ.
I believe what Jesus taught.

Perhaps Calvinists are since Jesus does not agree with them.

Matthew 15:12-14​

“Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.”

So now a verse on being offended?
How about addressing the questions I bring up instead?

Are you saying that WHO is the blind leading the blind?

I'd say, with much confidence, that it's John Calvin, who was blind...
leading the blind.

Also, once again, I'm not of the Reformed community of believers which shows just how little you truly understand the differences between Particular Baptist and the Reformed teaching of others.

Don't care RB.
Catholic is catholic...I don't care which rite.
Calvinism is calvinism, I don't care which division.

Except for some matter or other you all believe in doctrine that is not biblical.
T is not biblical.
U is not biblical.
L is not biblical.
I is not biblical
P is not biblical

Now, if you care to disucss THAT....I'm willing....
I'm not here to have a discussion that is YOUR opinion.

Post scripture and we'll discuss.

And I don't mean scripture telling me how upset the Pharisees were.

A huge difference between the two, you need to study up on the two, then maybe you would stop making false accusations. Calvin and Luther rejected my forefathers, even though we have respect unto them for their stance on the scriptures, more so on practical living then teachings on other subjects. Enough said, let us more one to more important truths.

Your forefathers believe what John Calvin taught.
OTHERWISE,,,you'd be agreeing with ME...
but you're not.

Ask yourself why.

I follow the NT first and foremost, since all doctrine in germ from from Genesis to Matthew is revealed clearly in the NT. If you have reference to the doctrine of unconditional election by grace alone through the redemption work of Jesus Christ, acting as our suetry, then I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, a product of apostle Paul's labor among the Gentiles, call me what you will, but I'm here to defend my teachings based upon the word of God, not men that were not inspired by the Holy Ghost.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION is not biblical.

And which men were not inspired by the Holy Ghost?
You mean...Luther, Knox, Zwigli, Calvin?

These are the MEN that you are following RB.
You are NOT following NT teaching.

If unconditional election is true....
then explain the following:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


WHO are those persons that can believe in Jesus and be saved?

Many more verses like that one if you need them.
One at a time will do.

Fran, trust the word of God, for me, the KJV which my forefathers trusted in. Those godly men mentioned by you, served their generation according to the light God was pleased to grant to them.

Wonder why God is not pleased to share with all men the same light.
He must surely be a God of confusion.

But the bible tells me He's not!

Now what?
And what does the KJV have to do with anything?

Call it luck or God's timely, let others judge:

Luck or God's appointed timely? I do not believe in luck, maybe you do.

I was being sarcastic.
Do you not understand sarcasm?

We don't need JOHN CALVIN to teach us heresy.

Why don't you believe Jesus instead?

You said: "Heretical means APART FROM MAINLINE CHRISTIANITY...." So wrong! Heresy is going not against mainline so-called Christianity but against the word of God, period! Christ went against the mainline religious teachings of his days, but he never departed from thus saith the word of Go ~ he lived by every word of God, and so do all of his children. I care less what the so-called mainline Christianity teach, which I assume you are including the great whore from Rome?

Find out what heresy means.
And even if it means going against the word of God...
it still applies to calvinism.

Matthew 7:13,14​

“Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

So where does it state ANY calvinist teaching in Matthew 7:13-14?

Seems to me like Jesus is saying to take the narrow road.
Doesn't sound to me like God is going to put anyone on there but they'll have to go by their own free will.

If you think I teach another gospel then just you and I go to Galatians 2:16-5:4 and let us see who is the guilty party, I'm ready any time you think you are.

Prove it, let us get started today, you start the thread and I'll be there.

Okay..... deal, I'll stop here and will come back and address John 15, looking forward doing so.

Am waiting on John 15.

In the meantime,,,your verses:

Galatians 2:16 and Galatians 5:4

2:16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no * flesh will be justified.
Are YOU under The Law?
I'm not and I don't know any Christian that is.
Surely you've picked the wrong verse.

But explain this really well:
Do we CHOOSE to be justified
or
Does God justify whom He will?


Galatians 5:4
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Did you not know that no one is justified by The Law?
Why are you posting verses about the Law?

What does the law have to do with God choosing who will be saved
or
decreeing everything that happens??


And if you want to know who is severed...
reply back re John 15:1-2
THAT will tell you who is severed.

 

[Johann]

I'm glad the we don't take our self's to serious and can get a laugh in here and there.

“God has made laughter for me; Gn 21:6

Proverbs 17:22​

A joyful heart is good medicine

Stay focused and promulgate the gospel of Christ Jesus @Blessed. Personally, I don't enjoy frivolous laughing and lighthearted emotionalism accompanied by emojis.

The Jews have a saying: "There is a time to laugh, and that time is not now."


The context of Genesis 21:6 (ESV)-"And Sarah said, 'God has made laughter for me; everyone who hears will laugh over me'"-is the birth of Isaac, the long-awaited son of Abraham and Sarah.

Earlier in the narrative, Sarah had doubted God's promise that she would bear a child in her old age, and even laughed when she overheard the angel's proclamation (Genesis 18:12). However, when Isaac is born, Sarah acknowledges that God has transformed her initial skepticism into joyous laughter. The name "Isaac" itself (יִצְחָק, Yitzchak) means "he laughs" or "laughter," reflecting both Sarah's earlier reaction and the joy of fulfillment.

This verse highlights the irony and reversal of Sarah's doubt, as her previous laughter of disbelief becomes a laughter of gratitude and amazement. It also shows God's faithfulness in fulfilling His promises despite human doubt. Sarah recognizes that her miraculous childbirth will be a cause for communal rejoicing, as others will share in her joy and marvel at what God has done.


The context of Proverbs 17:22 (ESV)—"A joyful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones"—is found within the broader collection of wise sayings attributed to Solomon, emphasizing the practical benefits of a positive and joyful attitude in life.

The proverb contrasts the effects of a joyful heart with a broken or downcast spirit. The phrase "good medicine" (טוֹבֵה רְפוּאָה, tovah r'fu'ah) metaphorically highlights how a cheerful disposition can promote physical and emotional well-being, much like a healing remedy. In contrast, a "crushed spirit" (רוּחַ נְכֵאָה, ruach neche'ah)—one burdened by sorrow or despair—has a detrimental impact, figuratively drying up the bones, which symbolizes a loss of vitality and strength.

This verse reflects the biblical understanding that emotional and spiritual health significantly influence one's physical condition. Ancient wisdom recognized that joy and contentment contribute to a healthy life, while persistent grief or depression can lead to physical ailments and a sense of lifelessness. The proverb encourages cultivating joy and maintaining a hopeful outlook as a means of sustaining personal well-being.


Hebrew Verbs (Old Testament)
צָחַק (tsachaq) - to laugh, mock, make sport of (Genesis 18:12; Genesis 21:6)

שָׂחַק (sachaq) - to laugh, play, rejoice (Proverbs 8:30; Judges 16:25)

גִּיל (gil) - to rejoice, be glad (Psalm 32:11; Isaiah 65:18)

שָׂמַח (samach) - to rejoice, be joyful, be glad (Psalm 97:1; Ecclesiastes 3:12)

רָנַן (ranan) - to cry out, shout for joy (Psalm 98:4; Isaiah 12:6)

עָלַץ (alatz) - to exult, be jubilant (Psalm 21:1)

עָלַז (alaz) - to rejoice, exult (Psalm 96:12)

עִלֵּז (illez) - to exult, be joyful (Psalm 68:3)

רָקַד (raquad) - to leap, dance (2 Samuel 6:16)

פָּצַח (patzach) - to break forth, burst into joy (Isaiah 52:9)

Greek Verbs (New Testament)
χαίρω (chairo) - to rejoice, be glad (Philippians 4:4; Luke 10:20)

ἀγαλλιάω (agalliao) - to exult, be exceedingly joyful (Luke 1:47; 1 Peter 1:8)

εὐφραίνω (euphraino) - to make merry, be glad (Luke 15:32; Acts 2:26)

γελάω (gelao) - to laugh (James 4:9; Luke 6:21)

θρηνέω (threneo) - to lament, mourn (used in contrast to joy, Matthew 11:17)

σκιρτάω (skirtao) - to leap for joy (Luke 6:23)

καυχάομαι (kauchaomai) - to boast, glory, exult (Romans 5:2)

σκιρτάω ἐν ἀγαλλιάσει (skirtao en agalliasei) - to leap with exultation (Luke 1:44)

ἐυλογέω (eulogeo) - to bless, speak well of (Luke 1:42; associated with joy)

πανηγυρίζω (panegyrizo) - to celebrate, be festive (Hebrews 12:22)


In both Hebrew and Greek, the concept of joy and laughter is often tied to divine acts of deliverance, fulfillment of promises, or expressions of worship. For example, Sarah’s laughter (Genesis 21:6) transitions from doubt to joyful acknowledgment, while the New Testament frequently associates rejoicing with the presence of Christ (Philippians 4:4). The nuanced use of these verbs can convey both spontaneous joy and deliberate rejoicing, as well as laughter as either joyous or mocking.

Just a thought, you don't read Messiah "cracking jokes" to anyone--did you? Like we tend to do?

Shalom brother.

Johann.