Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Dizerner]

Where ?

In the Bible... they are called "warning passages"... but I think you knew that and are playing dumb.

Romans 11, Hebrews 6 & 10, John 15.

But there are many, many more.

 

[civic]

In the Bible... they are called "warning passages"... but I think you knew that and are playing dumb.

Romans 11, Hebrews 6 & 10, John 15.

But there are many, many more.

None of those passages say those that leave were born again, saved or had eternal life.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Next

 

[mailmandan]

None of those passages say those that leave were born again, saved or had eternal life.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Next

Some folks not only disagree with OSAS but also seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote works salvation/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[civic]

Some folks not only disagree with OSAS but also seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome. I have found that ALL false religions and cults that promote works salvation/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

Ditto

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That's the point. There is no line. Once saved always saved. When you belong to Christ the Holy Spirit will guide you and direct you in the way you should go.

Hi Foster

When I was a kid, I never feared to lose the love of my parents… but I also knew that everything wrong I did had consequences, generally not pleasant ones.

Similarly, a person can live in the assurance of God’s love and eternal mercy, while understanding that bad choices lead to bad results.
The elephant in the room, I guess, is that the consequence people really fear is a permanent and definitive loss of God’s love and mercy… which means eternal pain in hell.
As a universalist, I believe that nothing I can do can make God stop loving me, yet every sin I commit has consequences.
So, all strong warnings and advice from the authors of the epistles in the NT, given to people who had believed in Christ and been baptized, have a lot of sense: it doesn’t matter how much “saved” a believer considers himself: he must not do X, Y and Z.

In my opinion, once the OSAS debate turns into an OLAL debate (Once-Loved-Always-Loved) things start looking clearer.

 

[Doug Brents]

None of those passages say those that leave were born again, saved or had eternal life.

1. "in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Heb 6:4-5)

It is very clear that this is speaking of those who are in the Church, saved, part of the body of Christ. Because all who are "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (the indwelling Spirit) are part of the Church. And you cannot taste the power of the age to come if you are not part of the Church.

So then, these who were in the Church and have fallen away, "For it is impossible, ... and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance..." (Heb 6:4, 6) cannot be restored to the Church. Notice that they cannot be "RESTORED". You cannot speak of "restoring" something that wasn't once there to begin with.

2. "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

Here again we see that anyone among us (part of the family/body of Christ) who falls away (becomes a sinner again) and is turned back (can't be turned back if they weren't first going along with us) will be saved from death (eternal death in Hell).

Both of these passages show clearly that these people were saved, were part of the body of Christ, were born again; but they fell away into unrepentant sin and were lost again.

 

[Bassnah]

All of Christ’s sheep are safe, and no one can pluck them out of the Father’s hand, and that no creature can separate the true believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. This is all true, praise God!

When Jesus saves you it's a done deal. We can't die in our sin because Jesus took away our sin, all of it, past present future.

Got? explains it better than I can:

In Colossians 2:13–14, Paul writes, “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross” (ESV, emphasis added). The word all means “any, every, the whole of.” Thus, all of our sins—past, present, and future—were nailed to the cross and completely forgiven (see Psalm 103:12 and 1 Peter 2:24).

In 1 John 5:13, the apostle says, “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life” (ESV, emphasis added). John wrote this epistle (or letter) to reassure believers of their eternal salvation, which is a present and future reality (John 3:16). But if only our past sins are forgiven, then we could not know that we are saved, and John would be a liar. John is not a liar (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1–4). Therefore, we know that our salvation is eternally secure. Our past, present, and future sins have been eternally forgiven (John 10:25–30).

In Hebrews 10:10, the writer says, “We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (ESV, emphasis added). Because of the blood of Jesus Christ, we have been “made perfect forever” (verse 14), God will remember our sins no more (verse 17), and “there is no longer any offering for sin” (verse 18, ESV). But if only our past sins are forgiven, then none of this is true, and we would stand condemned before God. Yet the writer of Hebrews clearly expresses that the sacrificial death of Jesus was offered once for all. Therefore, we know that the blood of Jesus covers our past, present, and future sins (1 John 1:7).

In 1 John 2:12, the apostle writes, “I am writing to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake” (ESV, emphasis added). Are only our past sins forgiven? No, all of our sins are forgiven! In the original language, the words translated “have been forgiven” refer to a past action that continues in the present. Simply put, believers are forgiven and remain forgiven: “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1–2, ESV). The word propitiation means “appeasement” or “satisfaction.” In other words, the sacrificial death of Jesus wholly appeases and satisfies God’s wrath against our past, present, and future sins. The condemnation fell on Him instead of on us.

The biblical evidence shows that Jesus died for our past, present, and future sins. If you are still uncertain, or if you are worried that you are not forgiven, then God wants to give you assurance today. The burden of sin is too heavy for you to carry (Psalm 34:8). Why not give it to Jesus? He will carry it for you (Matthew 11:28–30).

 

[mailmandan]

1. "in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Heb 6:4-5)

It is very clear that this is speaking of those who are in the Church, saved, part of the body of Christ. Because all who are "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (the indwelling Spirit) are part of the Church. And you cannot taste the power of the age to come if you are not part of the Church.

So then, these who were in the Church and have fallen away, "For it is impossible, ... and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance..." (Heb 6:4, 6) cannot be restored to the Church. Notice that they cannot be "RESTORED". You cannot speak of "restoring" something that wasn't once there to begin with.

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

CONTINUED..

 

[Doug Brents]

no creature can separate the true believer from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus.

Is the love of God in Jesus synonymous with salvation?

NO!!!

God loved us even when we were sinners (Rom 5:8).
God loved, and still loves, the whole world (John 3:16).
Jesus died for EVERYONE, not just the saved (1 John 2:2).

Thus, God will still love those who are sent to Hell, even as He is sending them there.

 

[mailmandan]

Doug Brents said: 2. "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

Here again we see that anyone among us (part of the family/body of Christ) who falls away (becomes a sinner again) and is turned back (can't be turned back if they weren't first going along with us) will be saved from death (eternal death in Hell).

Both of these passages show clearly that these people were saved, were part of the body of Christ, were born again; but they fell away into unrepentant sin and were lost again.

In regard to James 5:19-20, notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth.. turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

IF this person was a genuine believer, yet how do we know for sure this is the second death in the lake of fire? In Matthew 26:38, Jesus said: "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death, Rather, Jesus was talking about physical death, his human life. In Revelation 16:3, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died".

In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, (physical death) so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no second death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So, is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

 

[Doug Brents]

In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

He doesn't stop there. He says that they are partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the Heavenly gift. These things cannot happen to the casual passer by. They only happen to one who has been saved.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

There is only one way to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and to taste the Heavenly gift. It is to be indwelt by His Spirit. This is not simple empowerment, or the urging of the Spirit to believe the Gospel and accept Christ in baptism. This is to fully receive the Spirit and become a partner with Him.

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

You are straining to fit your doctrine into the text; twisting the Word to fit your preconception. Read what the Word says, and fit your doctrine to it. Mold yourself to His will. Quit trying to twist God down to fit in your little box.

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

Who are you to judge their repentance? God, through the Hebrew writer, says that they had partaken of the Spirit and then fallen away. They were in, and now they are out and cannot be returned to being in.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

Not genuine believers ANY MORE. They were once, but they fell away.

 

[Doug Brents]

In regard to James 5:19-20, notice - Brethren, if anyone "among" you wanders from the truth.. turns a "sinner" from the error of his way.. Some would argue that James says this one who turned from the truth was a "sinner," and was "among" but "not of" the Brethren, then he wasn’t previously saved. That fits 1 John 2:19 - They went out "from" us, but they were "not of" us..

One cannot "stray from the truth" if they were not on/in the truth to begin with.

In 1 Peter 3:20 "... God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, [psuche-souls] were brought safely (saved from drowning, physical death) through the water" by the ark (Hebrews 11:7).

"Soul" is rendered from the Greek word "psuche" and is also translated as "life". The word "psuche" is never translated as "spirit." In 1 Corinthians 5:5, we read - I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, (physical death) so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (no second death).

Jesus covered our sins in one way (Romans 4:7) by bringing forgiveness for all believers, yet sins can also be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: And above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."Where there is strife, there is hatred and unless love prevails, the strife will get worse. Love covers offenses and sins when a believer turns back from error.

So, is this wanderer a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored? For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

You misread James. He does not say that when you turn the person back to the truth you will save a body from death. He says you will save a soul from death. The soul does not die or cease to exist when the body dies. James is talking about saving the soul of the person (fallen brother) from death (spiritual death). That is the only death that is in view here.

 

[ProDeo]

What about King Solomon ?

1 Kings 11

 

[Doug Brents]

what about him?

 

[mailmandan]

One cannot "stray from the truth" if they were not on/in the truth to begin with.

You misread James. He does not say that when you turn the person back to the truth you will save a body from death. He says you will save a soul from death. The soul does not die or cease to exist when the body dies. James is talking about saving the soul of the person (fallen brother) from death (spiritual death). That is the only death that is in view here.

I already thoroughly covered all of this in my post.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Luke says they believe for awhile and fall away.

Only two ways to salvage that passage for OSAS:

1. It wasn't real belief, even though it calls it real belief.
2. Falling away is still saved, just falling to lesser rewards.

Neither one fits the context.

actually there is a third

The believed, but they did not have faith

Since they just believed, and was not assured of what they heard. the things of the world quickly took them away, because their faith was in the world.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Excellent point.

And Christ promised all who believe have eternal life.

No, He promised all who in faith recieve him, have eternal life.

many believe he was alive and lived, and maybe believed he was killed and rose.

but they have no faith in him

Yet we see the person falling away—an unsaved person has nothing to fall away from.

Yeah they do. if they have a gospel in their grasp that could save them, and walk away before that gospel takes heart and saved them because they repented.

then they fell away from what could save them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If our salvation depends on anything but the finished work of Christ on the cross, we are in trouble. Or, at best, we run the risk of being in trouble. If you and I have any part in maintaining our salvation, it will be difficult to live with much assurance. Hope, yes; assurance, no.

Yet John wrote an entire epistle to assure a group of people, people he was not even around to observe, that they were in fact saved:

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ.

amen

and it is this knowledge we have eternal life that keeps us going

If I do not believe I am eternally secure. then I must trust myself. not God

 

[Doug Brents]

I already thoroughly covered all of this in my post.

And still you missed the mark.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We should have as much confidence and assurance as we have commitment to Christ and no less.

We could always sin more than we did today—we have that free will, that is not taken away from us.

And so we see abiding in Christ is not throwing off all restraint and considering ourselves safe no matter what.

God's grace does ask things of us, and our confidence is in knowing God does not ask what we cannot do.

yes it does.

But nothing we could do in this life would cause God to forgive one sin. let alone the millions of sin each of us have sinned in our lifetime.

Thats why Gods grace is required for all of our lives, because we will NEVER meet Gods standard.. hence we will ALWAYS be in a state of Grace..

we can not lose something we can not earn