Excellent Discussion on OSAS

here we go. a guy focused on ISMS and not actually letting the person speak for himself.
You want to follow ISMS, feel free.
you want to talk to me, talk to me, do not put me under any ISMS
Your monergistic mindset is hissing and revolting against the truths I layed out for you.

You offered no counterargument to the fact that you possess a monergistic mindset.
Gods grace is clearly Gods mercy

the fact you are alive here talking to me is by Gods grace. because we all deserve to be burning in hell right now

when you realise what the word actually means, then maybe you will see
God's Grace is not just legalism. Stop being a legalist. God's Grace is everything He imparted to us, including our volition. So stop with your false dichotomies of Grace and obedience.
 
then paul is a liar
Jesus is a liar

I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2
in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.

Sent from my iPad
Notice all the highlighted action words that proves that we must make use of our God-Graced God-given volitions. That's where our obedience comes in. So stop with your Grace vs obedience false dichotomy.

Also, Jewish converts kicked the "works of the Law" habit 2000 years ago. You're barking up the wrong tree. It's time to catch up with history.
 
I do.

“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.”
—MATTHEW 22:37

Being a Christian is not about doing all the right things, following a set of rules, or adhering to certain rituals. Being a Christian is a matter of the heart. It is all about a relationship with the God of the universe and the Creator of all things. Relationship with God is an intimate, up-close-and-personal relationship with the One who knows me most—and loves me still.


Yes but we must actually see what God calls love.


Here is the biblical definition of love…


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

If you love Me, keep My commandments. John 14:15


If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 1 John 4:20

  • for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

We don’t love God one bit more than we love the least among us, the outcast, the homeless….
 
no I am defining your gospel
Faithg plus works
That's in line with James 2:24 which mentions faith and good works.
The cross was not enough,
The Atonement (the Cross) is complete.
He needs yuo to add your obedience if you want your sins forgiven in the end, and spend eternity with him.
Without belief and repentance there is no salvation. How can you possibly deny this fact?
 
Your monergistic mindset is hissing and revolting against the truths I layed out for you.
your stuck on monergism whatever that is.

I am stuck on the word of God. you want to talk to me talk to me.

You want to try to put me under some ism. I will stop conversation. because you are unable to hear a word I say.
You offered no counterargument to the fact that you possess a monergistic mindset.

God's Grace is not just legalism.
Grace is not legalistic at all..
Stop being a legalist. God's Grace is everything He imparted to us, including our volition. So stop with your false dichotomies of Grace and obedience.
I am not the one being a legalist my friend. Yet another one who does not even understand the term
 
Notice all the highlighted action words that proves that we must make use of our God-Graced God-given volitions. That's where our obedience comes in. So stop with your Grace vs obedience false dichotomy.
yes, action

recieve, believe, trust drink, eat

and what do we get when we do those things?
Also, Jewish converts kicked the "works of the Law" habit 2000 years ago. You're barking up the wrong tree. It's time to catch up with history.
lol. History?

lol you put to much credence in history

Lets just stick to the word. Jesus the same yesterday today and tomorrow

You want to take your anger against calvinism out on me, You are in the wrong place.
 
That's in line with James 2:24 which mentions faith and good works.
yet all the passage I just gave you contradicts this.

Your bible can not agree with itself
The Atonement (the Cross) is complete.
So is salvation. for those who recieve him in faith
Without belief and repentance there is no salvation. How can you possibly deny this fact?
once a person is saved. what more is there. are they saved or not?

and yuo know I do not deny this. Now your just doing as so many others do and falsely accuse

your on your own.. you just prove you can not hear a word I say. again because of your isms
 
we have been through this before

points 4 and 6 are a result of grace. Not in order to recieve grace

points 2 and 3 are reversed. You will not have faith until you first repent (from unbelief)

and point 5 belongs in point 4.

points 4 and 6 are the results of the totality of grace, repentance, faith and salvation

Wisdom is knowing how little we know.
-- Socrates

Know thyself.
-- Socrates

With reference to Luke 22:33

You will know yourself when life come after you, not now.
 
your stuck on monergism whatever that is.

I am stuck on the word of God. you want to talk to me talk to me.

You want to try to put me under some ism. I will stop conversation. because you are unable to hear a word I say.

Grace is not legalistic at all..

I am not the one being a legalist my friend. Yet another one who does not even understand the term
So you think that God's Grace is only God's Mercy. Where do you think our minds and volition come from if not from God's Grace to us? Everything that God has given us is part of His Grace. Your false dichotomy of Grace versus obedience is making you lose credibility amongst us.

Your attempt to force your terminology on us will not work. You have tried to change James' wording from "the Faith" (in the Greek) to "that Faith" and I called you out on that. It didn't work then and it won't work now. The sooner you realize that the better for you.
 
yes, action
recieve, believe, trust drink, eat
So that proves that we must make use of our God-Graced God-given volitions. That's where our obedience comes in. So stop with your Grace vs obedience false dichotomy.
and what do we get when we do those things?
Salvation.
lol. History?
lol you put to much credence in history
Lets just stick to the word. Jesus the same yesterday today and tomorrow
You want to keep barking against things that were given up 2000 years ago? You're really losing whatever credibility you have left.
You want to take your anger against calvinism out on me, You are in the wrong place.
Where did I mention calvinism in the post you're replying to? Your attempt to find shelter under this calling card of yours will not work.
 
yet all the passage I just gave you contradicts this.
False. Good works are not works of the Law.
Your bible can not agree with itself
So you think that it's the Bible's fault that it "cannot agree with itself". That's exactly what happens to whomever values their presuppositions above what the Bible clearly says. They sacrifice the words of the Bible on the altar of their presuppositions.
 
False. Good works are not works of the Law.
a work is a work is a work..anything you do to merit somethign is a work.

Paul said even works of righteousness (good deeds,) are not part of the salvation process. we are saved by Gods mercy..

if you see the word works, and automatically think it means works of the law. your as bad as a person who sees the word baptize. and automatically assumes water.
So you think that it's the Bible's fault that it "cannot agree with itself". That's exactly what happens to whomever values their presuppositions above what the Bible clearly says. They sacrifice the words of the Bible on the altar of their presuppositions.
The bible does agree with itself.

However. Your interpretation of many parts of the word causes the bible to contradict itself.
 
go back and read my posts. Been there done that..

Show me works in these verses..
John 6:27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal." 28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
 
a work is a work is a work..anything you do to merit somethign is a work.
False. It is possible to do charitable works and merit nothing in return.

(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.
Paul said even works of righteousness (good deeds,) are not part of the salvation process. we are saved by Gods mercy..
False. Paul associates doing good works with eternal life.

(Rom 2:6) who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
if you see the word works, and automatically think it means works of the law. your as bad as a person who sees the word baptize. and automatically assumes water.
False. It's you who can't see any difference between works of the Law and charitable works.
The bible does agree with itself.
First you said that "your bible can not agree with itself" and now you say it does? You're sounding incoherent. At least get your story straight if you are ever to be believed.
However. Your interpretation of many parts of the word causes the bible to contradict itself.
False. You're projecting your faults again, as evidenced by the verses I quoted.
 
We were not there and neither were you. What we do know is that Christianity was there, the true religion of Jesus Christ that follow basically what we have in the NT, yet, without question false brethren had begun to infiltrate the churches of the saints.
And the biggest false one of them all was Augustine, who was able to convince the church of some doctrine that did not exist in the NT and which YOU are following via John Calvin.

Jude 1:4​

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Right.
And WHO is denying Jesus more than YOU?
You make Him out to be
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST

Plus, we have the letters to the churches in Revelation 2,3, which reveals how the churches quickly became corrupt.
I see your history ends with Revelation.
Typical of those who know no church history.
Try studying up on some church history...it would do you well.

What we DO KNOW, that the Catholic/EOC with all of its man made doctrines/commandments is nothing like Paul and the apostles left the churches teaching; for we have the record in the scriptures of their doctrines and they are so far from what both of them teach. Both of them are more like teh Pharisees than NT teachings and Paul's epistles to the churches.
I do hope you're aware that the CC assembled the NT.
I do hope you know that they assembled the theology of the Trinity...
the hypostatic union...
the understanding of Adam and Eve...
the understanding of why good works are necessary...
the knowledge that OSAS is not found anywhere in the NT....
and so much more.

No denomination, the apostles of the Lord Jesus kept them at bay, but they STILL crept in, the devil sowed tares (his children) among the wheat, always has, always will, only to see the tares to totally take over just before the Lord comes.
Yes. And what could be more evil than stating that God is:
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFULù
UNJUST
I have enough, all I could endure, a lot of wasted precious time ~ that's why I know the RCC/EOC to be corrupt, by comparing them to the scriptures.
Try comparing John Calvin to the scriptures instead.
Now THAT is corruption !
No, I do not, they have their own problems, but so much less than RCC. The word of God is the only means of being saved from heretical beliefs.
Thankfully, a denomination put together the very NT that you speak of....
and it certainly wasn't the reformed/calvinsits, or any other denomination present today....
except the Catholic denomination, of course.
THAT denomination has been present from the beginning.
Unless you believe Ignatius of Antioch was lying as he wrote his letters on his way to be eaten by the lions in Rome.
Fran, you have your right to believe that to be so, I do not. RCC is the most corrupt form of false religion since the Pharisees of our Lord's day ~ and even more corrupt than the Pharisees in my opinion.
Why do you keep calling it the RCC?
Are you not aware that the R is a rite and not a denomination?

You are more than welcome to prove me wrong, no problem, but I'm sure you would have a task that is above your knowledge to do.
Well, then, RB,,,I won't even try.

Concerning the RCC teaching a true gospel, that speaks more of your lack of knowledge and the gospel that you trust in to be another gospel, if you think CC has an ounce of truth concerning the true gospel of Jesus Christ, you are in dire need of having your eyes open, and your need is above my power to help you, only the power of God can deliver you from such a strong delusion you are living under.
Your insults are so much fun to read.
You do this because you are UNABLE to reply in an intelligent manner...


I've posted John 13:35 a few times now,
but, alas, scripture means nothing to you.

If you're able to change the very nature of God...
it must be very easy to spew insults at members on this forum.
I'm coming back, since my dear wife is calling me for lunch. I DO want to come back and address more of your posts to me.
Can't wait.
 
@synergy

It is used in those two places in a totally different sense in which you teach, not even close, and any should be able to see this. You believe man works for his salvation, they preached against such a doctrine. Why are going to the Greek language to prove a point?

Mark 16:20​

“And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”

Not a word about they themselves working to secure their salvation and the new birth of sinners, which is what we are discussing when we speak of synergistic we are speaking of concerning regeneration.

We believe that the Lord must work through us as we teach/preach/witness to others to help them in their practical salvation, growing in grace and knowledge, yet we have not one thing to do with the salvation of sinners from sin and condemnation, that's God's work alone that he must perform.
It's hilarious how you backtracked on all your slanderings when you realized that the Apostles called themselves Synergists. You dared not call the Apostles "workmonger, seeking to add the works of the flesh". That's what always happens to all those who have no knowledge of Greek and blindly lead us into destructive doctrines.
I did not say one HAD to be born of water BEFORE they are born again, that's you adding to what I have said. John the Baptist was born again BEFORE he was born of his mother's womb. All I said was.... the born of water is our fleshly birth, nothing more! Learn to read what other believe, it will save you of embarrassment.

That's easy to do ~ and I have already. I'll find my post that I made a couple of weeks ago.
John 3:5 is an imperative and emphatic statement in its entirety. Notice the "unless" emphatic word. So to be born of water is imperative which Adam does not qualify for according to your water definition.

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I'm still hoping that you find it in your heart to allow Adam and Eve to enter the Kingdom of God.
 
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@synergy

I find it so disheartening at times to read how some corrupt the teachings of our Lord.
And also Paul,,,,who taught exactly what Jesus taught,,,,of course.

Man has made a mockery of God's word and cheapened the sacrifice of Jesus.

Am unable to post right now and am thankful for those on this forum that uphold what Jesus taught and what is written in the NT....
You, @JLB @ProDeo @Jim @MTMattie and others not mentioned that respect what the NT plainly teaches.
 
@synergy

I find it so disheartening at times to read how some corrupt the teachings of our Lord.
And also Paul,,,,who taught exactly what Jesus taught,,,,of course.

Man has made a mockery of God's word and cheapened the sacrifice of Jesus.

Am unable to post right now and am thankful for those on this forum that uphold what Jesus taught and what is written in the NT....
We're thankful for you too! You have put in a large effort defending what Jesus taught.
You, @JLB @ProDeo @Jim @MTMattie and others not mentioned that respect what the NT plainly teaches.
@civic included. I'm sure you meant to include him as your "others".
 
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