Ex-Free Willer

[civic]

Exactly. This is something that is lost entirely in Calvinism.

It is why I have often said that God is too smart to force someone to love Him. It is one of the reason that love without choice is not really Godly love.

ditto.

 

[Behold]

We are not in the same position as Adam was. Our nature is the result of what Adam did.

We are in a better position, then Adam, if we are born again, and not just water baptized and religious..

Let me show you why... @The Rogue Tomato ...

Jesus is the 2nd Adam.. And the Cross of Christ is where Jesus said...>"""IT....is finished"., and then He died.

So, .....What is the "IT"?............. The It is, = "The gift of Salvation", and "The Gift of Righteousness".

See, when God receives our Faith in Christ, He then GIVES to us.... "the gift of righteousness", and "the Gift of Salvation"....

Jesus gives us this... "All that believe in me, i give unto you, ETERNAL LIFE, and you shall never go to Hell, (perish).""

See all that?
That is God on the Cross, as Christ the Redeemer, bringing reconciliation between God and Man, = FOREVER. and EVER.

Original Adam didnt have access to the Blood of Jesus and the Cross of Christ.
We do....
And when are born again, we are restored to Spiritual Union with God, (as Adam had it before He lost it).... and the good news, is that this reconciliation between us and God, that removes all our sin.... is JESUS's Sacrifice. its ETERNAL reconciliation..

A.) Eternal life.. (is not temporary) and all the born again, have Eternal Life.

So, we are KEPT in eternal (LIFE) reconciliation with God, based on The Cross of Christ..

Read this verse.

1 Philippians 1:6

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Exactly since he was given a free will- free will is part of the image and likeness of God. And love requires being free to love without coercion or force but the freedom to love in return.

This is fallen human reasoning. The Bible, GOD'S OWN WORD, teaches election. I could post a thousand proof texts, but you'll always come back to "A loving God would not...". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.

 

[Behold]

It is not solely the result of Adam's sin. We definitely have a predisposition to sin but Adam did too. Adam was never crafted to be above sin.

Adam was made in the Image of God.

So, he was created sinless, and was to remain so...

He CHOSE the Apple., and that act of Rebellion, is "iniquity" is found in Him, exactly as it was found in LUCIFER, when He was in Heaven, before He was cast out.

 

[civic]

This is fallen human reasoning. The Bible, GOD'S OWN WORD, teaches election. I could post a thousand proof texts, but you'll always come back to "A loving God would not...". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.

Whosoever will let him come freely.

And I could post another 1000 more than you

He who has the most verses wins in your theology ?

If thats the case its a loosing battle for you since election and predestination are seldom used in the N.T.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Adam was made in the Image of God.

So, he was created sinless, and was to remain so...

He CHOSE the Apple., and that act of Rebellion, is "iniquity" is found in Him, exactly as it was found in LUCIFER, when He was in Heaven, before He was cast out.

You can believe that if you like. However, the proof you're wrong is found in the fact that Adam sinned.

There will come a day when God will change us. We will no longer be peccable. Capable of displeasing Him.

Exo 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

[Behold]

This is fallen human reasoning. The Bible, GOD'S OWN WORD, teaches election.

Election, is a Satanic theology, created by a terribly deceived person....., who could not comprehend that "foreknowledge".. .which is "God knows is all before it happens"... = is not the same as "God causing it all to happen".

See that?

John Calvinism, cannot COMPREHEND< that God Knowing all things before it happens, is not the same as God CAUSING it all, to happen next.

Notice the Bible, ... @The Rogue Tomato .. and other Readers....

It tells you that the Great Trib, is coming...right?
But that is not the NT CAUSING it to happen.......understand? That is the New Testament showing you, that it KNOWS what is coming next....

And that is God's Foreknowledge.. exactly. God's foreknowledge is prophecy written as foreknowledge.

And CALVIN, , could not understand that Fore-Knowing, is not Fore-Causing..

So, what this deceiver did, was redefine "foreknowledge of God", as "pre-destined", and then he wrote an entire Theology of Deception around that one simple misunderstanding of "foreknowledge".

 

[Behold]

You can believe that if you like. However, the proof you're wrong is found in the fact that Adam sinned.

Are you saying that God created Adam with sin in Him?

Where did God get the sin, that He "imputed" into Adam, When God is Holy, and Righteous, and without sin"?

 

[civic]

Are you saying that God created Adam with sin in Him?

Where did God get the sin, that He "imputed" into Adam, When God is Holy, and Righteous, and without sin"?

Everything God created was good. Mans freedom gave him the capability to sin by choosing it. In the same way the angels fell by choosing to sin and rebel against God.

 

[Behold]

Everything God created was good. Mans freedom gave him the capability to sin by choosing it. In the same way the angels fell by choosing to sin and rebel against God.

Exactly.

Even Lucifer was created sinless and Good, but He chose.....the wrong path... He was "lifted up within himself".. .He was PRIDE filled, and that is when "iniquity was found in Him"..... ="Sin", began.

There is no sin found in Heaven, so.... Jesus said...that Lucifer "fell as Lightning".out of God's presence.

That means QUICKLY, instantly, and its also regarding Satan = who is an "angel of Light".

He's this Light..... Luke 11:35

He is a Dark Light.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you saying that God created Adam with sin in Him?

Where did God get the sin, that He "imputed" into Adam, When God is Holy, and Righteous, and without sin"?

No. I said that Adam was peccable. Peccable means "having the capacity to sin". Adam was not made sinful.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Exactly.

Even Lucifer was created sinless and Good, but He chose.....the wrong path... He was "lifted up within himself".. .He was PRIDE filled, and that is when "iniquity was found in Him"..... "Sin", began.

Sin preexisted man. Sin entered the world.......

 

[civic]

No. I said that Adam was peccable. Peccable means "having the capacity to sin". Adam was not made sinful.

So we are all saying the same thing @Behold

 

[praise_yeshua]

So we are all saying the same thing @Behold

We often say the same things "differently".

Story of my life...

 

[civic]

We often say the same things "differently".

Story of my life...

Exactly.

Its why I say when someone tries to pit you against me I know better when it comes to Christology and the Trinity because I k now we are on the same page from past years of experience and dialogue between us and anti-trins.

I can go on record and say to someone thats not true because I know we think alike in those areas.

 

[Behold]

No. I said that Adam was peccable. Peccable means "having the capacity to sin". Adam was not made sinful.

Free Will makes us all "peccable", but, the born again, are "made free from sin"...so, that is eternally resolved, like this...

THE CROSS of Christ.

"God hath made Jesus to be sin.....for us'.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME.... ETERNAL....sacrifice for sin"..

 

[Behold]

Sin preexisted man. Sin entered the world.......

Sin was first found in Lucifer, who was cast out, and it came with Him.

His sin of Rebellion, is "iniquity that was found IN Him"..

This is the sin nature....

When Adam rebelled, and ate the Apple.... his rebellion, in him, became this.....

Jesus said..>"you are of your FATHER.... the DEVIL.... and the Lusts of YOUR FATHER, you will do"...

That's every unbeliever....that is the "adamic" nature, or the sin nature.

When we are born again, this "old man of sin".... is "crucified with Christ"., and we become a "new Creation"... "In Christ".

 

[TedT]

Exactly. This is something that is lost entirely in Calvinism.

It is why I have often said that God is too smart to force someone to love Him. It is one of the reason that love without choice is not really Godly love.

YES!...but
applying the doctrine of our free will to sinners makes the words of Jesus to be jibberish when He claimed all sinners are enslaved to sin, loving their sin more than the truth etc etc. Both the doctrine of our inability to save ourselves because of our enslavement and the doctrine that our lives are predetermined according to scripture also deny that sinners have no free will.

 

[Handaan]

The holy spirit Illuminating the gospel message is the beginning of the salvation experience. It's like throwing a life raft to a drowning man. No one enjoys the benefits of Christ’s saving life, death, and resurrection apart from the Holy Spirit. He is the vital bonding Agent, the glue of the gospel, securing sinners and making it possible for them to believe in Christ Jesus.

When you're in bondage to send you can still recognize the damage being done by your lifestyle. If you've ever done any prison ministry you may know what I'm talking about. A lot of inmates come to Christ during their incarceration because they recognize where sin got them. And it's easy for them to be moved by the Holy Spirit and understand the gospel. I've seen many of them become very strong Christians and turn their lives around.

Take Phil Aguilar for one. He was sentenced to 10 years and got saved during his incarceration at Chino state prison. After his release he started Set Free Ministries and that was 40 years ago. And set free still going strong.

 

[Diserner]

This is fallen human reasoning. The Bible, GOD'S OWN WORD, teaches election. I could post a thousand proof texts, but you'll always come back to "A loving God would not...". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that.

I would agree we don't naturally understand what Biblical love is, however it must mean something or it's a meaningless word.

God allows things we would personally consider unloving—another thing I agree with—because of our sin nature not understanding holiness.

However, where I draw the line is saying we cannot at all in any way define what God's love is or would do.

God did not tell us he is love, to tell us he is a "weoifhanoiwehf."

He wanted to communicate something real to us.