Eternal Security

[TibiasDad]

Saul said the Law is spiritual (Rom. 7.) Through the new birth so are we. We don't offer sacrifices according to tghe letter of the Law. We offer sacrifices according to the spirit of the Law.
Like this:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1.

I agree with this completely, but this is not what you have seemed to advocate by claiming we are under Torah! The spirit of the law is Deut. 6:4-5, to love God with all our being, (and our neighbor as ourselves.) It doesn’t require hair to be a certain length, or only certain foods on the menu. The males need not be circumcised in the flesh, but all believers must be circumcised in heart! That it the only thing that matters! Only then can we love as he has loved us! Only when we can truly love can the Spirit of the Law be fully met in us! (Rom 8:4)

Doug

 

[Doug Brents]

That's an incredible position to believe in.

So, Jesus taught His people the Torah, commanded obedience to their Torah only to months later die on the cross and "abolish" it?

No, not abolish, fulfill (very big difference).

Let's just say that Christian follows Christ. That a disciple follows their leader and teacher.
And those that don't follow their leader and teacher are not true Christian and disciples of Christ.
Well, that's as honest and biblical a response can get.
Incredible.

Incredible? No. That is exactly what Scripture says, you can read it for yourself. Jesus fulfilled the Torah, and in doing so removed the Torah as the covenant under which man lives. We are now under the New Covenant which is in Jesus, not in the Law, not in Moses, not in Abraham; but in Jesus Christ our Messiah.

 

[Doug Brents]

Case closed! "Once loved, ALWAYS LOVED!"

Even the lost are loved. God loved us all even when we were lost, and so He sent His Son to redeem us. Lost or redeemed does not change the quantity or the quality of the love with which God loves us. Yes, once loved always loved. But that has NOTHING to do with saved or not saved or fallen out of being saved.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's ridiculous. That's like saying the Vikings represent all Gentiles, including the Amish. That is utterly ridiculous. Stop embarrassing yourself. There were many more subsets of Gentiles throughout the land that you believe will be ethnically cleansed.

There were individual tribes living in the Promised Land. Canaanite refers to all of them in general in the land of Canaan. There were Amorites, Hittites, Jebusites, Hivites, Perizzites, and Gergashites. It's the same as saying Gentiles (non-Jews) were Italian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Canadian, Japanese, etc.
But when the Jews finally occupy their Promised Land God Himself will cleanse the land, like Joshua, of all Gentiles so that Israel possess the land all to themselves.
God Promised it. I believe it. That settles it.

I never said that "the Torah is abolished/obsolete and that you don't have to obey His commands". Stop making things up. Is that at all possible for you?

The Bible says that the Law was fulfilled by Christ.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

He also said not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Torah till all has been fulfilled.
All has not been fulfilled. Thus, the Torah is still active in the lives of God's people.
And God's people obey His Torah. If they don't, they will be excised and punished.

 

[jeremiah1five]

All must obey the moral law, but not the ceremonial law; the sacrificial sin offerings, grain offerings, the dietary laws. The Lord clearly told Peter that these were not required, in fact he was now commanded to eat the very things he was forbidden to eat prior to the vision. (Acts 10) In Mark 7:19, Jesus declares all food clean.

Who best knows what is good for God's people but God? The Torah is for God's people to obey and live under. You can eat Matza or French fries. You can eat animals with a cloven hoof or rattlesnake meat. But God's Torah is to be obeyed. Disobeying displeases God and the unsaved disobey God's Torah and are under judgment.
Where do you stand? Obedience to God's Torah or disobedience. It's your call. Blessed or cursed. No two ways about it. If you love me (Jesus) you will obey my commandments (Torah.) What you need do is find the spiritual application to God's Torah. It's doable. Especially now that believers are spiritual beings.

The Ten Commandments are always in force, and the singular law of “love thy neighbor” encapsulates all the Decalogue and ensures that all are kept! To love means you’re not stealing, lying, committing adultery or murder, or casting dishonor on your parents. To love God means he is first place in your priorities and worship is a primary means of honoring him. Those who claim these things are “obsolete” are in error; I have never said anything to that effect.

Then this would include the dietary Laws and the Social Laws and the Sacrificial Laws. Find the spiritual meaning of God's Torah and apply them and God is pleased. To overlook them places your life in peril.

We are under grace, not law! We are required to have circumcision of the heart, not the flesh! That is the evidence of a true member of God’s holy people!

The Clarion Call of the Gentiles! But a closer examination of what Saul meant when he wrote those words has to do with SIN. The whole context of the chapter is about SIN. Not salvation. Alone the Torah could not save. But now that the New Covenant was added then the Redemptive History of God concerning His people Israel comes into focus and now through the New Covenant the Torah does save.

Jesus called the Jewish leaders “whitewashed tombs” because they appeared to be righteous on the outside but were dead on the inside. They kept the law, just as Paul did, just as the rich young ruler, but they were not righteous, nor were they justified! Again, blameless does not mean justified! And it certainly does not in Phil 3:6. You have yet to cite a single lexical authority that supports your claims.

Doug

EVERYONE under the Torah was "KEPT" for a future day when the fulfillment of God's Torah can be found in the Son and the New Covenant can be realized.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:23.

Under the two preceding covenants Abraham and his seed (children of Israel) were ALL kept until the third covenant could be activated. And now that it has been activated ALL ISRAEL shall be saved.

When God applies the atonement to His elect people they are justified, found BLAMELESS. That's what Saul was saying that He was justified/blameless as a Hebrew of Hebrews and Pharisee of Pharisees. And since he was a Christian for about 20-25 years, I think his understanding of the application of both covenants is in view.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree with this completely, but this is not what you have seemed to advocate by claiming we are under Torah! The spirit of the law is Deut. 6:4-5, to love God with all our being, (and our neighbor as ourselves.) It doesn’t require hair to be a certain length, or only certain foods on the menu. The males need not be circumcised in the flesh, but all believers must be circumcised in heart! That it the only thing that matters! Only then can we love as he has loved us! Only when we can truly love can the Spirit of the Law be fully met in us! (Rom 8:4)

Doug

That's on the subject of love. God commanded saved people to love ONLY saved people. God never commanded His saved people to love the unsaved. That's giving that which is holy (God's love) to dogs and casting your pearls (God's word) to swine (unclean.)
What about the subject or obedience?
Or the subject of sacrifices, or atonement, or heave offerings or wave offerings or observing His Feasts? There's more to Christianity and OBEDIENT Christianity than love. It's such a narrow vision to wrap everything in love.
Wrap obedience in love. He said, IF you love me obey my commandments (Torah.)
That is, IF you love Him.

 

[Hosanna]

"Commandments of Jesus"​

The Commandments of Jesus must not be confused with the "Ten Commandments" in the Old Testament.
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments," (John 14:15, KJV).
As you study these commandments (orders) of Jesus it will become evident that God is not only the God of Grace, He is also the God of expectations.
Obeying the Commandments of Jesus will bring rewards. For example, “Ye must be born again” (Jn 3:7), is considered to be one of the Commandments of Jesus. Those who obey receive Eternal Life!
The Old Testament Commandments beautifully teach what God considers to be sin, but they require perfection, and no person has ever been perfect (good enough), so it can only bring condemnation.
However, Jesus, being the "Son of God" and therefore perfect, could and did live up to the requirements of the Old Testament Law, and by doing so was qualified to die in the place of all who would accept Him as their Savior.
There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (Rom 8:1). Jesus paid it all!

"The Greatest Commandment"
Jesus was asked: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments," (Matt 22:36-40, Amp).

"The Golden Rule"
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets," (Matt 7:12 NIV).

Although these Commandments of Jesus are not in numerical order as are the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament, most Bible Scholars agree that they are most assuredly the Commandments of Jesus. From trusting jesus.com

 

[Hosanna]

The Commandments of Jesus From the Four Gospels​

1. "When you stand praying, forgive"
"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins." (Mark 11:25-26 NIV)

2. "You must be born again"
"You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again." (John 3:7 KJV)

3. "Remain in Me and I will remain in you"
When you ask Jesus into your heart and He becomes your Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit lives in you, and you in Him. Here Jesus uses a grapevine to compare our relationship with Him. \

"Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me." ( John 15:4 NIV)

4. "Let your light shine before men"
"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven,"
(Matt 5:14;16 NIV).

5. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary"
"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison."
(Matt 5:25 NIV)

6. "Get rid of whatever causes you to sin"
"If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt 5:29-30 NIV)

7. "Do Not Swear at All"

"But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matt 5: 34-37, KJV)

8. "Do Not Resist an Evil Person"
(Turning the other cheek.)

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also," (Matt 5:38-39 NIV).

9. "Giving More than is Demanded"
(Going the extra mile)

"And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you,"
(Matt 5:40-42 NIV).

10. "Love Your Enemies"
"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous," (Matt 5:43-45 NIV).

11. "Give to Please God, Not to be Seen"
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven,"
(Matt 6:1 NIV).

12. "Pray Privately, Not to be Seen by Men"
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words," (Matt 6:5-7 NIV)

13. "This, then, is how you should pray"
"This, then, is how you should pray: " 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.'

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins," (Matt 6:9-15 NIV).

14. "Fast Without Fanfare"
"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full," (Matt 6:16 NIV).

15. "Do not Store up Treasures on Earth"
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also," (Matt 6:19-21 NIV).

16. "Do not Worry about Your Needs"
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?" (Matt 6:25-26 NIV). Commandments of Jesus

17. "Do not Worry about Tomorrow"
"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own," (Matt 6:34 NIV).

18. "Place God First"
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you," (Matt 6:33 NIV).

19. "Do not Judge"
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you," (Matt 7:1-2 NIV).

20. "Guard what is Sacred"
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces," (Matt 7:6 NIV).

21. "Ask, Seek, and Knock"
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you,"
(Matt 7:7 NIV).

22. "Care for Those in Distress"
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me," (Matt 25:34-36 NIV).

23. "Enter Through the Narrow Gate"
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it," (Matt 7:13-14 NIV).

24. "Watch out for false prophets"
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves," (Matt 7:15 NIV).

25. "Exercise Spiritual Power"
"He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness," (Matt 10:1 NIV).

"Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give," (Matt 10:8 NIV)."


26. "Do not Despise Childlike Believers"
"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven,"
(Matt 18:10 NIV).

27. "Do not Exalt Yourself"
"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant.

For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted,"
(Matt 23:8-12 NIV).

28. "Settle Disputes Between Believers in this Manner..."
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector,"
(Matt 18:15-17 NIV).

29. "Do not Oppose Other Christian Groups"
"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us," (Mark 9:38-40 NIV).

30. "Have Complete Faith in God"
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," (Mark 11:22-24 NIV).

31. "Do as the Good Samaritan Did"
"The expert in the law replied, 'The one who had mercy on him.' Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise,"
(Luke 10:30-37 NIV).

32. "Love One Another"
(This commandment of Jesus summarizes all the others.)

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you," (John 15:12 KJV).
33. "Do this in Remembrance of Me"
"The New Covenant"

"And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.'"

"In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you,'" (Luke 22:19-20 NIV).

34. "You Should also Wash One Another's Feet"

"Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet," (John 13:14 NIV).

35. "Be Merciful"
"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful,"
(Luke 6:36 NIV).

36. "Go and Make Disciples of All Nations, Baptizing Them"
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age," (Matt 28:19-20 NIV).

37. "Obey What I Command"
"If you love me, you will obey what I command,"
(John 14:15 NIV).

38. "You Must be Ready"
"You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him,"
(Luke 12:40 NIV). Commandments of Jesus

"A New Commandment"

"Jesus said, A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another just as I have loved you; you also are to love one another," (John 13:34).

By Samuel Mills

 

[jeremiah1five]

No, not abolish, fulfill (very big difference).

So, what does it mean to you?
If not "abolished" then the Torah is still active for God's people. Those are His Laws by which we are to live by and under. There are no other spiritual Laws for spiritual people out there to follow and obey.

Incredible? No. That is exactly what Scripture says, you can read it for yourself. Jesus fulfilled the Torah, and in doing so removed the Torah as the covenant under which man lives. We are now under the New Covenant which is in Jesus, not in the Law, not in Moses, not in Abraham; but in Jesus Christ our Messiah.

It's the same thing. Different road to disobeying God. Twist as you will but the fact remains God's Torah encompasses every contingency a believer will come under. And God's Torah tells us how to navigate life.
The New Covenant came without instruction for daily living among the people of God for one reason. It was not necessary when the Torah was enough.

If you are not under the Law as a believer then you are Law-less, just like the lawless one, the antichrist. He believes he isn't under God's Law also.

Either bring your life under God's Law(s), or by default you join the ranks of the lawless one (antichrist.)
Your life. Your call.

 

[Azriel]

What did Paul say about putting yourself back under the law?

3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Fool4Christ]

I’ve known many who are tormented by fears that God can’t be as good as he portrays himself in Scripture. Some experience a gnawing anxiety about whether Jesus was really God and whether he can be trusted with their lives. But the worst and most crippling kind of doubt is when children of God live in fear and anxiety over the forgiveness of their sins and the security and safety of their soul in Christ. They can't grasp how much God loves them and how eternally secure they are.

Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly, eternal life, which means your salvation is eternally secure. Nothing can snatch us out of his hand. He is the Good Shepherd who leaves the 99 to go find that one lost sheep. He will never leave you nor forsake you.

 

[Doug Brents]

So, what does it mean to you?
If not "abolished" then the Torah is still active for God's people. Those are His Laws by which we are to live by and under. There are no other spiritual Laws for spiritual people out there to follow and obey.

What happens to a contract (which is what a covenant is) when all the provisions of that contract have been fulfilled by all the parties involved?
Is the contract null and void, because there is no longer any provision that is enforceable by one party on the other?
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Old Covenant. He did for man what man on his own could not do: He fulfilled man's part of the Covenant flawlessly.
God the Father fulfilled all the parts of the Old Covenant that were God's responsibility. So the covenant was completely fulfilled, and has no additional requirement by either God or man.
The New Covenant was initiated in Christ, and it includes all of Jesus teachings and all of the Apostles teachings and clarifications. It does not include any of the Old Covenant requirements except those that were restated in the New Covenant. Jesus taught not only don't murder but also don't hate because that is murder in your heart. So the commandment from the OT to not murder is incorporated into the NT. Nine of the Ten Commandments were incorporated into the NT, but keeping the sabbath was not. Keeping the kosher diet was not incorporated in the NT. Worshiping in Jerusalem, sacrificing animals, the Levitical priesthood, physical circumcision, and many of the other OT commandments were not incorporated into the NT.

It's the same thing. Different road to disobeying God. Twist as you will but the fact remains God's Torah encompasses every contingency a believer will come under. And God's Torah tells us how to navigate life.
The New Covenant came without instruction for daily living among the people of God for one reason. It was not necessary when the Torah was enough.

If you are not under the Law as a believer then you are Law-less, just like the lawless one, the antichrist. He believes he isn't under God's Law also.

Either bring your life under God's Law(s), or by default you join the ranks of the lawless one (antichrist.)
Your life. Your call.

The Law of Christ is still God's Law, it just isn't the Law given at Sinai anymore. We are not under the Law of Moses which was part of the Old Covenant (Gal 4:21-5:6. We are now under the Law of Christ (Rom 8:1-4).

 

[Red Baker]

Even the lost are loved. God loved us all even when we were lost, and so He sent His Son to redeem us. Lost or redeemed does not change the quantity or the quality of the love with which God loves us. Yes, once loved always loved. But that has NOTHING to do with saved or not saved or fallen out of being saved.

God does not loved all without qualification. He loves all who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world~He loved them even when they were dead in tresspasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1-8~"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;), And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Do we need to prove more from these scripture above what he highlighted in red?

By nature "only" were God's elect visibly children of wrath even as the children of disobedience are. But each one of God's elect were in Christ legally from all eternity and were in him while he lived in this world. What he did, it was as though we did the same~when he was put to death, so were we by being IN HIM; when he was raised from the dead, so were we; where he now sits in the heavenly places so do we legally speaking!

Salvation from sin and condemnation is ALL OF GRACE~we have been saved by faith, that is JESUS' faith, because faith is not of us, since we were dead in sin and under its power! We too had our conversation in time past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and of the mind!

The one's left in their sins were not loved by God, regardless what men say otherwise. Do you think Noah had a sign on the side of the ark that said: "Smile, God loves YOU"? Of course not, and neither was God under obligation to love anyone, but he did a few of them, very, very few.

 

[Doug Brents]

God does not loved all without qualification. He loves all who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world~He loved them even when they were dead in tresspasses and sins.

I find myself surprised that you do not know what is probably the most oft quoted verse in all Scripture. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life." God loved the world, not the "elect", not the righteous, not the saved; THE WORLD! This is reiterated in even more clear language in 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Jesus died, not just for His love of "our" (the saved) sins, but for the His love of everyone in the world.

Do we need to prove more from these scripture above what he highlighted in red?

By nature "only" were God's elect visibly children of wrath even as the children of disobedience are. But each one of God's elect were in Christ legally from all eternity and were in him while he lived in this world. What he did, it was as though we did the same~when he was put to death, so were we by being IN HIM; when he was raised from the dead, so were we; where he now sits in the heavenly places so do we legally speaking!

Salvation from sin and condemnation is ALL OF GRACE~we have been saved by faith, that is JESUS' faith, because faith is not of us, since we were dead in sin and under its power! We too had our conversation in time past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and of the mind!

The one's left in their sins were not loved by God, regardless what men say otherwise. Do you think Noah had a sign on the side of the ark that said: "Smile, God loves YOU"? Of course not, and neither was God under obligation to love anyone, but he did a few of them, very, very few.

You can always read into a passage what you want to see in it. But the clear message from Scripture is that God loves everyone, the saved and the unsaved. And this is clear because there were none saved before Jesus came to die on the cross. No, not even those who lived before Him, because their sins were paid for by His sacrifice. The blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sin, it only rolled them forward onto Christ Jesus (Heb 10:1-10).

 

[Red Baker]

I find myself surprised that you do not know what is probably the most oft quoted verse in all Scripture. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life." God loved the world, not the "elect", not the righteous, not the saved; THE WORLD! This is reiterated in even more clear language in 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Jesus died, not just for His love of "our" (the saved) sins, but for the His love of everyone in the world.

You can always read into a passage what you want to see in it. But the clear message from Scripture is that God loves everyone, the saved and the unsaved. And this is clear because there were none saved before Jesus came to die on the cross. No, not even those who lived before Him, because their sins were paid for by His sacrifice. The blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sin, it only rolled them forward onto Christ Jesus (Heb 10:1-10).

Doug, Just got in. I will answer your post early in the morning since I get up 330-400 am EST.

 

[synergy]

There were individual tribes living in the Promised Land. Canaanite refers to all of them in general in the land of Canaan. There were Amorites, Hittites, Jebusites, Hivites, Perizzites, and Gergashites. It's the same as saying Gentiles (non-Jews) were Italian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Canadian, Japanese, etc.
But when the Jews finally occupy their Promised Land God Himself will cleanse the land, like Joshua, of all Gentiles so that Israel possess the land all to themselves.
God Promised it. I believe it. That settles it.

He also said not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Torah till all has been fulfilled.
All has not been fulfilled. Thus, the Torah is still active in the lives of God's people.
And God's people obey His Torah. If they don't, they will be excised and punished.

Where does the Bible say that Gentiles ( Italian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Canadian, Japanese, etc.) will be ethnically cleansed?

 

[Red Baker]

I find myself surprised that you do not know what is probably the most oft quoted verse in all Scripture. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."

Greetings Doug,

Do not be surprise, because I'm not surprised that many, (even the world) can quote John 3:16, have have absolutely no understanding of Jesus' words~many within religion and all outside of the faith, only are hearing the seemly the sound bites, instead of seeking to know the true sense of the scriptures which all noble Bereans do~per Acts 17:11~and all of true ministers of Christ practice~Nehemiah 8:8.

Nehemiah 8:8​

“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”

John 3:16 does not teach that God loved all the world without exception, (as you are teaching and many others as well) but he loved the world without distinction, meaning.... Jews and Gentiles and among each, he has an election of grace within each nation of people.

In the OT God was the God not of the Egyptians, or any of the seven nations in the land of Canaan, but he was the God of the Jews only, with a very few exceptions. Consider:

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

For God so loved the world! See also Romans 9:24; 10:11-13; etc. God's love was clearly seen to be no longer confined to the Jewish nation as it was from Abraham until Acts 10. Do you find it unloving on God's part to not love other nations in the OT but Jews only? Why should you think that he loves the whole world without exception now? You will not find support in the word of God for such a doctrine. Consider:

Romans 9:13-16~"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

In loving Jacob, God showed him unmerited (actually demerited to be more precise) favor, and acted towards him in mercy; and in hating Esau, He showed him no favor who was entitled to none, and acted according to justice. Had God acted also in justice without mercy towards Jacob, He would have hated both; for both were in their origin guilty in Adam, wicked and deserving of hatred. The Apostle unveils the reason why this was not the case, when he afterwards says that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The justice of God in hating Esau was made fully manifest in the sequel by his abuse of the high privileges in the course of providence bestowed upon him. Notwithstanding all the advantages of instruction and example with which, beyond all others of the human race (with the exception of the rest of his family), he was distinguished, Esau despised his birthright, fraught with so many blessings, the natural right to which had been conferred on him in preference to his brother Jacob, and lived an ungodly life. If Jacob, who was placed in the same situation proved himself to be a godly man, it was entirely owing to the distinguishing grace of God. If it be objected, why was not this grace also vouchsafed to Esau? it may as well be asked, why are not the whole of mankind saved? That this will not be the case, even they who oppose the sovereignty of God in the election of grace cannot deny. Besides, will they, who affirm that God chooses men to eternal life because He foresees that they will do good works, deny that, at least, God foresaw the wickedness of Esau’s life? Even on their own principles, then, it was just to hate Esau before he was born; and, on the same ground of foreseeing his good works, it would have been just to love Jacob. Or will they say that this hatred should not have taken place till after Esau had acted such a part? This would prove that there is variableness with God, and that He does not hate to-day what He will hate to-morrow.

Jacob was loved before he was born, consequently before he was capable of doing good; and Esau was hated before he was born, consequently before he was capable of doing evil. It may be asked why God hated him before he sinned personally; and human wisdom has proved its folly, by endeavoring to soften the word hated into something less than hatred: but the man who submits like a little child to the word of God, will find no difficulty in seeing in what sense Esau was worthy of the hatred of God before he was born. He sinned in Adam, and was therefore properly an object of God’s hatred as well as fallen Adam. There is no other view that will ever account for this language and this treatment of Esau. By nature, too, he was a wicked creature, conceived in sin, although his faculties were not expanded, or his innate depravity developed, which God, who hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and hardeneth whom He will, and who giveth no account of His matters, did not see good to counteract by His grace, as in the case of Jacob, who originally was equally wicked, and by nature, like Esau, a child of wrath and a fit object of hatred.

The scriptures do not teach that God loves all men equally, for some he hates and they will be the object of His hatred and destruction.

This is reiterated in even more clear language in 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the [b]propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Jesus died, not just for His love of "our" (the saved) sins, but for the His love of everyone in the world.

Doug, John was the minister to the circumcision, Paul the uncircumcision~(see Galatians 2:9) the same truth taught in 1st John 2:2 that is taught in John 3:16. John writing to the Jewish believers is revealing to them, that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for OUR SINS (Jews) and not our only, but for the whole world, that is: men out of every nation under heaven. Though Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of the Jewish nation, not all Jews were part of the children of God's promise.

Romans 9:7,8~"Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The children of God's oath and promises. are some Jews and some Gentiles. God is now visiting the Gentiles nations and taking out of them a people for his name sake.

Acts 15:14-16~"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:"

The true tabernacle of David fallen in Adam raised up again in Jesus Christ~are made up of both Jews and Gentiles, not all Jews, not all Gentiles, only those chosen and given to Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Selah.

 

[Red Baker]

You can always read into a passage what you want to see in it.

How well do I know this to be so~and you are showing me exactly what you are telling me that others do. I'm reminded of Paul words:

Romans 2:21,22~"Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?"

Doug, do you read into the passage what you want to believe in? Pretty sure you and others do.

But the clear message from Scripture is that God loves everyone, the saved and the unsaved.

One of the most popular beliefs of the day is that God loves everybody, and the very fact that it is so popular with all classes ought to be enough to arouse the suspicions of those who are subject to the Word of Truth. God’s Love toward all His creatures is the fundamental and favorite tenet of Universalists, Unitarians, Theosophists, Christian Scientists, Spiritualists, Russellites, etc. No matter how a man may live—in open defiance of Heaven, with no concern whatever for his soul’s eternal interests, still less for God’s glory, dying, perhaps with an oath on his lips,—notwithstanding, God loves him, we are told. So widely has this dogma been proclaimed, and so comforting is it to the heart which is at enmity with God, we have little hope of convincing many of their error. That God loves everybody, is, we may say, quite a modern belief. The writings of the church-fathers, the Reformers or the Puritans will (we believe) be searched in vain for any such concept. Perhaps the late D. L. Moody—captivated by Drummond’s “The Greatest Thing in the World”—did more than anyone else last century to popularize this concept.

It has been customary to say God loves the sinner, though He hates his sin. But that is a meaningless distinction. What is there in a sinner but sin? Is it not true that his “whole head is sick”, and his “whole heart faint”, and that “from the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness” in him? (Isaiah 1:5,6). Is it true that God loves the one who is despising and rejecting His blessed Son? God is Light as well as Love, and therefore His love must be a holy love. To tell the Christ rejector that God loves him is to cauterize his conscience, as well as to afford him a sense of security in his sins. The fact is, that the love of God, is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children’s bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, (which we addressed above) not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus~the perfect Teacher~telling sinners that God loved them! In the book of Acts, which records the evangelistic labors and messages of the apostles, God’s love is never referred to at all! But, when we come to the Epistles, which are addressed to the saints, we have a full presentation of this precious truth—God’s love for His own. Let us seek to rightly divide the Word of God and then we shall not be found taking truths which are addressed to believers and misapplying them to unbelievers.

If you think it is so clear, then you are more than welcome to it.

And this is clear because there were none saved before Jesus came to die on the cross. No, not even those who lived before Him, because their sins were paid for by His sacrifice. The blood of bulls and goats cannot forgive sin, it only rolled them forward onto Christ Jesus (Heb 10:1-10).

Doug, this is really a different subject~so, I will only say a few words for now.

To teach that none were saved from sin and condemnation before the cross is to put one's bible ignorance on display. No pun intended, but truth is truth.

So, what you are suggesting is for us to rip Hebrews eleven out of our bibles? David preached the truth of imputeth righteousness! HAve you not so much as read this?

Psalms 32:1,2~"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

Paul quoted David in Romans 4:

Romans 4:1-8~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

I may come back to these scriptures later, but not now. OT saints had their sins forgiven! Christ was a lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Abraham was a friend of God and God does not have unforgiven sinners as his friends....... he doesn't fellowship with children of darkness!

True, our sins were legally paid for at Calvary, yet through imputeth righteousness ~ God does and can declare a man righteous based upon his everlasting counsel and purposes~ for none can defeat God will and purposes which he purposed within himself. See Ephesians one.

 

[Fool4Christ]

One common mistake that I've noticed is that when people try to explain their theology they never look at this verse.

But God has selected [for His purpose] the foolish things of the world to shame the wise [revealing their ignorance], and God has selected [for His purpose] the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong [revealing their frailty]. 1 Corinthians 1:27
Paul has asked the Christians in Corinth to take a good look at the people in their congregation, their brothers and sisters in Christ. In the previous verse, he wrote that very few of them are wise or powerful in human terms. Not many of them were born into nobility. His point is not to put them down, but to emphasize that God does not require brilliance or power to become a believer. In fact, many people rely on their intellect or wealth so much that it keeps them from trusting in God (Matthew 19:23).

Paul is continuing to reveal why so few Jews and Greeks believe in the crucified Christ. They think that any god who could or would die on a cross to save people would be foolish and weak. By extension, those who would believe such a thing would also be foolish and weak. The term used for "foolishness" here is the same one behind the English word moron.

Only those God calls to believe in the gospel can see the strength and wisdom in this act of love. Now Paul confirms that God does indeed choose foolish and weak people, as defined by human terms, to come to Him through faith in Christ. Why does God do this? He wants to shame those who consider themselves too wise or strong to believe such a thing. BibleRef

Paul, of course, is not saying that the believers in Corinth—or the humble Christians in other places and times—are truly foolish and weak. The world sees them as idiots and losers, because they occupy service positions, are not well-educated, or do not have money, rank, or social standing. Even more so, the world sees them as fools for believing in Jesus. In truth, though, by God's grace, these believers are the only ones who see clearly enough to receive what is actually wise and strong.

 

[Doug Brents]

Greetings Doug,

Do not be surprise, because I'm not surprised that many, (even the world) can quote John 3:16, have have absolutely no understanding of Jesus' words~many within religion and all outside of the faith, only are hearing the seemly the sound bites, instead of seeking to know the true sense of the scriptures which all noble Bereans do~per Acts 17:11~and all of true ministers of Christ practice~Nehemiah 8:8.

John 3:16 does not teach that God loved all the world without exception, (as you are teaching and many others as well) but he loved the world without distinction, meaning.... Jews and Gentiles and among each, he has an election of grace within each nation of people.

In the OT God was the God not of the Egyptians, or any of the seven nations in the land of Canaan, but he was the God of the Jews only, with a very few exceptions. Consider:


For God so loved the world! See also Romans 9:24; 10:11-13; etc. God's love was clearly seen to be no longer confined to the Jewish nation as it was from Abraham until Acts 10. Do you find it unloving on God's part to not love other nations in the OT but Jews only? Why should you think that he loves the whole world without exception now? You will not find support in the word of God for such a doctrine. Consider:

In loving Jacob, God showed him unmerited (actually demerited to be more precise) favor, and acted towards him in mercy; and in hating Esau, He showed him no favor who was entitled to none, and acted according to justice. Had God acted also in justice without mercy towards Jacob, He would have hated both; for both were in their origin guilty in Adam, wicked and deserving of hatred. The Apostle unveils the reason why this was not the case, when he afterwards says that God has mercy on whom He will have mercy. The justice of God in hating Esau was made fully manifest in the sequel by his abuse of the high privileges in the course of providence bestowed upon him. Notwithstanding all the advantages of instruction and example with which, beyond all others of the human race (with the exception of the rest of his family), he was distinguished, Esau despised his birthright, fraught with so many blessings, the natural right to which had been conferred on him in preference to his brother Jacob, and lived an ungodly life. If Jacob, who was placed in the same situation proved himself to be a godly man, it was entirely owing to the distinguishing grace of God. If it be objected, why was not this grace also vouchsafed to Esau? it may as well be asked, why are not the whole of mankind saved? That this will not be the case, even they who oppose the sovereignty of God in the election of grace cannot deny. Besides, will they, who affirm that God chooses men to eternal life because He foresees that they will do good works, deny that, at least, God foresaw the wickedness of Esau’s life? Even on their own principles, then, it was just to hate Esau before he was born; and, on the same ground of foreseeing his good works, it would have been just to love Jacob. Or will they say that this hatred should not have taken place till after Esau had acted such a part? This would prove that there is variableness with God, and that He does not hate to-day what He will hate to-morrow.

Jacob was loved before he was born, consequently before he was capable of doing good; and Esau was hated before he was born, consequently before he was capable of doing evil. It may be asked why God hated him before he sinned personally; and human wisdom has proved its folly, by endeavoring to soften the word hated into something less than hatred: but the man who submits like a little child to the word of God, will find no difficulty in seeing in what sense Esau was worthy of the hatred of God before he was born. He sinned in Adam, and was therefore properly an object of God’s hatred as well as fallen Adam. There is no other view that will ever account for this language and this treatment of Esau. By nature, too, he was a wicked creature, conceived in sin, although his faculties were not expanded, or his innate depravity developed, which God, who hath mercy on whom He will have mercy, and hardeneth whom He will, and who giveth no account of His matters, did not see good to counteract by His grace, as in the case of Jacob, who originally was equally wicked, and by nature, like Esau, a child of wrath and a fit object of hatred.

The scriptures do not teach that God loves all men equally, for some he hates and they will be the object of His hatred and destruction.

You make a good case here, and I can see how you would come to your conclusion from these passages. But your image of God is not consistent with the image we see of God in Scripture. GOD IS LOVE. It is not that God loves some and hates others. He cannot stand sin because it is a violation of who and what He is, so He cannot abide having sinful people where He is. But He loves everyone in the whole world, and even while we were still sinners, Jesus died for us. Not because we were righteous, but while we were still unrighteous, He offered Himself for us.

Doug, John was the minister to the circumcision, Paul the uncircumcision~(see Galatians 2:9) the same truth taught in 1st John 2:2 that is taught in John 3:16. John writing to the Jewish believers is revealing to them, that Jesus Christ is the propitiation for OUR SINS (Jews) and not our only, but for the whole world, that is: men out of every nation under heaven. Though Jesus was the propitiation for the sins of the Jewish nation, not all Jews were part of the children of God's promise.

Not all of the Jews are part of the Children of Promise, that is correct. But John is not speaking only to the Jews in 1 John. All of John's writings were written long after the other writings of the NT. He was writing to the Church as a whole, not just the Jews. By the time John began writing his Gospel, the first of his books, the Gentiles had been in the Church for about 45 years (Cornelius' conversion around 37AD, John written 80-90AD). Only 2 John and 3 John were addressed to a particular person or group. The Gospel of John, 1 John, and Revelation were not addressed to anyone in particular but are for the Church as a whole without distinction.

In 1 John 2:1-2, John is talking to "my little children" which is anyone in the Church over which He was an overseer (and by extension, to all the Church everywhere and for all time). His "little children" are both Jews and Gentiles in that congregation, and He is telling them that Jesus died not only to cover their sins (the sins of the saved), but also for the sins of everyone in the whole of the world (the saved and the unsaved).