Eternal Security

[jeremiah1five]

First of all, thank you for your response!

Secondly, and to the point, the NT is the expression of the OT as it was intended to be. That’s the point of much of Paul’s writing and the book of Hebrews if Paul is not the author. It shows us how the Law of Moses was pointing to the reality of Christ.

Therefore, if we read the NT, we are reading what the OT was actually saying in veiled form.

The law was never meant to be a means of salvation, that’s why Paul points back to Abraham, 430 years before the Law was given to Moses. It is only by faith that we are made righteous. Never by the keeping of the law.

Gal 3:
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a 4Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” c

7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” f12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

If we believe in Christ, the law has been fulfilled!


Doug

Fulfilled does not mean abolish or end.

Saul's declaration of "blameless" is another way of saying "justified."

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Philippians 3:3–6.

In one place he says one cannot attain righteousness through the Law, and here he says he's attained rightesousness which is in the Law.

Seems like Saul is speaking out of both corners of his mouth.

But the bottom line is this. Jesus kept the Law. Saul, Peter, James, and the other Jewish Christians kept the Law especially after becoming converted and born-again. How can one be a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ and not follow of do what He did? Or are we to only hear and not do?

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:19–20.

True, Biblical Christianity is only Judaism Completed.

For the obedient, that is.

Here is a prophecy for the future. Notice the Torah is alive and well - except if one is Gentile:

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:13–14.

Natural Israel could not obey the perfect requirements of the Torah because they were natural. But once the Holy Spirit of Promise converted them into spiritual Israel then they could keep the perfect requirements of the Torah. And as Christ kept all the requirements of the Torah and Christ is in us, then God sees us as having obeyed every jot and tittle of the Torah which is our justification unto righteousness.
What is meant that to the House of Israel God promised to put His Torah in their inward parts? What Torah?
The Law of Moses.

The Torah was type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. Where once God wrote with His finger His Torah on stone by which to lead and guide the children of Israel, through their conversion God puts His Torah in their inward parts and leads and guides them from within. If the Torah is abolished or ended, then what does God use to convict us of sin with? Why do we "feel" or sense conviction of violating God's Law/Torah when we have other gods before us, or we lie or steal or commit fornication, masturbation, or adultery?

By saying and teaching others the Torah is abolished or ended is tantamount to saying the Holy Spirit is abolished or ended.

Is that your position? To commit blasphemy by saying there is no blasphemy.

To be a disciple and follower of Christ means to hear and do the same as our Master.

There are many Scriptures that command obedience to the Torah and almost none that command disobedience to the Torah. The way to get out from under God's Law is to say, "It's abolished" or "we no longer have to obey God."
We can hear the Law/Torah, but we don't have to obey God's Law/Torah.
If one says that then they are no disciple or follower of Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

The cart before the horse.
Jesus kept kosher.
Saul kept kosher.
James, Peter, and John kept kosher.
Every Hebrew/Jew born-again kept the Torah as Jesus and if one is to be a Christ follower then keep the Torah.
That's what a disciple and follower does.

Peter did not keep kosher (Gal 2:12). Peter ate with Gentiles.
Paul did not keep kosher (1 Cor 9:19-23).

Oh, but we are not saved by the Torah, you say. Gentiles were never under the Torah, you say. Gentiles are not in the Abrahamic Covenant, you say. All of these are true. But in the Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus' words all say that everyone will be judge by the Torah. You're Gentile and a Christ follower and the Holy Spirit dwells within you? Then why do you "feel" or sense conviction if you have other gods before you, or commit a lie, or take the Lord's Name in vain? You're being convicted of disobeying/violating the Torah. There's no other Torah out there.

The Torah has been completely fulfilled. The Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus (on Man's behalf) and the Father did all that God said He would do for His part. So there are no more requirements in the Old Covenant that remain unfulfilled. The Old Covenant is null and void because it has been fulfilled. Jesus instituted a New Covenant which contains most of the moral requirements of the Old Covenant (but not all). This New Covenant is what we are subject to today. It is the Holy Spirit which brings about the "feeling" of conviction when I sin against the New Covenant, but not the Torah.

And what did God mean to Israel that He would put His Torah in their inward parts? First, as Gentile understand and accept as true that none of the Hebrew Covenants include Gentiles. None. In fact, I've said continually that God has made no salvation covenant with Gentiles. None. And let's not elbow your way as Gentile into the Abrahamic Covenant because of your misunderstanding of Saul's words in Galatians 3:29. Let's stop all that nonsense. Type and shadow. You know what that is, right? If there is no precedence in the Hebrew Scripture (Torah, Psalms, Prophets) then there's no reality in the New Covenant writings (Matthew to Revelation - more Hebrew Scripture.)

There was no precedent for God becoming a man before Jesus either. But He did. And no, it is not a misunderstanding of Paul's words in Gal 3:29 to say that everyone who is in Christ is now an heir to Abraham. Everyone who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from the tree that is Israel, and everyone who does believe in Jesus is grafted into the tree that is Israel (Rom 11). So then, everyone who believes in Jesus is part of Israel, and so is an heir to the promises to Abraham. And everyone who does not believe in Jesus (even if they are a Jew) is no longer part of Israel, and so is not an heir to the promises to Abraham.

In the Scripture God wrote with His finger His Torah on stone. The children of Israel were commanded obedience to His Torah, all three parts: Ceremonial, Social, and Moral. Various punishments were given for disobedience. But never does God give faith as requirement in either of the three salvation covenants. Besides circumcision (Abraham), and obedience (Moses), and the New Covenant there are no other requirements. That's simplifying it. But back to type and shadow.

There is no mention in the Torah of the faith that was required in it. But faith was required none the less. Faith is obedience because of trust, and so the obedience of Abraham and Moses were demonstrations of the faith they had.

The Torah/Law is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit of Promise. It is HE God Promised to put in the inward parts of the children of Israel. Now that the Holy Spirit of Promise in dwelling within a converted person -Jew or Gentile - God leads, guides, convicts a person from within. So, when one lies or steals or commits fornication or adultery - and believers will at times violate God's Torah - the Holy Spirit of Promise convicts the believer from within as the Torah written on stone did from without.

Agreed.

One more thing. Jesus Himself said (speaking to the lost sheep of the House of Israel):

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:17–19.

Christ fulfilled the Torah, but He adds "not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Torah till all be fulfilled." There are still Torah and prophecies that need to be fulfilled before heaven and earth pass (away - 2 Pete 3:10.)

All of the Law was fulfilled by Jesus during His life before He was crucified. That is why, at the end, He was able to say, "It is finished." He had done all of what He came to do, and that was to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Notice in verse 18 that He does not mention the Prophets as part of what has to be fulfilled before the Law passes away.

Christ fulfilling the Torah (and certain prophecies) did not mean an end to the Torah or the prophecies. Revelation makes that clear enough. If Christ fulfilled Torah and prophecies and Christ is in our inward parts, then as our substitute we also have fulfilled Torah and prophecies through the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us. He is our justification and our righteousness. And before God we are "Not Guilty!" And before God we are holy.

Agreed 100%.

This means we still must obey the Torah to have no other gods before us, so let's put that Xbox back in its box and love God more than our wives. In fact, as men we put our wives in the house and our wives are our house, if you can understand this.

It is not Torah to which we must turn to obey. It is Christ, and the New Covenant in Him.

The Torah is not abolished or ended. If one were to say and teach this, and the Torah is type and shadow of the Holy Spirit of Promise then such commentary and teaching is tantamount to saying the Holy Spirit of Promise is abolished and ended.
And this is blasphemy.

The Holy Spirit is not ended. He began His residence in the hearts of those who belong to Christ Jesus (Yeshua Hamashiach) when Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the indwelling for the first time. Saying that the Torah is ended is not the same as saying that the Holy Spirit is ended.

Then, you end up with 'another' meal as much as you end up with 'another' gospel.

There is no new meal or another gospel. The Gospel is the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and the promises and requirements of man to receive the benefit of Jesus sacrifice. There is no other Gospel. The New Covenant does not contain the same food restrictions that the Old Covenant did as evidenced by Peter's vision in Acts Acts 10, and by Jesus statement that things that go into the mouth do not make one defiled in Matt 15:11, 16-20.

So, are we to hear and not do?

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 5:18–19.

First, one must "do His commandments" before one can have right to the tree of life and enter through the gates [of the kingdom of heaven.]

Our marching orders are hear and do.

Of course we must hear and do, but it is the New Covenant that we must hear and do, not the Old.

 

[Behold]

The question is not whether God will lose anything, it's whether we walk away from Him

Being born again is a Spiritual Birth.

You can't "walk away" from being Born, but deceived people like you, seem to not be able to comprehend this reality.

I use to think it was just a case of "stupid", was the cause of this type of thinking..... but, over time, and years, i learned that the Devil, is at work.

So, here is what i want you to do.. @dwight92070 .

I want you to go to your mother, and say...>"mother, i am not born anymore, im walking away from it".

And she'll tell you, that you are "nutz", and God will tell you the same.

Are you listening?
You should.

 

[Theophilus]

Being born again is a Spiritual Birth.

You can't "walk away" from being Born, but deceived people like you, seem to not be able to comprehend this reality.

I use to think it was just a case of "stupid", was the cause of this type of thinking..... but, over time, and years, i learned that the Devil, is at work.

So, here is what i want you to do.. @dwight92070 .

I want you to go to your mother, and say...>"mother, i am not born anymore, im walking away from it".

And she'll tell you, that you are "nutz", and God will tell you the same.

Are you listening?
You should.

I believe in Eternal Security and I also believe about not talking about somebody's mother. Let's let's try and share our beliefs in a loving manner without bringing someone's mother or referring to stupid nuts, I know you're trying to help people but that kind of a post just puts them on the defensive and starts arguments. I know we've all been guilty of it at one time or another, I'm sure that I've done my share.

 

[dwight92070]

If my understanding is correct, @jeremiah1five is an elderly poster, to whom we may seem to be “youngsters”. Be carful of making judgements about his intent, for that is beyond our scope of knowledge sans his making an explicit statement to verify our perspective of his motives.

This said, his biblical reasoning is not, in my estimation, sound, much less correct! Perhaps more prayer and less prosecution would be beneficial, while scripturally expressing our objections to his propositions and offering corrective explanations of the scripture he has misinterpreted.

Our job as believers is to stand for what we have come to believe and defend it in love! The Lord is the only judge, and the only one to whom we will answer! If we would all focus on what we are personally called to be ( ie, removing the log from our own eyes) , we would see a lot more progress in our “Christ likeness”, if not our agreement.


Doug

Paul said, "Do you not judge those who are within the church?" 1 Corinthians 5:12
Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but JUDGE with righteous judgment." John 7:24

Jesus never forbade ALL judging but unfortunately many Christians are deceived into thinking that He did. That's exactly what Satan wants you to believe. That way we can be "inclusive" of all sinners in the church - judge no one. That's not Christianity - that's WOKE.

"First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Jesus in Matthew 7:5
If I have a log in my eye, then that would mean that I am guilty of the same thing I accuse Jeremiah1 five of - teaching false doctrine. I am open for you or any person here (who teaches truth) to show me what my log is. (But then, you probably won't, because then you will think that you are sinfully judging me.) Wrong. Paul says we are to judge those in the church, in the above verse - that DOES NOT mean condemn.

You don't seem to realize that some Christians are CALLED to expose false teachings, to warn and serve the body of Christ. If we do it hypocritically, being guilty of the same thing, then we disqualify ourselves. But if not, then we can bring great benefit to the body of Christ. Isn't this one of the roles of a prophet, found in 1 Corinthians 14:3 - to edify, exhort, and console? "Exhort" can mean "to warn or give advice" "to strongly urge". I don't claim to be a prophet, but I think I do have a type of a prophetic ministry, and I believe many more in the body of Christ have a similar ministry. Justin Peters, Hank Hanegraaf, Josh McDowell, James Dobson, Michael Brown, Steve Gregg, Alisa Childers and Walter Martin are just a sampling of well-known brothers (and one sister here) who I believe have prophetic ministries, even though they will probably not claim such. But many other Christians reject that because they accuse those with that calling, of judging and (they think) we're not supposed to judge.

By the way, judging someone is not always a negative thing. I judge so and so to be an accurate and godly Bible teacher. I judge Donald Trump as having been a great President. I judge Billy Graham to have been a great man of God, etc.

When James talks about not judging our brother, he means don't condemn them. James is not forbidding us from making an objective assessment of another brother - his life and his actions, etc. Some of that will be good. Some of that may be bad. Some - neutral. If the bad involves sin, we are COMMANDED to rebuke him.

Jesus also said, "Be on your guard, if your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." Luke 17:3

Do we obey this commandment? We're supposed to. Many Christians do NOT obey this, because they know they also have sins. "Who am I to judge?", they say. Jesus did NOT SAY to wait until you are without sin - then you can rebuke him. He DID SAY that if you rebuke someone for doing something that YOU YOURSELF are guilty of, then you are a hypocrite. Take care of your own sin first, then go to your brother.

It behooves us, then, to rid our lives of ALL KNOWN sin, so we can be free to obey Christ's command to "take the speck out of our brother's eye". Also, if someone points out OUR sin, we need to be quick to repent, if it is true. If it is false, then we have nothing to repent of, at least not in that regard.

 

[Cyrus]

The authors of the New Testament left us with detailed explanations of how one becomes a child of God; if that process could be reversed, doesn’t it make sense that at least one of them would have gone into equal detail explaining that as well?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Peter did not keep kosher (Gal 2:12). Peter ate with Gentiles.
Paul did not keep kosher (1 Cor 9:19-23).

Peter, James John, and Saul were obedient to the Torah.
Jesus was obedient to the Torah.
If you're going to claim to being a Christian which means "Christ follower" and not obey His commands to obey the Torah then you're not a Christian.

The Torah has been completely fulfilled. The Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus (on Man's behalf) and the Father did all that God said He would do for His part. So there are no more requirements in the Old Covenant that remain unfulfilled. The Old Covenant is null and void because it has been fulfilled. Jesus instituted a New Covenant which contains most of the moral requirements of the Old Covenant (but not all). This New Covenant is what we are subject to today. It is the Holy Spirit which brings about the "feeling" of conviction when I sin against the New Covenant, but not the Torah.

The New Covenant is the Torah.

There was no precedent for God becoming a man before Jesus either. But He did. And no, it is not a misunderstanding of Paul's words in Gal 3:29 to say that everyone who is in Christ is now an heir to Abraham. Everyone who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from the tree that is Israel, and everyone who does believe in Jesus is grafted into the tree that is Israel (Rom 11). So then, everyone who believes in Jesus is part of Israel, and so is an heir to the promises to Abraham. And everyone who does not believe in Jesus (even if they are a Jew) is no longer part of Israel, and so is not an heir to the promises to Abraham.

There is no mention in the Torah of the faith that was required in it. But faith was required none the less. Faith is obedience because of trust, and so the obedience of Abraham and Moses were demonstrations of the faith they had.

Agreed.

All of the Law was fulfilled by Jesus during His life before He was crucified. That is why, at the end, He was able to say, "It is finished." He had done all of what He came to do, and that was to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Notice in verse 18 that He does not mention the Prophets as part of what has to be fulfilled before the Law passes away.

Agreed 100%.

It is not Torah to which we must turn to obey. It is Christ, and the New Covenant in Him.

The Holy Spirit is not ended. He began His residence in the hearts of those who belong to Christ Jesus (Yeshua Hamashiach) when Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the indwelling for the first time. Saying that the Torah is ended is not the same as saying that the Holy Spirit is ended.

There is no new meal or another gospel. The Gospel is the life, death, resurrection of Jesus and the promises and requirements of man to receive the benefit of Jesus sacrifice. There is no other Gospel. The New Covenant does not contain the same food restrictions that the Old Covenant did as evidenced by Peter's vision in Acts Acts 10, and by Jesus statement that things that go into the mouth do not make one defiled in Matt 15:11, 16-20.

Of course we must hear and do, but it is the New Covenant that we must hear and do, not the Old.

The Torah is eternal and Christ commands obedience to it.
That's the bottom line.

 

[dwight92070]

The authors of the New Testament left us with detailed explanations of how one becomes a child of God; if that process could be reversed, doesn’t it make sense that at least one of them would have gone into equal detail explaining that as well?

Dwight -Could you please give us those detailed explanations that you are referring to? You make it sound quite complex. What I see are very simple instructions from the New Testament authors. There's no process mentioned.

How about Paul's explanation to the Philippian jailer? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." Acts 16:31
Or how about this one, which Peter quoted? "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21
How about Jesus' explanation? "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved ..." John 10:9
Or this? "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way , and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6
Here's another one from Peter: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. (other than Jesus) Acts 4:12
Peter also said, "for you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:23

So where's the detailed explanations?
These same authors explain in words just as simple, that a believer can give up their faith and be lost. However, unlike you, they never describe it as a reverse of the "process" for salvation. Those are your words, not theirs.

1 Timothy 5:15 "Therefore I want the younger widows to get married, ... for some have already turned aside to follow Satan."
1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from (the Greek here is the same root word as apostatize, which means to "renounce one's faith" or to "abandon a previous loyalty") the faith, ... "
Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart in falling away from the living God."
2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."
Romans 11:22 "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
2 Timothy 2:12 "... If we deny Him, He also will deny us;"
And there's many more.

So the New Testament authors simply and plainly tell us that a true believer can:
1. Turn aside
2. Depart from, apostatize from the faith
3. Change their heart from believing to unbelieving
4. Fall away from the living God.
5. Get entangled again in the defilements of the world, and even be overcome.
6. Refuse to continue in His kindness
7. Be cut off.
8. Deny Him
And there's more.

I never said that being born again could be reversed, nor does the Bible. But that is irrelevant, because the Bible does NOT have to say that to clearly show us that it is possible for a believer to become an unbeliever, and be lost, since we ALWAYS will have a free will. The only way that could NOT BE possible is if God FORCED you, against your free will, to stay saved. Jesus once asked His disciples, "You do not want to leave too, do you?" In other words they were free to leave at any time. Jesus never takes away our free will. Any believer can leave Jesus any time he wants to - and Jesus will NOT forcefully stop him. The key is loving Him so much that we never want to leave Him, and trusting Him as we walk in the Spirit.

 

[Cyrus]

Dwight -Could you please give us those detailed explanations that you are referring to? You make it sound quite complex. What I see are very simple instructions from the New Testament authors. There's no process mentioned.

How about Paul's explanation to the Philippian jailer? "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved ..." Acts 16:31
Or how about this one, which Peter quoted? "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Acts 2:21
How about Jesus' explanation? "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved ..." John 10:9
Or this? "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way , and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6
Here's another one from Peter: "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. (other than Jesus) Acts 4:12
Peter also said, "for you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God." 1 Peter 1:23

So where's the detailed explanations?
These same authors explain in words just as simple, that a believer can give up their faith and be lost. However, unlike you, they never describe it as a reverse of the "process" for salvation. Those are your words, not theirs.

1 Timothy 5:15 "Therefore I want the younger widows to get married, ... for some have already turned aside to follow Satan."
1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from (the Greek here is the same root word as apostatize, which means to "renounce one's faith" or to "abandon a previous loyalty") the faith, ... "
Hebrews 3:12 "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart in falling away from the living God."
2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them."
Romans 11:22 "Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
2 Timothy 2:12 "... If we deny Him, He also will deny us;"
And there's many more.

So the New Testament authors simply and plainly tell us that a true believer can:
1. Turn aside
2. Depart from, apostatize from the faith
3. Change their heart from believing to unbelieving
4. Fall away from the living God.
5. Get entangled again in the defilements of the world, and even be overcome.
6. Refuse to continue in His kindness
7. Be cut off.
8. Deny Him
And there's more.

I never said that being born again could be reversed, nor does the Bible. But that is irrelevant, because the Bible does NOT have to say that to clearly show us that it is possible for a believer to become an unbeliever, and be lost, since we ALWAYS will have a free will. The only way that could NOT BE possible is if God FORCED you, against your free will, to stay saved. Jesus once asked His disciples, "You do not want to leave too, do you?" In other words they were free to leave at any time. Jesus never takes away our free will. Any believer can leave Jesus any time he wants to - and Jesus will NOT forcefully stop him. The key is loving Him so much that we never want to leave Him, and trusting Him as we walk in the Spirit.

I'm sorry my brother but I have no idea what you're talking about or how it relates to my post.

 

[Doug Brents]

Peter, James John, and Saul were obedient to the Torah.
Jesus was obedient to the Torah.
If you're going to claim to being a Christian which means "Christ follower" and not obey His commands to obey the Torah then you're not a Christian.

Jesus was obedient to the Torah because He lived and died during the time it was the Law. But after His death the Torah ceased to be the Law. There is now no mandate to keep kosher. The kosher laws have been eliminated because they are not stated in the New Covenant as being part of the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is the Torah.

No, the New Covenant is in Christ, and He did not restate all of the commands of the Torah in the New Covenant.

The Torah is eternal and Christ commands obedience to it.
That's the bottom line.

He commanded obedience to it while He was alive. But after His death it ceased to be valid; it was fulfilled.
"Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman." (Gal 4:21-31)
We are not children (subject to) the slave woman (the Old Covenant). We are children of the free woman (the New Covenant).

 

[dwight92070]

I'm sorry my brother but I have no idea what you're talking about or how it relates to my post.

I think you are bluffing. I'm responding to your post #1026. Now do you get it?

 

[Cyrus]

I think you are bluffing. I'm responding to your post #1026. Now do you get it?

Nope I'm serious as a heart attack.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus was obedient to the Torah because He lived and died during the time it was the Law. But after His death the Torah ceased to be the Law. There is now no mandate to keep kosher. The kosher laws have been eliminated because they are not stated in the New Covenant as being part of the New Covenant.

No, the New Covenant is in Christ, and He did not restate all of the commands of the Torah in the New Covenant.

He commanded obedience to it while He was alive. But after His death it ceased to be valid; it was fulfilled.
"Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the Law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is speaking allegorically, for these women are two covenants: one coming from Mount Sinai giving birth to children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is enslaved with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, infertile one, you who do not give birth;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For the children of the desolate one are more numerous
Than those of the one who has a husband.”

28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time the son who was born according to the flesh persecuted the one who was born according to the Spirit, so it is even now. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

“Drive out the slave woman and her son,
For the son of the slave woman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

31 So then, brothers and sisters, we are not children of a slave woman, but of the free woman." (Gal 4:21-31)
We are not children (subject to) the slave woman (the Old Covenant). We are children of the free woman (the New Covenant).

That's an incredible position to believe in.

So, Jesus taught His people the Torah, commanded obedience to their Torah only to months later die on the cross and "abolish" it?

Let's just say that Christian follows Christ. That a disciple follows their leader and teacher.
And those that don't follow their leader and teacher are not true Christian and disciples of Christ.
Well, that's as honest and biblical a response can get.
Incredible.

 

[Wilber]

Jesus did teach from the written “law of Moses”. He taught the Torah first and foremost, what Moses had already instructed Israel. The Sermon on the Mount was firmly rooted in the book of Exodus, and He also gave some of His teachings during the feasts found in Leviticus 23. Jesus continued to point to the writings of Moses to prove who He was.

 

[TibiasDad]

Fulfilled does not mean abolish or end.

Fulfilled means it has accomplished its purpose. The law has two purposes:

1) to show us the the sinfulness of sin and that we are incapable of keeping the law perfectly. (Rom 3:20, 5:20, 7:7-13)

And,

2) to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:19)

Since the coming of Christ, the purpose of the law is complete in those who come to Christ, and the law that could not save and could not be kept is of no purpose to them now.

But now, the whole of the Law can be kept completely by those who live by the Spirit and not the flesh. (Rom 8:1-4) The 613 Commandments of the OT, are summed up in one solitary law, one that is both in the old law and yet is a new law, namely “Love one another as He has loved us”! And again, “Love the Lord your God with all your” being! For “this is how you will know” that you and others are true disciples.

Saul's declaration of "blameless" is another way of saying "justified."

No, blameless, in Phil 3:6 is the word ἄμεμπτος (am-empt- os) and it means “blameless, free from fault or defect” (Strong) and “ámemptos (an adjective, derived from 1 /A "not" and 3201 /mémphomai, "to find blame") – properly, without fault; not blameworthy, by omission or commission; hence, above reproach because morally pure. (This term stands in contrast to 299 /ámōmos, "ritual purity.")

You will notice that “justified” is not the meaning, nor is it even implied. Even if Paul kept the law faultlessly, that is insufficient to justify him before God, for “no one can be saved by the keeping of the law” (Gal 2:16).

Indeed, his doesn’t mean that we can disregard the moral commandments, for “we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (Rom 8:12-13) But we are not to live by the law, but “by the Spirit”, and not the flesh. Again, the Law is good, for we “would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom 7:7) But we are not saved by the law, nor is the ceremonial law needed, being a shadow of the things that were to come. These things are of the Old Covenant, but we have a New Covenant, and, “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13)

To maintain the ceremonial law is to negate the work of Christ. Christ’s coming and work makes the Old Testament/Covenant superfluous and unnecessary and therefore, “obsolete”!

We are saved by grace through faith, and only then can “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us” (Rom 8:4). Only then are we set free from the law of sin and death. The moral law has fulfilled its purpose and the ineffective ceremonial law is discarded and replaced by the blood of Christ.

Brother, I cannot read the books of Romans and Hebrews and find your arguments plausible.


Doug

 

[dwight92070]

Nope I'm serious as a heart attack.

Okay, how about this? You say the New Testament goes into detailed explanations of how one becomes a child of God.
My response? No it doesn't. The New Testament gives simple statements that do that, not detailed explanations. Then I give several examples of verses showing how simple it is to be saved (or to become a child of God).
Then you speculate about whether that process of becoming a child of God can be reversed, saying that if it could be, then we would expect equally detailed explanations by the N.T. authors of how that can happen. (You're obviously referring to losing your salvation, which I believe can happen, but you don't).
My response? The N.T. authors give a multitude of examples of believers falling away from the faith - I list several places where they do - but they never call it "reversing the process" of becoming a child of God, as you do. Nor are they detailed explanations of reversing the process of becoming a child of God. They are simple statements about turning away from God, just like the verses about becoming a child of God - are simple.
So for you or anyone to think that for a true believer to reject God and his salvation, is the same as "reversing the process" of becoming a child of God is not supported by scripture. Or, as some ask, "If you're born again, how can you get unborn?" Which is a nonsense question, because the Bible never says apostates "get unborn" but it does say they "fall away", apostatize, get cut off, deny Him, and all the other words that I listed.
Now do you get it?

 

[TibiasDad]

Paul said, "Do you not judge those who are within the church?" 1 Corinthians 5:12
Jesus said, "Do not judge according to appearance, but JUDGE with righteous judgment." John 7:24

I have judged his argument to be in error, and I have tried to express my reasoning as to why I have come to this conclusion. I have not judged him personally or cast doubt or dispersion on his relationship with Christ.

I do believe that I casted a sense of judgment on your choice of words regarding @jeremiah1five in your earlier post as being the wrong kind of judgment, so I don’t know why you would think I don’t believe we should be able to judge each other.

I believe I have not been unkind or uncharitable toward you or anyone else, and have always tried to avoid being so.

Doug

 

[synergy]

I have judged his argument to be in error, and I have tried to express my reasoning as to why I have come to this conclusion. I have not judged him personally or cast doubt or dispersion on his relationship with Christ.

I do believe that I casted a sense of judgment on your choice of words regarding @jeremiah1five in your earlier post as being the wrong kind of judgment, so I don’t know why you would think I don’t believe we should be able to judge each other.

I believe I have not been unkind or uncharitable toward you or anyone else, and have always tried to avoid being so.

Doug

When @jeremiah1five openly appeals for ethnic cleansing, polite responses just won't get through to him. I don't know if a more direct approach will work but those indoctrinated in ideologies will always view politeness as a weakness. Like Paul we should be "all things to all people" in an objective rational way.

 

[Red Baker]

There is warning for believer who believes in OSAS of course.

Much has already been said, and maybe someone has covered this subject already, so I'll be very brief.

OSAS is a misnomer, because God's children can lose peace, joy, fellowship, for periods of time and maybe for a very long time much like Lot did while living in the well watered plains of Sodom and Gomorrha. Lot never enjoyed God's best for him, because he allowed earthly lust to ruled him at times, actually, most of the times, even though his righteous spirit convicted him as he was grieved with the wickedness he saw around him, but not enough to moved him to leave! Very sad.

2nd Peter 2:6-9~"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: with their unlawful deeds. The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"

I would have never known that to be so of Lot, unless the Spirit's witness of it to be so. Yet Lot lost a lot by staying in Sodom and Gomorrha. It cost him his wife and children~to what degree, I'll leave that to the Lord, but to much degree it did.

Now that being said, I teach OLAL~Once loved, always loved. For Jesus Christ secured our gift of eternal life by his obedience and righteousness. It's part of the New Covenant supported by two immutable acts of God~his oath and promises of grace to the seed of Jesus Christ. Which can never be broken, no never~hear the word of God concerning this truth~read it and bless the God of heaven !

Psalms 89:1-37~I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David (Christ) my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name. Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. (CHRIST) I have found David (CHRIST) my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

Case closed! "Once loved, ALWAYS LOVED!"

 

[jeremiah1five]

Fulfilled means it has accomplished its purpose.

I agree. But only in part. That is the meaning of fulfilled. But the problem with Gentiles is they place the focus on the Torah rather than on Christ. Jesus said HE came to fulfill the Law which means that the covenant aspects of the Torah that prophesy about His coming and His Person and Work, and the prophecies of Israel's prophets concerning His coming and His Person and His Work have been fulfilled. But as Scripture says Israel will be a sign against the world, there are still prophecies in the Torah and prophecies of Israel's prophets concerning Israel that still need to be fulfilled and not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Torah UNTIL ALL has been fulfilled.
Christ fulfilled the Torah; the Torah has not fulfilled Christ and that is the great sin of Gentiles that teach the Torah of God is "abolished" or "ended." A great sin indeed that will lead to their destruction as disobedience to God's Torah led Israel to destruction themselves.

The law has two purposes:
1) to show us the the sinfulness of sin and that we are incapable of keeping the law perfectly. (Rom 3:20, 5:20, 7:7-13)
And,
2) to lead us to Christ (Gal 3:19)

Very good. So, "abolishing" the Torah means NO ONE can come to Christ for to "abolish" God's Torah NO ONE will be able to "see" their sinfulness, and this leads to false conversions.

Since the coming of Christ, the purpose of the law is complete in those who come to Christ, and the law that could not save and could not be kept is of no purpose to them now.

How hypocritical. In the above paragraph you give the purpose of God's Torah, and here you say it is of no use. So, if the Torah is "abolished" (which is what Gentiles teach) then it can show NO ONE their sin, NOR will it lead anyone to Christ because it has been "abolished" in its purpose. That's typical of Gentiles. The say one thing out the corner of their mouth and say the opposite out the corner of the other side.

But now, the whole of the Law can be kept completely by those who live by the Spirit and not the flesh. (Rom 8:1-4) The 613 Commandments of the OT, are summed up in one solitary law, one that is both in the old law and yet is a new law, namely “Love one another as He has loved us”! And again, “Love the Lord your God with all your” being! For “this is how you will know” that you and others are true disciples.

True. But that command was given to the twelve tribes of Israel and never to Gentiles.

No, blameless, in Phil 3:6 is the word ἄμεμπτος (am-empt- os) and it means “blameless, free from fault or defect” (Strong) and “ámemptos (an adjective, derived from 1 /A "not" and 3201 /mémphomai, "to find blame") – properly, without fault; not blameworthy, by omission or commission; hence, above reproach because morally pure. (This term stands in contrast to 299 /ámōmos, "ritual purity.")

You will notice that “justified” is not the meaning, nor is it even implied. Even if Paul kept the law faultlessly, that is insufficient to justify him before God, for “no one can be saved by the keeping of the law” (Gal 2:16).

Saul said "of the righteousness WHICH IS IN THE LAW he was blameless (justified.) Elsewhere he says the Torah cannot justify anyone. Saying opposites shows a double-mind.

Indeed, his doesn’t mean that we can disregard the moral commandments, for “we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” (Rom 8:12-13) But we are not to live by the law, but “by the Spirit”, and not the flesh. Again, the Law is good, for we “would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom 7:7) But we are not saved by the law, nor is the ceremonial law needed, being a shadow of the things that were to come. These things are of the Old Covenant, but we have a New Covenant, and, “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.” (Heb 8:13)

Again, if it is disappeared then it does not exist and if it does not exist then NO ONE will know what sin is, and NO ONE will be led to Christ for salvation and for the past 1900 years that Gentiles have taught the "abolishment" of the Torah means every conversion under their tent is false conversion for it does not occur according to the purpose of the Torah, and if not in accordance to the Torah, then all are false salvations and only mere emotionalism, ism, ism, ism.

To maintain the ceremonial law is to negate the work of Christ. Christ’s coming and work makes the Old Testament/Covenant superfluous and unnecessary and therefore, “obsolete”!

Again, you say to live by the flesh is death but to live by the spirit is life and say opposite things in the same breath. Saul said the Torah is spiritual and the reason it kills is because in our natural state we are flesh. But once we become spiritual and endowed with the Holy Spirit then the spiritual Torah is now attainable in our obedience to it and in this is our life. But ONLY those that obey God's Torah. Without the Torah believers are left without a rudder to steer their ship through the trials and tribulations as well as the blessings of life and without the Torah to steer our lives and to order our faith, we are soon become shipwreck and die in our sin.
The Torah is our rudder. Without the Torah we are only drifting through life and God cannot, and WILL NOT use anyone who disobeys His commandments to Torah obedience.
This is the great sin of Gentiles.

We are saved by grace through faith, and only then can “the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us” (Rom 8:4). Only then are we set free from the law of sin and death. The moral law has fulfilled its purpose and the ineffective ceremonial law is discarded and replaced by the blood of Christ.

Brother, I cannot read the books of Romans and Hebrews and find your arguments plausible.


Doug

That's because you read it with a Gentile mindset Scripture written to a Jewish people. It cannot be done. It leads to the sin of heresy and the teaching by Gentiles that look at the Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset has created a great deal of heresy and it all comes down to one teaching which has done this. The Gentile teaching that the Jewish Torah is "abolished" and does not need to be obeyed.
That's saying God does not need to be obeyed.
But you and other Gentiles just can't make the connection.

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
Dt 28:15–19.

According to the Torah of God Gentiles that teach the "abolishment" of God's Torah are cursed.
Obey God's Torah and live or disobey God's Torah and die.
Class dismissed.