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Fred said:
Correct - the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
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The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not happen except during water baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14).
Fred said:
A Jew of that time period.
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Saul's conversion was some three years after Pentecost. Not really the "same period of time".
Fred said:
Stop there and go ahead and prove that "water" must refer to water baptism.
I've mentioned this to you before, but not surprisingly you dodged it.
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The thing is, you cannot stop there. All Scripture is authored by the same person: God. Therefore, no part of Scripture is any more valid, or perfect, or complete than any other. What that means is that it is vital to consider EVERY other passage of Scripture that deals with this subject before working up our doctrine.
1 Pet 3:21 says that it is in water baptism that we are saved.
Col 2:11-14 says that the Holy Spirit does the circumcising of our sins from us (salvation) during baptism. This has to be the same baptism that saves us in 1 Pet 3.
Rom 6:1-4 says that it is during baptism that we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection. Again, this has to be the same baptism that saves us in 1 Pet 3 and Col 2.
Mark 16:16 and Matt 28:19 instruct disciples to make more disciples by teaching them and baptizing them. These are actions the disciples are instructed to do. Man cannot constrain the Holy Spirit to take action, so this is not a command for us to have the Holy Spirit baptize the new disciple, but for the teacher to water baptize the new believer.
John 3:5 is also depicting the same construct. A person is born again into Christ through baptism (an act performed by one person on another) in water.
Acts 8:36 depicts Phillip teaching the Eunuch about salvation in Christ. And in his instruction there must have been the instruction to be baptized in water for salvation, because it is the Eunuch who brings it up as they are passing some water.
Acts 22:16 shows that Saul was required to get up and get baptized. If this were Spirit baptism, then the Spirit could reach him right there where he sat. But that is not what is recorded. The Spirit met Saul when he obeyed, and was baptized in water.
If Cornelius was saved when the Spirit fell on him and his family in power, then they would not have needed water immediately afterward. But that is exactly what Peter commanded. It is during water baptism that, as Acts 2:38 states, our sins are forgiven and the Holy Spirit enters into us to dwell in our hearts.
 
Doug Brents said:
The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not happen except during water baptism (Rom 6:1-4, Col 2:11-14).
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I'm not wasting my time reading the rest of your confusion when you are so way off from the start.
Cornelius and those with him were baptized with the Holy Spirit before their water baptism.
 
Fred said:
I'm not wasting my time reading the rest of your confusion when you are so way off from the start.
Cornelius and those with him were baptized with the Holy Spirit before their water baptism.
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Cornelius was given miraculous wonders (tongues, praise, etc.) by the Holy Spirit. But that is not the same as forgiveness of sin and the indwelling of the Spirit.

Read the rest of the Scriptures there. You might actually learn something from God.
 
Doug Brents said:
Cornelius was given miraculous wonders (tongues, praise, etc.) by the Holy Spirit. But that is not the same as forgiveness of sin and the indwelling of the Spirit.
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A clear dodge by you in that they were baptized with the Holy Spirit before their water baptism.

When those were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 they also had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The same with the Corenlius (see Acts 11:16-17).
 
Fred said:
The 120 were already baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4.

They didn't need to be baptized with the Holy Spirit again in Acts 2:38.

And yes, to be given the Holy Spirit is to be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4; cf. Acts 15:8)
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So you are saying there were two groups of Jews. One group had to fully obey, Peter’s command, and the other group only partially obeys, Peter’s command, correct? Why did Peter issue extra orders to the second group of Jews?
Are there two types of Jewish sinners that need to be saved with different commands ?
 
Fred said:
When those were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4 they also had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The same with the Corenlius (see Acts 11:16-17).
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Either the Apostles already had the indwelling, or they received it themselves when they were baptized along with the rest of the 3000 (we are not given that detail, along with many other details we might want to know). But it is clear from other Scriptures that the indwelling is part of what we receive during water baptism, as noted in the passages you refuse to accept that I posted above.
 
Fred said:
I did.

I entered the NT church first, and then I was water baptized.

That si what yoyu o0ught to do as well.
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I can tell by your opposition to Acts 2:38 baptism in the name of Jesus that you were never baptized in the name of Jesus. You just got wet, that’s all. No remission of sins by Jesus name.
 
Truther said:
I can tell by your opposition to Acts 2:38 baptism in the name of Jesus that you were never baptized in the name of Jesus. You just got wet, that’s all. No remission of sins by Jesus name.
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Total dodge of the Gentiles in Acts 10.
Typical.
 
Doug Brents said:
Either the Apostles already had the indwelling, or they received it themselves when they were baptized along with the rest of the 3000 (we are not given that detail, along with many other details we might want to know). But it is clear from other Scriptures that the indwelling is part of what we receive during water baptism, as noted in the passages you refuse to accept that I posted above.
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Next time you can try actually addressing what I wrote about.
 
The most bizarre thing that Christendom has fought against, more than even moral issues in it's history is this...


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...


I see it as a spiritual mind block.

This divides 1st century adherent believers today from the RCC and her Protestant daughters.

God has to set folks free from Satanic deception to be able to obey Acts 2:38.

This is a fact.
 
Fred said:
Next time you can try actually addressing what I wrote about.
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I did address it. You are wrong in assuming that the Apostles and the rest of the 120 in the upper room received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit just because they received miraculous works through the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:4. That is neither said, asserted, or a reasonable conclusion given the rest of Scripture. As I said, they either had the indwelling because Jesus had breathed on them (breathing the Spirit into them) in John 20:22, or they received the indwelling as did all the rest of the 3000 when they were baptized that day. Acts 2:38 says that the indwelling is the result of baptism (something they had to do, a physical act, thus in water). Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Jesus' death and resurrection. Rom 6:1-4 says the same.
 
Doug Brents said:
I did address it. You are wrong in assuming that the Apostles and the rest of the 120 in the upper room received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
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You are wrong.

Here's why.


Those in Acts 2:38 would receive the Holy Spirit.
Those in Acts 2:4 received the Holy Spirit.

Just as those in Acts 2:38 received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so too those in Acts 2:4 received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
Doug Brents said:
the indwelling of the Holy Spirit
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By having "the gift of the Holy Spirit" shows they had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The same is true with Cornelius and the other Gentiles with him. They received "the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 10:45) before their water baptism (Acts 10:48).

"The gift of the Holy Spirit" in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45 is the Holy Spirit
1. The same phrase
2. By the same author
3. In the same book
4. In the same context (the preaching of the Lordship and resurrection of Christ)

a. BDAG (3rd Edition): receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (dōrea, page 266).
b. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (dōrea, page 161).
c. A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament: gen. of that in which the gift consists; Acts 2:38 and 10:45 (dōrea, page 196).
d. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT): In Ac. the Spirit is called the dōrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (2:167, dōrea, Buchsel).
e. Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament (EDNT): The usage of dōrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (1:364, dōrea, G. Schneider).
 
Fred said:
You are wrong.

Here's why.


Those in Acts 2:38 would receive the Holy Spirit.
Those in Acts 2:4 received the Holy Spirit.

Just as those in Acts 2:38 received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so too those in Acts 2:4 received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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Not necessarily. The OT patriarchs, prophets, and judges performed miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit, but not a single one of them had the indwelling, because the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus died and was raised. So the miraculous works of the Spirit are not the same as the indwelling. The indwelling is promised to every single person who is in Christ in the NT age, but the working of miracles is not promised to everyone who is in Christ. The two are not the same. So we can only tell by the evidence which one is received in each of those passages. Acts 2:4 says He came on them in power (miraculous gifts), but none of the ones baptized in Acts 2:38 are said to have done miracles (indwelling). In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit came in power (miraculous gifts) first, and then, upon water baptism, the indwelling was given.
 
Doug Brents said:
Not necessarily. The OT patriarchs, prophets, and judges performed miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit, but not a single one of them had the indwelling, because the indwelling did not begin until after Jesus died and was raised.
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Acts 2:4
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:44-48

All the above took place after Jesus was raised.


Doug Brents said:
So the miraculous works of the Spirit are not the same as the indwelling.
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In the Church age if one has a gift of the Spirit it means they have the Spirit.

Doug Brents said:
The indwelling is promised to every single person who is in Christ in the NT age, but the working of miracles is not promised to everyone who is in Christ.
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Agree.

Doug Brents said:
The two are not the same.
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Can't have one without the other.

Doug Brents said:
So we can only tell by the evidence which one is received in each of those passages. Acts 2:4 says He came on them in power (miraculous gifts),
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They were baptized with the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:5)
And to be baptized with the Holy Spirit is to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

Doug Brents said:
but none of the ones baptized in Acts 2:38 are said to have done miracles (indwelling).
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Not necessary.


Doug Brents said:
In Acts 10, the Holy Spirit came in power (miraculous gifts) first,
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Nope. the reception of the Holy Spirit ook place first.


Doug Brents said:
and then, upon water baptism, the indwelling was given.
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Nope. That took place before water baptism for they already received the Holy Spirit.


Your understanding of pneumatology is a train wreck.
 

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