Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[praise_yeshua]

I agree. A power that absolutely determines another's decisions cannot be applied to a free will or it is not free. Sin cannot be applied to a person except when they choose it by their free will or the is no mens rea, no culpability in their non-choice doing what GOD has chosen them to do. sin can do that.

Adam's sin cannot enslave an innocent person, only their own free will decision / choice to sin can do that.

Denying that we were living at the time of our election or reprobation and personally, willfully, involved in becoming sinners pre-earth forces the theology about those decisions to be twisted and deformed to accommodate this mistake. Ideas that are known to be untrue must be accommodated somehow to make the theology work.

Now you're getting somewhere....

Deception can enslave. I've mention these verses

1Ti 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
1Ti 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Notice the appeal to being saved through "childbearing". Which is itself a reference to Jesus Christ. The fruit of the womb is His reward. This is an appeal to hope in Jesus Christ for the deceived.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No... you have not. You are a talk arounder until people tire and move on due to lack of a concrete answer.

There is no reason to get angry and make such a silly comments as this. I never avoid details. I prefer them.

The pre-existence of Jesus is not in debate. Of course he pre-existed. He was the Word before becoming man on earth, and is God as in the Trinity.

Glad you agree. I just simply stated the Truth.

Then explain why if Satan's fall in speaks of an event in the remote past, Why was Satan still powerful when Jesus showed up on the scene? Even with the kingdom of Israel under David and the presence of God in the temple, the power and influence of Satan is evident on nearly every page of Old Testament history.

Satan fell from his position. This doesn't indicate a necessary absence of power. Satan is powerful.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

No matter how you want to slice that loaf of bread you cannot tie the fall into before Genesis.

Sure I can. You have a false requirement that Satan be powerless if he fell before creation.[/COLOR]

 

[praise_yeshua]

Consider
That Jesus' statement refers to a time subsequent to His own. Since Satan was (and is) still alive and well-with respect to his ongoing opposition to the Church everywhere-it makes sense to see Satan's fall "like lightning from heaven" as a future event. The wording used by Luke ("I saw") was quite common in the Old Testament for introducing prophetic visions, especially in the book of Daniel

Really? So.... what is Satan's condition at this very moment? Is Satan still serving God?

Was Satan in the garden?

 

[TedT]

Gods foreknowledge knew the fall would occur and put things into place for the redemption of man.

IF GOD knew the details of the fall pre-creation, then HE knew who would end in hell pre-creation...and HE wants hell to be empty!!

Ezek 18:32 Berean Standard Bible
For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live! Yet GOD only does what it pleases HIM to do !
Ps 115:3
Berean Standard Bible
Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases.
HE takes no pleasure in death or hell but then HE supposedly creates those HE knows will end in eternal death in hell!! HE wants hell to be empty but then HE creates those people HE knows will end there??? A theological absurdity!! No mystery here, only a serious mistake on the interpretation of some verses that make HIM knowingly culpable for people ending in eternal hell by creating them knowing their fate and not themselves by their free will decision to rebuke HIM as a false god.

That HE would not create those He knows will end in hell is supported by 2 Peter 3:9
Berean Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
All HE had to do to achieve this desire of HIS for an empty hell would have been to NOT create those whom HE foreknew would chose the unforgivable sin! That HE did create them then implies most strongly that HE did not foreknow the free will decisions of HIS creation before HE created them. And that HE separated HIS creation into elect and reprobate people before the foundation of the world impies most strongly that we were there and our own free will decisions forced HIM to follow HIS holiness and make this separation, condemning some to hell!

So, should we twist HIS desire for an empty hell into something palatable to our theology or should we just pretend these verses do not impact our understanding of our creation and fall?? Anything rather than rethink our view of our creation, the election of only some, our fall and the nature of HIS omniscience, eh?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nope. My best bud, Enoch told me....

Jude speaks of Enoch and how Enoch saw the Lord Jesus coming with ten thousands of His saints. I wonder how Enoch knew this?

 

[praise_yeshua]

IF GOD knew the details of the fall pre-creation, then HE knew who would end in hell pre-creation...and HE wants hell to be empty!!

Ezek 18:32 Berean Standard Bible
For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live! Yet GOD only does what it pleases HIM to do !
Ps 115:3
Berean Standard Bible
Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases.
HE takes no pleasure in death or hell but then HE supposedly creates those HE knows will end in eternal death in hell!! HE wants hell to be empty but then HE creates those people HE knows will end there??? A theological absurdity!! No mystery here, only a serious mistake on the interpretation of some verses that make HIM knowingly culpable for people ending in eternal hell by creating them knowing their fate and not themselves by their free will decision to rebuke HIM as a false god.

That HE would not create those He knows will end in hell is supported by 2 Peter 3:9
Berean Standard Bible
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: ‘As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked should turn from their ways and live.

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
All HE had to do to achieve this desire of HIS for an empty hell would have been to NOT create those whom HE foreknew would chose the unforgivable sin! That HE did create them then implies most strongly that HE did not foreknow the free will decisions of HIS creation before HE created them. And that HE separated HIS creation into elect and reprobate people before the foundation of the world impies most strongly that we were there and our own free will decisions forced HIM to follow HIS holiness and make this separation, condemning some to hell!

So, should we twist HIS desire for an empty hell into something palatable to our theology or should we just pretend these verses do not impact our understanding of our creation and fall?? Anything rather than rethink our view of our creation, the election of only some, our fall and the nature of HIS omniscience, eh?

So you believe God gets everything He wants? I'm perfect example of that not being true at all.

There are many character flaws associated in man's traditional teaching of omniscience.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Where do you get this stuff. I never suggested anything about Genesis and angels. For all I know they were created several billion centuries before the plans for this ball of mud were ever considered.

I cannot deal with what you said because what you believe is so far out there that I cannot make sense of it.

I didn't realize that I had to state the obvious. Satan is an fallen angel. Angels preexist Genesis 1:1. Does it make better sense now?

Satan certainly fell before Genesis 1:1 because Satan deceived Eve.

Does that help at all?

I am NOT... repeat NOT.. a YEC believer. I do believe Adam came on the scene about 6000 year ago give or take. I am NOT an evolutionist. And I do not believe that this mud ball with the dandelions and pigweed is 4.5 Billion years old. (Could it be? Yes, but I dont think it is) (Note I did not say I dont know)

Was there some form of life before God mad man. Possibly.

I don't believe man has been on this earth more than about 10,000 or so years. Study the Greek OT. You will find there is a difference in the genealogies necessitating a longer than 6000 year view.

I don't believe Genesis details anything other than the origins of man and man's experience. God does what He wants to do. I believe He is Eternal. I believe His Character is written in being a "Creator". I believe God endlessly creates. In fact, that is one of the reason I believe Time never ends.

God has always "crafted" what He desires. Also, those things God creates.... ALSO FABRICATE. So you have a endless cycle of creation throughout all God's works.

 

[TedT]

Nope that’s false there was no death of anything prior to Adam’s sin. You bought into a lie.

Did not the serpent enter the garden with the sinful intent to pervert their relationship with GOD by enticing them with a lie? Why suppose that his sin did not make him liable to the consequences of sin, death and destruction? Are not those dead in their sins? Does it matter if they have not yet physically died?

Have you noticed that the serpent was a little more sinful than the sinful animals who were sinful lite so to speak, BEFORE Adam sinned? And that the animals were cursed a little less than the serpent but still cursed for their sin proving they were the living dead? The reprobate represented by the serpent and the animals were dead already (Jn 3:18) but the pronouncement of death for some of the elect was momentous, worthy of special mention!

The serpent and the animals did not die in Adam, only Adam, Eve and their elect (by their choice of faith in their Saviour) progeny. The rest die in their own sin and when they die is moot.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did not the serpent enter the garden with the sinful intent to pervert their relationship with GOD by enticing them with a lie? Why suppose that his sin did not make him liable to the consequences of sin, death and destruction? Are not those dead in their sins? Does it matter if they have not yet physically died?

Have you noticed that the serpent was a little more sinful than the sinful animals who were sinful lite so to speak, BEFORE Adam sinned? And that the animals were cursed a little less than the serpent but still cursed for their sin proving they were the living dead? The reprobate represented by the serpent and the animals were dead already (Jn 3:18) but the pronouncement of death for some of the elect was momentous, worthy of special mention!

The serpent and the animals did not die in Adam, only Adam, Eve and their elect (by their choice of faith in their Saviour) progeny. The rest die in their own sin and when they die is moot.

How does an animal sin in the manner Adam sinned?

 

[101G]

In the context of your statement that "Adam didn't have blood........."

What about the animals and the fish?

What about them? did the scripture say they had blood before the fall of man into sin? Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." Genesis 2:20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

living H2416 חַי chay (chah'-ee) adj.
1. alive.
2. (hence) raw (flesh).
3. fresh (plant, water, year), strong.
4. (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively.
[from H2421]
KJV: + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

101G.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What about them? did the scripture say they had blood before the fall of man into sin? Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof." Genesis 2:20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him."

living H2416 חַי chay (chah'-ee) adj.
1. alive.
2. (hence) raw (flesh).
3. fresh (plant, water, year), strong.
4. (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively.
[from H2421]
KJV: + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

101G.

Your reasoning for the "lack of blood" doesn't apply to animals. Yet animals have blood. You need to deal with the why of blood in such. If life exists in the necessity of blood, then you need to explain life for animals and such that have blood.

 

[101G]

When Adam disobeyed what?

take a guess. my God what is wrong with people today.

101G. (AKA the spiritual saboteur), (AKA the anti-christ)

 

[TedT]

If Adam did not din he would not of died

Yes, death is the result of sin and only as a result of sin...until you have to decide why supposedly innocent babies die without having sinned which throws a tangle into it that must be ignored or decide all death is a result of Adam's sin which, to make this work for the innocent, must mean they have come under the consequences of Adam's sin even while innocent, not a very nice set up for GOD to create for his beloved elect, is it?

 

[TedT]

adams sin brought death , destruction and decay to the entire creation.

Ever person under the wages of sin, ie, death, earned this wage for their personal free will choice to sin, not anybody else's choice or sin or free will is a mockery, light acts like dark and love acts like hate. <headshake, facepalm>

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, death is the result of sin and only as a result of sin...until you have to decide why supposedly innocent babies die without having sinned which throws a tangle into it that must be ignored or decide all death is a result of Adam's sin which, to make this work for the innocent, must mean they have come under the consequences of Adam's sin even while innocent, not a very nice set up for GOD to create for his beloved elect, is it?

The "elect" are a Bride. Like Adam had a bride in Eve.

You see this entirely wrong. A Bride is willing or their compliance is meaningless to the Husband.

 

[101G]

Your reasoning for the "lack of blood" doesn't apply to animals. Yet animals have blood. You need to deal with the why of blood in such. If life exists in the necessity of blood, then you need to explain life for animals and such that have blood.

listen closely, Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression? did you understand that in context of the WORLD

101G

 

[TedT]

How, exactly, did that happen. Are you suggesting that God allowed someone else to completely disrupt His creation? Who was that someone else? Clearly Adam did not possess any such power. That leaves only Satan. Did God give that power to Satan?

HE gave every person created in HIS image the power to disrupt HIS plan for creating a Church and a Bride for HIMself by giving us a free will to decide for ourselves if we wanted to join HIS church or to marry HIM.

To be created in HIS image means to be able to become HIS
bride and a member of HIS holy Church...to sin is to make yourself unable to become HIS bride or a member of HIS holy church unless you become redeemed by your Saviour and sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

 

[TedT]

If Death resulted from Adams sin... then was original intent to have man live forever?

If that was so then when did the idea come into being that a Savior (ieJesus) was going to be needed?

ImCo,
of course the original intent of creating life was for all life to live forever...but since we were created with a free will not enslaved to sin nor under any sinful influence such as earthly life, HE also knew there was a possibility that there might be rebellion to HIS plan for our creation, that is, to marry us to live in a holy, heavenly Church.

To offset the destructive power of sin over us, the Son chose to be our sacrifice if any of HIS elect should sin and hell was prepared for all those who might choose to repudiate HIM eternally which would put them outside of HIS merciful grace forever as reprobate.

When Christ chose to be the Saviour from enslaving sin, He chose to do so before the act of creation of anyone. If it was possible that no one would ever need His sacrifice for them, it was also possible some might need His sacrifice and some might put themselves outside of His sacrifice by their free will, against HIS whole reason for their creation. His willingness to be the sacrifice for our sin was part of the proclamation of the gospel preached to everyone ever created in HIS image before the foundation of the world, Col 1:23.

 

[TedT]

Nevertheless, taking into consideration that the Garden of Eden was a Garden and not a Universe

Has anyone intimated that the garden was a universe except you? I do not think the garden was a universe but that it was a part of the universe as part of the Earth which was founded by the creation which all the Sons of GOD saw that moved them to sing HIS praises, Job 38:7.

Your red herring pretending that I think the garden was the whole of Creation is thus brought to an end.

 

[praise_yeshua]

listen closely, Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Romans 5:13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Romans 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression? did you understand that in context of the WORLD

101G

I can read brother. I know what "world" means. Such is a traditional context of the doctrine of culpability and "Adam's federal headship".

Such doesn't deny the innocence of those hadn't sinned like Adam.

I'm talking specifically about your appeal to Adam having no blood till he sinned? Did I read that wrong?