Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?
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civic
Well-known member
Does the Bible Teach Death before Sin?
The Bible tells us very clearly that there was no death before sin from many passages. In fact, there are no Bible verses indicating there was death prior to sin.Death before sin is a problem for a perfect creation at the end of day six
The only reason some people try to insert death before sin is to fit man’s ideas of “millions of years” of death from a uniformitarian view of the fossil record into the Bible. But this makes a mockery of God’s statement that everything was very good in Genesis 1:31. Death, animals eating other animals, thorns, cancer, tumors, and so on are not very good, and yet these are found in those fossil layers.
This leads to compromising what God plainly says to accommodate fallible man’s ideas. Besides, the Scriptures reveal a global Flood in Genesis 6–8, after sin, which explains the vast majority of fossil layers. So, one need not appeal to billions of years to explain these layers. It is better to trust what God says:
Keep in mind that having death before sin also undermines the very gospel, where Jesus Christ stepped into history to conquer sin and death. In doing so, He graciously offered the free gift of salvation to all who receive him.
Conclusion
A secular view of deathKeep in mind there are primarily two views of history (secular and Christian) with two different authorities (man’s fallible reason apart from God and a perfect God) with conflicting views about the past.
According to the Bible, a perfect God created a perfect creation, and because of man’s sin, death and suffering came into the world. But through Christ, we look forward to a time when there will be no more pain or death or suffering (Revelation 21:4).
In a secular worldview, there has always been death. So, when Christians try to incorporate the secular idea of millions of years into their theology, two main questions arise. Was there really a change when Adam and Eve sinned? And what will heaven really be like then?
Genesis 3:14 indicates that animals, which were cursed along with the serpent, would no longer live forever but have a limited life (all the days of your life). This is the first hint of animal death. Since animals were cursed, they too will now die.answersingenesis
hope this helps !!!
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How, exactly, did that happen. Are you suggesting that God allowed someone else to completely disrupt His creation? Who was that someone else? Clearly Adam did not possess any such power. That leaves only Satan. Did God give that power to Satan?
MTMattie
Active member
Okay.
Here is a question to consider.
If Death resulted from Adams sin... then was original intent to have man live forever?
If that was so then when did the idea come into being that a Savior (ieJesus) was going to be needed?
I do not think there is a right or wrong answer....
I was always told and understood that at some point before the Spirit was hovering over the waters that "the plan" was all laid out basically.
There are only 2 options I see and that is either His foreknowledge allowed God to know that Adam would disobey.... (just like Lucifer)
or in His predestined plan God wanted man to fall, so He could ultimately save some.
Either way, God could have stopped man from sinning. But he did not.
So apperently God either expected Adam to sin, threrby bringing death to all, or death to all was in His original intent.
Where am I wrong?
civic
Well-known member
Romans 8
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[h] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.
22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
civic
Well-known member
God created man, not controlled man ( as in calvinism, determinism causing man to sin ) . Gods foreknowledge knew the fall would occur and put things into place for the redemption of man.
The Greek word that is translated as creation is ktisis. It can mean creation or creature. In this passage, the context is best accounted for with ktisis translated as creature, i.e, mankind, human beings. Translated as creation it makes no sense whatsoever. The only part of creation that "waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed" are human beings. Not even the animals are capable of such; and certainly nothing of the brute creation, the planets, stars, mountains, etc. have any capacity for that.
Verse 22 confirms that saying that not only human beings, generally, but we, i.e., God's people, are also waiting eagerly for the resurrection, for the "glory that will be revealed in us".
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Are you really preaching to the world that the "seed" of a plant was never intended to "die" before a new life "after its kind" began? Were there no "Seasons" on earth, where plant life died, and was reborn in the spring through its seed? My goodness Civic, what website do you get these ideas from?
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Are you really preaching that if Eve had not listened to the "other voice" in the garden that whales and all fish would just multiply but never die? That before Adam sinned, whales didn't eat krill, because that would kill Krill, and there was no death prior to Adam's sin? That grass never died, or was eaten by another animal?
That's out there even for you Civic.
Read Gen 3;19. That's where the physical death sentence (separation of body and soul) is explicitly pronounced on man. That is a fact. There is no getting away from that fact.
(Gen 3:19) In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
As for before the Fall, we can only speculate about Adam's physiological and spiritual composition. We know that Adam literally walked and communicated with God in the Garden but we know nothing about Adam's actual physiological and spiritual composition. We know that the Tree of Life offered eternal life but in what way was Adam lacking that already we can only speculate. I'm speculating that Adam had a soul. Don't all souls exist forever, whether in dormant state or whatever state? See how speculation can make you fly into all sorts of directions.
The Resurrection of Christ neutralizes that argument.
Conclusion: Let's stick to the facts and not let speculations prevail.
These are the facts: the death that God pronounced for man in Gen 3:19 was a separation of body and soul. As for plant life, it will be less yielding in its fruits.
(Gen 3:19) In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
I agree that a nature lifecycle does exist. Nevertheless, taking into consideration that the Garden of Eden was a Garden and not a Universe, there could have been physiological differences between the natural state of the Garden and the natural state of the Universe. That is pure speculation. I don't speculate as to the state of things before the Garden and the Fall as many are so eager to do.
civic
Well-known member
And thorns were a result of sin and its effect on creation.
Correct. People forget the fact that the Garden of Eden was a Garden where God was setting up a unique environment for this unique intriguing creature called Adam.
civic
Well-known member
Exactly- and we know death is not good and everything God created was good.
Allah, on the other hand, glorifies death. Did you see how @Pancho Frijoles was singing the praises of death as a top student of the god of death called allah.
MTMattie
Active member
So it was not then was original intent to have man live forever.
ERGO>>> the thread title "
Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?"
would have to be yes, because if Adam never sinned all would still be alive.Thats fine. That actually makes a lot of sense.
I appreciate your opinion here, and thanks for the reply. But the statement I was replying to was "there was no death of anything prior to Adam’s sin".
This is just foolishness to preach such a thing which requires "SEED" to continue the species.
So then, when you have toast for breakfast, does your face sweat? Or do you think this verse has a spiritual meaning that transcends the literal meaning of "sweat" and "bread"? I think God is speaking to us in parables here. But to each his own, Yes?
But wasn't Adam's flesh created from dirt before he sinned? This doesn't say that "BECAUSE" he sinned, his flesh shall return to the ground from which it was taken. Only that his LIFE would be more difficult "Till he returns to the ground" from which he was taken.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
You guys are trying to promote the philosophy that Adam and Eves flesh was created to live forever until they sinned.
But that isn't what the Scriptures are saying at all. They never took of the tree of life, not before they had sinned anyway. I think these Scriptures mean something, even if they contradict popular religious philosophies of the garden God placed us in.
True, the earth is in the Universe, but so is the moon, and Mars. However, there is very little evidence that God created life on either one of these planets, even though they are in the same universe. But He did, on the planet he placed Adam and Eve in, which is the same planet God placed you and I in. Outside our atmosphere, there is no known evidence of a "natural state" of life at all. At least none that I am aware of. If you have evidence of such a thing, I would be interested in seeing it.
I don't have to speculate, I can simply read what is written, without injecting popular traditions or philosophies promoted by the many different religious sects and businesses in the world/garden that God placed me in.
civic
Well-known member
Pure humanism , Darwinism , secularism etc…….
Gen 3:16 proves that there was no human death (separation of body and soul) before Adam's sin. Do you agree?
I already explained how I interpreted that passage. I wrote: "as for plant life, it will be less yielding in its fruits". Since you didn't argue against it, it looks like you agree with me.
So why did God decree the separation of Adam's soul from his body at that specific moment of time? He just felt like doing that one day? Is that what you're saying?
You forget about Adam's soul. Are you an soul annihilationist that believes that his soul is annihilated when he dies? You have a tendency to follow popular worldly philosophies. To each his own.
You forget that the Garden of Eden is a Garden. There could have been physiological differences between the natural state of the Garden and the natural state of the rest of the Earth and Universe.
Your philosophical belief of soul annihilationism is one of your worldly beliefs. To each his own.
civic
Well-known member
JWs believe in annihilationism too. He shares many of their false teachings
This seems to deny the goodness of GOD, and HIS being light as light destroys dark, it does not create it by any means. HE is also love which does not apply the effects of sinfulness to the innocent.
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