Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[praise_yeshua]

I encourage you to present arguments in support of your position. Here is one from my side:
Trilobites went extinct about 250 million of years before man appeared. That is a long time, regardless of any margin or error in datation by any technique.
Therefore, there was death, and a lot of it, before Adam. It was not the result of sin.


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Nonsense. All you did was make a claim without a single source of evidence. Man is always overstating what they claim they "know". You don't know anything about Trilobites other than what you found from a sources that deny any and all claims relative to God.

So actually present evidence itself instead of repeating the ravings of unbelievers.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Adam and Eve died physically, not because they sinned - at least not directly. They died because God ejected them from the Garden because they sinned. No longer having access to the tree of life, they could not eat the fruit and live forever (Gen 3:22). They died physically many years later, just as they were created to do. Nothing physical is eternal or immortal.

The death that they died when they sinned was spiritual. That is the same with all of us. Adam died spiritually the instant he sinned. We also died spiritually the instant we sinned. It was then that we became dead in trespasses and sins.

Hi Jim. Are you from the old forums?

The Scriptures are very clear. Death entered this world. At one time, it was external to this world. Paul establishes this fact in his preaching found recorded in the book we reference as "Romans".

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;

Adam and Eve were formed from the "dust of the earth". Which itself was a product of destruction.

Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

However, Adam was more than just dust. The "breath of God" that is the life of the flesh to Adam and Eve is Eternal. You may reference such as being "spiritual". However, there is no sense of comparison to what Adam to what we shall be in Christ.

Thusly, our lives in Christ is not a return to Adam was. It is the establish of what Christ has brought to us in the fullness of Eternal life.

Just a reminder. Death is also Eternal. It certainly doesn't involve the pleasures of life in Jesus Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This seems to deny the goodness of GOD, and HIS being light as light destroys dark, it does not create it by any means. HE is also love which does not apply the effects of sinfulness to the innocent.

In a overly simplistic representation model of God. You are correct. However, our God is extraordinarily complex.

Innocence is the lack of personal experience. Every man is born dependent upon his own father and mother to train them. Personal experience forms the distinct aspects of human experience that molds and prepares mankind to eventually embrace God or damns to similar experience of the unbelieving.

The "sin of Adam" created these circumstances.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How, exactly, did that happen. Are you suggesting that God allowed someone else to completely disrupt His creation? Who was that someone else? Clearly Adam did not possess any such power. That leaves only Satan. Did God give that power to Satan?

Satan only had influence. Influence is power but it is not an absolute in determination.

There is a difference between what God does personally and what He allows to happen among His creation. We have (Satan does too) innate qualties of existence. The framework belongs to God but this does not create any sense of culpability personally with God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Okay.

Here is a question to consider.

If Death resulted from Adams sin... then was original intent to have man live forever?

If that was so then when did the idea come into being that a Savior (ieJesus) was going to be needed?

I do not think there is a right or wrong answer....

I was always told and understood that at some point before the Spirit was hovering over the waters that "the plan" was all laid out basically.

There are only 2 options I see and that is either His foreknowledge allowed God to know that Adam would disobey.... (just like Lucifer)
or in His predestined plan God wanted man to fall, so He could ultimately save some.

Either way, God could have stopped man from sinning. But he did not.

So apperently God either expected Adam to sin, threrby bringing death to all, or death to all was in His original intent.

Where am I wrong?

Those in Christ Jesus was the "end goal" of original creation in Genesis 1. Not what you see entirely in Adam. Adam was a "work in progress". The image targeted for Adam was the Person of Jesus Christ. The future resurrection of our vile bodies will find perfection when we are raised in completely in His likeness.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

A complete and perfect "man" in the willing character of Jesus Christ.

This life is all about the development of the character of a willing servant. That and relationships. The process began in Adam and the greatness of Jesus Christ finished it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

from a uniformitarian view of the fossil record into the Bible. But this makes a mockery of God’s statement that everything was very good in Genesis 1:31. Death, animals eating other animals, thorns, cancer, tumors, and so on are not very good, and yet these are found in those fossil layers.​

Thorns are extraordinarily good, and animals eating other animals is good, as any kid who has watched “The Lion King” knows. (“We eat antelopes, but when we die, we become grass, and antelopes eat grass. So, we are all connected in the circle of life”)

We as doctors try to relieve pain from disease just as we all try to relieve pain from hunger.
In this search of relief there is growth and learnings… and God is glorified in the process.
But hunger is not evil, cancer is not evil, earthquakes are not evil, the asteroid that hit earth 60 million years ago was not evil.
Since these are not moral evils, they could not be caused by the disobedience of Adam.


I invite you to remember this beautiful passage in John chapter 9 verses 1 and 2.

“As Jesus passed by, He saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned. But it happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.”

So, what can we conclude here about Blindness? That it is not the result of any sin. It is an opportunity to love the blind, to design devices for the blind, to create the Braille alphabet, to diagnose and treat diseases and enhance the potential of every human being. In other words, physical blindness allows the works of God to be displayed in him. The works of love and wisdom are the works of God.
An ophthalmologist performing a surgery, as well as a teacher guiding the hand of the blind over the pages of a book in Braille, are doing the works of God and glorifying God.

On this basis, the thesis that thorns, fangs, carnivorous animals, tumors and cancer are wages of the sin of Adam is false.
I invite you all to reflect on this.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This seems to deny the goodness of GOD, and HIS being light as light destroys dark, it does not create it by any means. HE is also love which does not apply the effects of sinfulness to the innocent.

Hi Tedt

Welcome to the thread!
I agree with you. The Bible is clear in that God does not expect a man to pay for the sins of other man. God is just.
A baby with cancer is not paying for the sin of anyone.
And there is absolutely no way in that disobedience of Adam made Tyrannosaurus Rex carnivorous or the malaria mosquito a bloodsucker, as @civic has insinuated.

Paul is resorting to well known stories of Genesis like the fall of Adam to illustrate his point.
That’s exactly the purpose of myths. Myths exist to convey truths in an emotionally profound way, that they may be remembered and understood more easily. God used myths as a tool.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Darwinism, rationalism, secularism is the opposite of biblicism and truth.

Biblicism is as wrong as secularism or rationalism..
Reason and faith must work in harmony.
Let me share with you and our readers this extract from what God has spoken through the inspired Writings:

“Religion and science are the two wings ​

upon which man’s intelligence can soar into the heights, ​

with which the human soul can progress. ​

It is not possible to fly with one wing alone! ​

Should a man try to fly with the wing of religion alone ​

he would quickly fall into the quagmire of superstition,​

whilst on the other hand, with the wing of science alone ​

he would… fall into the despairing slough of materialism”​

​

(Abdu’l Bahá, Paris Talks)​

Christ and Paul alway interpret Genesis 1–11 as straightforward historical narrative according to the plain sense of the text (Matthew 24:37–38; Mark 10:6; Luke 11:49–51; 17:26–34; John 8:44; Acts 17:26; Romans 5:12–21; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45; 1 Timothy 2:13–14; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Hebrews 11:7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5–6; Jude 14).

Sure, because for their audiences those stories were considered historical narratives of some kind.
By the same token, God inspired Moses to give guidance on how priest should assess the leprosy of the walls of a house (Leviticus 14).
Ancient Israelites did not have access to the resources of science that we have now.

Genesis 1 then should be understood as historical narrative giving us an explanation of events that occurred in space-time history.

No. The fact that Jesus and his disciples made reference to those things as if they were historical events does not make them historical events.

The Bible elsewhere regards the days of creation as ordinary days (Exodus 20:11; 31:17).

God didn’t inspire the Bible to teach us cosmology, physics, geology or biology.
God used myths, parables, poems, and a variety of tools to teach spiritual truths.

 

[synergy]

No. The fact that Jesus and his disciples made reference to those things as if they were historical events does not make them historical events.

So we are not to believe what historical knowledge God imparts to his Prophets and Apostles but should consider that information as pagan myths??? Seriously?

First you deny the Cross, then you befriend and sing the praises of death, and now you desecrate God's word as pagan myths. It's time you stopped offering those sacrifices on the altar of your pagan god of death called Allah.

 

[Jim]

Hi Jim. Are you from the old forums?

The Scriptures are very clear. Death entered this world. At one time, it was external to this world. Paul establishes this fact in his preaching found recorded in the book we reference as "Romans".

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;.

Romans 5:12 is speaking of Spiritual death. Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is an integral (and essential) part of the creation.

 

[Jim]

Satan only had influence. Influence is power but it is not an absolute in determination.

There is a difference between what God does personally and what He allows to happen among His creation. We have (Satan does too) innate qualties of existence. The framework belongs to God but this does not create any sense of culpability personally with God.

You didn't answer my question. If, when Adam sinned, the whole universe was somehow changed, by whose power other than God's power was it changed? If it was changed by God, why? And if it was changed, what precisely about it was changed?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Romans 5:12 is speaking of Spiritual death. Physical death is not the result of sin. Physical death is an integral (and essential) part of the creation.

I like the way you're trying to deal with this. Thank you. However, we know this can not be true given the context of what Paul said.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death reigned over those who didn't sin like Adam.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You didn't answer my question. If, when Adam sinned, the whole universe was somehow changed, by whose power other than God's power was it changed? If it was changed by God, why? And if it was changed, what precisely about it was changed?

Thank you for narrowing the question. I didn't say anything about the universe changing. Death preexisted creation as defined in Genesis 1:1. Satan preexisted this world as referenced in Genesis 1:1.

God preexisted creation as defined or represented in Genesis 1:1.

Thusly, Genesis 1:1 doesn't represent ALL THINGS.

We also know through the writings of Paul that the entirely of creation was subjected together to vanity in hope. God "hoped" in man.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Vanity is the rewards of a natural life on this earth. You've experienced this yourself. I have too. Solomon contrasted the Eternal nature of truth and meaningfulness of life that exists in Jesus Christ against this vanity.

I don't know exactly how far to extend such an impact of sin upon mankind. I tend to apply such to our galaxy. I can go into more detail but the context of the book of Genesis is "man's beginnings".

 

[praise_yeshua]

So we are not to believe what historical knowledge God imparts to his Prophets and Apostles but should consider that information as pagan myths??? Seriously?

First you deny the Cross, then you befriend and sing the praises of death, and now you desecrate God's word as pagan myths. It's time you stopped offering those sacrifices on the altar of your pagan god of death called Allah.

To him, there is no context whatsoever to good and evil. Everything he believes is self serving.

 

[Studyman]

Pure humanism , Darwinism , secularism etc…….

Yes, Civic, I know you have your little judgment boxes to place everyone who doesn't adopt and help you promote your specific religious business. But to believe in the religion you have adopted and are now promoting, I would have to believe that God didn't know HE had created a snake that could talk and was in the garden. That God didn't know the snake would profess to know God, even quote some of His Words to deceive Eve. And that God didn't know Eve would talk to it and follow its teaching, instead of Gods. And that God didn't know Adam would trust in his wife over God before HE created them. And somehow, God was so angered and surprised about this development, that HE changed His entire creation to punish men, women and children for thousands of years, even His Own Son, because HE didn't know the mind of human beings that HE created, nor did HE know the end from the beginning.

For me, I believe God when HE says HE speaks to men in Parables. I believe in the Jesus "of the Bible" who teaches the Word of God HE brought to us, was Spiritual. I believe Paul when HE said the Law and Prophets were examples, written for our admonition.

So Jesus said you would call me humanist , Darwinist , secularist, Judaizer, unitarian, legalist, reprobate, and so on, if I believed and strived to live by Every Word of His God and my God, and worshipped God in Truth and Spirit as HE instructs. So when this world's religious business promoters, like you, start calling me names simply because I believe what is written, it is proof positive that I am on the right track, and is a huge blessing for me.

And right now I thank God, through His Glorias Son, the Christ Jesus, for the Blessings you provide for me.

 

[civic]

So we are not to believe what historical knowledge God imparts to his Prophets and Apostles but should consider that information as pagan myths??? Seriously?

First you deny the Cross, then you befriend and sing the praises of death, and now you desecrate God's word as pagan myths. It's time you stopped offering those sacrifices on the altar of your pagan god of death called Allah.

Yes like all the archeological discoveries over the centuries that prove the people and places in the bible are found to be true. The strata and fossil records proving the worldwide flood is true

 

[MTMattie]

Thank you for narrowing the question. I didn't say anything about the universe changing. Death preexisted creation as defined in Genesis 1:1.

How do you know this?

 

[synergy]

How do you know this?

Notice the word "Garden" in the phrase Garden of Eden. It is not called the Universe of Eden. What's happening in the Garden is not necessarily happening in the rest of the Earth and the Universe.

 

[praise_yeshua]

How do you know this?

Several reasons. I mentioned that that Satan preexisted this planet. The creation narrative of Genesis doesn't say anything about angels being created in the process of defining the existence of man in the narrative. Genesis was given to Moses to express to a people that had forgotten God. As such, it is not an exhaustive narrative all things God. Moses did not know everything relative to creation. In fact, God chided Job for this very fact

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

I can give more but this should suffice.

The age of this life we now have is very short. We haven't been around billions of years. In the context of God, it is very short. Man is not the "center" of the Universe. Such thoughts are nothing more than man's ego expressing itself.

 

[MTMattie]

Notice the word "Garden" in the phrase Garden of Eden. It is not called the Universe of Eden. What's happening in the Garden is not necessarily happening in the rest of the Earth and the Universe.

My question was because of this statement from @praise_yeshua" Death preexisted creation as defined in Genesis 1:1." post 53 above.

As to Adam and the "Garden". That was/is a story unto itself... and you are correct. Had nothing to do with the rest of the world or universe.