Do physical bodies die because of Adam's sin?

[praise_yeshua]

Yes like all the archeological discoveries over the centuries that prove the people and places in the bible are found to be true. The strata and fossil records proving the worldwide flood is true

There is a Netflix series that deals with some alternative narratives from various cultures throughout the world. Season 2 has recently been released and is interesting. The first episode deals with the flood narrative throughout the world. It is a good watch.

It is called Ancient Apocalypse.

 

[MTMattie]

Several reasons. I mentioned that that Satan preexisted this planet. The creation narrative of Genesis doesn't say anything about angels being created in the process of defining the existence of man in the narrative. Genesis was given to Moses to express to a people that had forgotten God. As such, it is not an exhaustive narrative all things God. Moses did not know everything relative to creation. In fact, God chided Job for this very fact

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

I can give more but this should suffice.

The age of this life we now have is very short. We haven't been around billions of years. In the context of God, it is very short. Man is not the "center" of the Universe. Such thoughts are nothing more than man's ego expressing itself.

Yep. We are but a generation in time..... but you have said nothing about death pre-existing Creation.

Of course Satan did. And he rebelled against God before Creation, IMO. But his fall came after... and that is all I am saying on that subject for it deserves a thread of its own.

You have no way of knowing what died, if anything, before the Spirit was out hovering over the waters. Unless you were there

I am certain I never read that in the Holy Book.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yep. We are but a generation in time..... but you have said nothing about death pre-existing Creation.

Sure I have. You don't understand what you're reading. Your thoughts are not true to the narrative God has given us.

Of course Satan did. And he rebelled against God before Creation, IMO. But his fall came after... and that is all I am saying on that subject for it deserves a thread of its own.

Prove it. In fact, we know it happened before creation. You know how? Jesus said that he beheld Satan fall. Such is proof of the preexistence of the Creator in Jesus Christ.

You have no way of knowing what died, if anything, before the Spirit was out hovering over the waters. Unless you were there View attachment 1180

I am certain I never read that in the Holy Book.

So you were there yourself?

So why don't you actually deal with what I've said. Where is the creation of angels detailed in the Genesis narrative and please don't pretend that Genesis 1:1 includes the creation of angels.....

 

[Jim]

I like the way you're trying to deal with this. Thank you. However, we know this can not be true given the context of what Paul said.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death reigned over those who didn't sin like Adam.

So what do you think it means that they "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression? Adam's transgression was that he disobeyed a direct command from God. That is God spoke to him directly and gave him a command not to eat of the tree of good and evil. He disobeyed. Those that had not sinned in that same way also sinned, just not in that same way. They had no direct commands from God. However, earlier in chapter 2, Paul spoke of the others, the Gentiles, that "when they, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus (vv. 14-16) Therefore, they didn't sin in the same way that Adam did, but they did sin. And judgement was/is meted out accordingly. So yes the died, but the died spiritually due to the sin. They did not die physically (biologically) due to sin. And so, as Paul says in verse 14 of chapter 5 that "sin indeed was in the world before the law was given", They sinned, they died spiritually.

Interestingly, Paul adds there, that "however sin is not counted where there is no law". But as I have noted, in chapter 2 Paul has already stated that there is always law, just not the law of Moses. So what can he possibly mean by that. I firmly believe that he is talking about the very young and those so mentally deficient they cannot understand and comprehend the consequences of either obedience or disobedience. The very young and the mentally deficient cannot and do not sin.

 

[Jim]

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Except for human beings, what does that even mean? There is no cognitive ability other than that in mankind to be made subject to vanity.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Just to be clear.

The word found in Genesis 1:1 is οὐρανός. Not heavens plural. In fact, the literally meaning is "sky".

There is zero indication that Genesis 1:1 is somehow the origin of all things.

 

[praise_yeshua]

So what do you think it means that they "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression? Adam's transgression was that he disobeyed a direct command from God. That is God spoke to him directly and gave him a command not to eat of the tree of good and evil. He disobeyed. Those that had not sinned in that same way also sinned, just not in that same way. They had no direct commands from God. However, earlier in chapter 2, Paul spoke of the others, the Gentiles, that "when they, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus (vv. 14-16) Therefore, they didn't sin in the same way that Adam did, but they did sin. And judgement was/is meted out accordingly. So yes the died, but the died spiritually due to the sin. They did not die physically (biologically) due to sin. And so, as Paul says in verse 14 of chapter 5 that "sin indeed was in the world before the law was given", They sinned, they died spiritually.

Interestingly, Paul adds there, that "however sin is not counted where there is no law". But as I have noted, in chapter 2 Paul has already stated that there is always law, just not the law of Moses. So what can he possibly mean by that. I firmly believe that he is talking about the very young and those so mentally deficient they cannot understand and comprehend the consequences of either obedience or disobedience. The very young and the mentally deficient cannot and do not sin.

Adam purposely sinned to save Eve. Adam knew what he was doing. Eve was deceived. Adam's sin wasn't about just disobeying God. It was about Adam's choice in Eve over God.

Abraham didn't live by the law of Moses. There are several different laws that have existed throughout human history among various people. Paul is establishing the "need" of the law to handle "law breakers". In other words, those who don't see things like others do.

Either way, Abel never sinned like Adam.

 

[101G]

Addressing the OP, 101G must agree with scripture. (A.) God made all things Good, (see Genesis 1:31). but as for man, Romans 8:18 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

so, to answer the OP, "that our physical bodies decay and die not because the sin of Adam and Eve, but because it is part of a natural process created by God." the sin was the natural process, ....... for Adam in the beginning did not have ... "Blood", which is the LIFE of the flesh, (see Leviticus 17:11a) for in sin was the natural processes began.

101G.

 

[101G]

• All plants and animals were already dying for million years before the appearance of man.
• Furthermore, there is no way man can transmit a genetic trait such as biological death to a tree or a whale.
• The spiritual principle taught in the Bible is that each person is responsible for his own sins. (Ezekiel 18:20)

101G must disagree with that assessment. because Man was Made on day 3 and on day 6 was the Genders made. so man/Adam was here before the animals as well as the plants. that's bible.

101G

 

[101G]

I enter this conversation with more questions than I have answers. I think, but cannot prove it that Adam gave his spirit back to God and I don't know if that spirit would have kept him alive after his body died. Or if that spirit would have kept his body alive. What I do know is God told him if you do this you will die. Christ got the spirit back for us. What I don't know is if the spirit Adam had was different or acted in a different way than our spirit. Or how our spirit will work. What I can't prove is that Adam gave back his spirit. Well, we know it was not an apple.

my God, NO, NO, NO, NO, no, Adam when he disobeyed was in BROKEN FELLOWSHIP with God, and not in separation as a son of God. hence the reason why he was TEMPORY ALIVE with BLOOD.
101G

 

[101G]

I encourage you to present arguments in support of your position. Here is one from my side:
Trilobites went extinct about 250 million of years before man appeared. That is a long time, regardless of any margin or error in datation by any technique.
Therefore, there was death, and a lot of it, before Adam. It was not the result of sin.


View attachment 1178

101G have a question, "HOW LONG WAS ADAM IN THE GARDEN ...... WITHOUT SIN", please post the scripture that shows how long he was in the garden even alone before Eve was brought forth.... book chapter and verse please.

101G.

 

[Jim]

Adam purposely sinned to save Eve.

Huh?

Adam knew what he was doing. Eve was deceived. Adam's sin wasn't about just disobeying God. It was about Adam's choice in Eve over God.

Abraham didn't live by the law of Moses. There are several different laws that have existed throughout human history among various people. Paul is establishing the "need" of the law to handle "law breakers". In other words, those who don't see things like others do.

He ate the fruit that God told him not to eat. That was a sin. If there were other sins, the bible doesn't mention them specifically.

Either way, Abel never sinned like Adam.

But he did sin (Rom 5:12) And so has everyone else.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Addressing the OP, 101G must agree with scripture. (A.) God made all things Good, (see Genesis 1:31). but as for man, Romans 8:18 "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"

so, to answer the OP, "that our physical bodies decay and die not because the sin of Adam and Eve, but because it is part of a natural process created by God." the sin was the natural process, ....... for Adam in the beginning did not have ... "Blood", which is the LIFE of the flesh, (see Leviticus 17:11a) for in sin was the natural processes began.

101G.

In the context of your statement that "Adam didn't have blood........."

What about the animals and the fish?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Huh?

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

It is about relationship. Adam loved Eve. What Adam did was both sin and a expression of his love for what God had gifted him. He loved the gift more than the "Giver". There was no deception for Adam. Eve was innocent. She was deceived just like you see in the Innocence of those who know nothing.

He ate the fruit that God told him not to eat. That was a sin. If there were other sins, the bible doesn't mention them specifically.

It was certain against what God had commanded but it was certainly more than this. What you see in the judgement of Adam was chastening from God.

But he did sin (Rom 5:12) And so has everyone else.

You haven't seen where I've dealt with this before but it very clear that Paul is talking about the current state of humanity. Not the state of Abel.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

He is quoting Psalm 14.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Notice the word "children". The world that then knew God (before the flood) then .... abandon God to the point only 8 people survived.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

[civic]

There is a Netflix series that deals with some alternative narratives from various cultures throughout the world. Season 2 has recently been released and is interesting. The first episode deals with the flood narrative throughout the world. It is a good watch.

It is called Ancient Apocalypse.

Thanks

 

[Peterlag]

my God, NO, NO, NO, NO, no, Adam when he disobeyed was in BROKEN FELLOWSHIP with God, and not in separation as a son of God. hence the reason why he was TEMPORY ALIVE with BLOOD.
101G

When Adam disobeyed what?

 

[TedT]

In a overly simplistic representation model of God. You are correct. However, our God is extraordinarily complex.

GOD, love and light are not mysteries uness a theology needs them to be...

 

[praise_yeshua]

GOD, love and light are not mysteries uness a theology needs them to be...

I didn't say anything about a mystery. Oversimplification doesn't require a mystery.

 

[MTMattie]

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• #63

Yep. We are but a generation in time..... but you have said nothing about death pre-existing Creation.

Sure I have. You don't understand what you're reading. Your thoughts are not true to the narrative God has given us.

No... you have not. You are a talk arounder until people tire and move on due to lack of a concrete answer.

Of course Satan did. And he rebelled against God before Creation, IMO. But his fall came after... and that is all I am saying on that subject for it deserves a thread of its own.

Prove it. In fact, we know it happened before creation. You know how? Jesus said that he beheld Satan fall. Such is proof of the preexistence of the Creator in Jesus Christ.

The pre-existence of Jesus is not in debate. Of course he pre-existed. He was the Word before becoming man on earth, and is God as in the Trinity.

Now you say ............................
You know how? Jesus said that he beheld Satan fall.... IS NOT PROOF.......

First: You say Jesus said he beheld Satan's fall.....
You say this was before creation....

Then explain why if Satan's fall in Luke 10:18 speaks of an event in the remote past, Why was Satan still powerful when Jesus showed up on the scene? Even with the kingdom of Israel under David and the presence of God in the temple, the power and influence of Satan is evident on nearly every page of Old Testament history.

No matter how you want to slice that loaf of bread you cannot tie the fall into before Genesis.

Consider
That Jesus' statement refers to a time subsequent to His own. Since Satan was (and is) still alive and well-with respect to his ongoing opposition to the Church everywhere-it makes sense to see Satan's fall "like lightning from heaven" as a future event.

The wording used by Luke ("I saw") was quite common in the Old Testament for introducing prophetic visions, especially in the book of Daniel (Daniel 4:10, 7:2, 7:4 , 7:6-7, 7:9 , 7:11, 7:13 7:21).

It seems quite clear that the rule of God began at the ministry of Jesus, but it is a rule in progress that will reach a final culmination at a future time. As the Old Testament repeatedly reminds us, and as Jesus affirmed in Luke 10:18, on that day the defeat of our cosmic enemy will be swift and final.

You have no way of knowing what died, if anything, before the Spirit was out hovering over the waters. Unless you were there View attachment 1180

I am certain I never read that in the Holy Book.

So you were there yourself?

Nope. My best bud, Enoch told me.

So why don't you actually deal with what I've said. Where is the creation of angels detailed in the Genesis narrative and please don't pretend that Genesis 1:1 includes the creation of angels.....

Where do you get this stuff. I never suggested anything about Genesis and angels. For all I know they were created several billion centuries before the plans for this ball of mud were ever considered.

I cannot deal with what you said because what you believe is so far out there that I cannot make sense of it.

I am NOT... repeat NOT.. a YEC believer. I do believe Adam came on the scene about 6000 year ago give or take. I am NOT an evolutionist. And I do not believe that this mud ball with the dandelions and pigweed is 4.5 Billion years old. (Could it be? Yes, but I dont think it is) (Note I did not say I dont know)

Was there some form of life before God mad man. Possibly.

And I do not believe that... in spite of the way it was written that God created everything here including here in 144 hours. Again another subject for another thread.

But, unlike you, I am open to being shown differently. And you have not shown me where before the Spirit was hovering over the water that anything died before that.

Want more references on Satan's fall... see Isaiah 14:12, Ezekiel 28:16 ,Revelation 12:7-9

 

[TedT]

Satan only had influence. Influence is power but it is not an absolute in determination.

I agree. A power that absolutely determines another's decisions cannot be applied to a free will or it is not free. Sin cannot be applied to a person except when they choose it by their free will or the is no mens rea, no culpability in their non-choice doing what GOD has chosen them to do. sin can do that.

Adam's sin cannot enslave an innocent person, only their own free will decision / choice to sin can do that.

Denying that we were living at the time of our election or reprobation and personally, willfully, involved in becoming sinners pre-earth forces the theology about those decisions to be twisted and deformed to accommodate this mistake. Ideas that are known to be untrue must be accommodated somehow to make the theology work.