Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[brightfame52]

Another scripture that more than indicates that God purposely created some men for destruction and wrath in the final day of Judgment is Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Its revealed here that the Sovereign God has the absolute right to make, create, fashion, construct, to author and appoint men to destruction, dishonor or disgrace.

The word dishonour is the greek word atimia and means:

disgrace, dishonor; a dishonorable use.

Now the word disgrace, the english word means:

the loss of respect, honor, or esteem; ignominy; shame:
the disgrace of criminals.

Which coincides with what God says in Daniel regarding the reprobate raised in the last day Dan 12:2

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Now they were created by God on purpose to suffer eternal shame and contempt !

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus Himself in a Messianic Psalm 69 prays a prayer against the reprobate, the vessels of wrath He fits for destruction vs 21-28

21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Jesus Himself in a Messianic Psalm 69 prays a prayer against the reprobate, the vessels of wrath He fits for destruction vs 21-28

Of course. They chose to be that way after being given a chance

 

[brightfame52]

Of course. They chose to be that way after being given a chance

Should the church pray for the reprobate and seek their salvation ?

 

[FreeInChrist]

Should the church pray for the reprobate and seek their salvation ?

Paul prayed for people to be saved (Rom 10:1), so the idea that we shouldn’t pray for someone’s salvation just isn’t biblical.


And honestly, if someone is already eternally doomed with no possibility of salvation, then prayer would be a waste of breath — which says more about that theology than it does about prayer.


Scripture tells us to pray for all, not guess who God supposedly pre-rejected.


So yes — we pray. Period.

 

[brightfame52]

Paul prayed for people to be saved (Rom 10:1),

That would have been for the election of grace, the vessels of mercy. Paul would not have prayed for them to be saved he just wrote about being by God made vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction in Rom 9, he wasnt stupid

 

[Doug Brents]

Should the church pray for the reprobate and seek their salvation ?

Absolutely we should (Matt 5:44, 2 Tim 2:25, Eze 36:26).

 

[brightfame52]

Absolutely we should (Matt 5:44, 2 Tim 2:25, Eze 36:26).

okay and ? Should the church pray for the salvation of people God created for destruction and wrath ?

 

[Doug Brents]

okay and ? Should the church pray for the salvation of people God created for destruction and wrath ?

Absolutely we should. We are commanded to pray for those who persecute us, pray that they be opened to the Truth (as I pray for you to be), pray that God remove the heart of stone, and give them a heart of flesh (making them part of the elect).

Your question betrays the falsehood of your beliefs. You see, God desires the salvation of everyone (2 Pet 3:9), and because we know that, we also know that He did NOT create some to be saved and some to be condemned. He created everyone with the ability to choose Him and be saved. But He also knows that not everyone will choose Him (because He knew the end from the beginning), so He chose to allow them to be condemned.

 

[brightfame52]

Absolutely we should.

That would be absolutely foolish and not according to the guidelines of praying according to the will of God 1 Jn 5:14

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

 

[brightfame52]

We are commanded to pray for those who persecute us,

okay, that person may be an elect vessel of mercy, like saul was when he persecuted believers 1 Cor 15 9

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Thats not praying for the reprobate God created for wrath and destruction.

 

[Doug Brents]

That would be absolutely foolish and not according to the guidelines of praying according to the will of God 1 Jn 5:14

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

That is a very narrow way of thinking that ignores so much of Scripture (specifically those passages I just cited). We know that God's will is for us to pray for everyone, including any pagan leaders of countries/states/counties/cities, etc. We are also to pray for our persecutors, our enemies, and those who have not yet submitted to God and accepted His Gospel. It is never foolishness to do as God has commanded us.

okay, that person may be an elect vessel of mercy, like saul was when he persecuted believers 1 Cor 15 9

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Thats not praying for the reprobate God created for wrath and destruction.

Anyone could be saved, and anyone could be condemned. Saul could have refused to accept God's commission, continued to persecute the Church, and never become an Apostle of Christ. Judas could have repented and not killed Himself (Judas' sin was no worse than Peter's, and Peter was forgiven but Judas was not still alive to seek forgiveness).

It is ALWAYS good, and in fact is our duty, to pray for any and all who are sinful and that they will come to repentance and knowledge of the Truth. This is my prayer for you as well.

 

[brightfame52]

That is a very narrow way of thinking that ignores so much of Scripture (specifically those passages I just cited). We know that God's will is for us to pray for everyone, including any pagan leaders of countries/states/counties/cities, etc. We are also to pray for our persecutors, our enemies, and those who have not yet submitted to God and accepted His Gospel. It is never foolishness to do as God has commanded us.

Anyone could be saved, and anyone could be condemned. Saul could have refused to accept God's commission, continued to persecute the Church, and never become an Apostle of Christ. Judas could have repented and not killed Himself (Judas' sin was no worse than Peter's, and Peter was forgiven but Judas was not still alive to seek forgiveness).

It is ALWAYS good, and in fact is our duty, to pray for any and all who are sinful and that they will come to repentance and knowledge of the Truth. This is my prayer for you as well.

God made the vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction in hell. Why would He want believers to pray for them and go against His Purpose ?

 

[Doug Brents]

God made the vessels of wrath to fit them for destruction in hell. Why would He want believers to pray for them and go against His Purpose ?

It is not His purpose to condemn anyone to Hell (2 Pet 3:9). So for you to assume that you know His will in this, and that His will is to condemn them from birth (Creation) is preposterous. He wants everyone to be saved that will accept Him, so He wants us to pray that everyone will submit to Him. It is contrary to His will for you to assume that there is no hope for people, and so refuse to pray for them.

 

[brightfame52]

It is not His purpose to condemn anyone to Hell (2 Pet 3:9)

Thats not what 2 Pet 3:9 says. Peter had just wrote 2 Pet 3 2-8

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Perdition of ungodly men

They aren't going to be saved, they are sons of perdition, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

Why would God be willing fr them to come to repentance as He is with the beloved of Vs 9

They are being kept for hell 2nd Pet 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God is willing that these shall perish and be punished. Theyre reserved for it

 

[brightfame52]

(2 Pet 3:9). So for you to assume that you know His will in this, and that His will is to condemn them from birth (Creation) is preposterous.

How many times in your life has it been pointed out to you that 2 Pet 3:9 is about the elect ? over 100 ?

 

[Doug Brents]

Thats not what 2 Pet 3:9 says. Peter had just wrote 2 Pet 3 2-8

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Perdition of ungodly men

They aren't going to be saved, they are sons of perdition, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.

Why would God be willing fr them to come to repentance as He is with the beloved of Vs 9

They are being kept for hell 2nd Pet 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

God is willing that these shall perish and be punished. Theyre reserved for it

What does the "perdition of ungodly men" mean? Perdition means eternal destruction. But what about "ungodly"? It refers to those who refuse to accept the Lordship of God. Not that they were made to be without God, but that they choose to refuse God. It is these who, as verse 4 says, ridicule God and His patience. But as God says, He doesn't want any of them to be destroyed (condemned to Hell), but wants them all to come to repentance.

 

[Doug Brents]

How many times in your life has it been pointed out to you that 2 Pet 3:9 is about the elect ? over 100 ?

Never from someone who honestly interprets Scripture. As you pointed out above, 2 Pet 3:2-8 is about those who refuse God, so why do you assume that the "any" and "all" in verse 9 is only about the elect.

 

[brightfame52]

What does the "perdition of ungodly men" mean?

They going to hell

 

[brightfame52]

Never from someone who honestly interprets Scripture.

God knows how many times