yes
Did God, forsake Jesus on the cross?
- Thread starter MatthewG
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
Here I disagree--
As darkness descended from 12:00 to 3:00 p.m. the day Christ died, the Son reasoned, “O my God, I cry in the daytime, but Thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent…Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them” (Psa. 22:2,4). Here we have the innermost thoughts of Christ as He hung on the Cross. It is the only place in the Word of God where we are told what the Savior was actually thinking as darkness fell over Palestine. Only the Spirit of God could have given us this remarkable revelation through the prophet. The Son reasoned with the Father, “Our fathers trusted in Thee: they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.” As the Son pondered the history of His people, He recalled how Samson was delivered from the hand of the Philistines; Daniel from the mouths of hungry lions; and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. But there would be no deliverance for the Son, who was foreordained to suffer for the sins of His people, indeed for the sins of the world!
The Son answered His own question as to why He was forsaken of the Father in verse 3: “But Thou art holy, O Thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.” The Father is holy, which speaks of His moral excellence. Sin is, without exception, a violation of His holiness. Our finite minds cannot begin to take in the majesty and holiness of God. He is infinitely pure. This helps us to understand the purpose for the veil in the tabernacle; it separated a holy God from His unholy people. Both King Uzziah and Isaiah had an encounter with God’s holiness with totally different results.
“In the year that King Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke” (Isa. 6:1-4).
During the years that Uzziah reigned, he led Judah in a program of peace and prosperity. But while the nation prospered materially, it was bankrupt spiritually. Note that in the year Uzziah died Isaiah “also” saw the Lord sitting upon His throne. This strongly suggests that Uzziah had been exposed to the holiness of God, but with catastrophic consequences. Although the king had done that which was right in the sight of the Lord, he had foolishly intruded into the priest’s office by entering the temple and burning incense on the altar. Uzziah was stricken instantly with leprosy and died shortly thereafter for his intrusion into the holy things of God (II Chron. 26:16-23).
One sin brought death and banished Adam and Eve from the garden. One sin barred Moses from entering the Promised Land. One sin ended the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. You see, a right view of the holiness of God leads to a right view of sin. When Isaiah came into the presence of God and heard the Seraphims cry to one another “holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts,” and felt the posts of the door move at his voice, this was Isaiah’s reaction: “Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.” Because Isaiah had the proper view of the holiness of God, he lived, and had his iniquity taken away, and his sin purged (Hebrew kaòphar or atoned—Isa. 6:5-7).
Since sin is a violation of God’s holiness, the Father could not look upon His Son who was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Christ bore the burden of our sins alone. As despair visited like an unwelcome friend, the Savior reasoned, “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.” The term “worm” in this passage is the Hebrew word tola. The tola was a small maggot, specifically, the crimson grub. In ancient times they were placed in a bowl and crushed to produce a scarlet dye. As we know, Solomon robed the daughters of Israel in scarlet. May we suggest that the analogy we are to draw from the tola is this: the weight of Israel’s sins (and ours) crushed the life of Christ, who shed His precious blood that we might wear the garments of salvation.
THE PHYSICAL SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST
“Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and Thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me” (Psa. 22:12-17).
It is interesting how many references there are to animals in Psalm 22—the bull, lion, dog, unicorn, etc. Those who were responsible for the crucifixion were like the beasts of the field. They were cunning, vicious, and methodically stalked their prey. The strong bulls of Bashan undoubtedly refer to the religious leaders in Israel, who sought to gore the Lord with their horns of hate (Luke 23:8-21). Like the beast of the field that taunts it prey before killing it, these wicked leaders scoffed:
“He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the Cross, and we will believe Him.He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said, I am the Son of God” (Matt. 27:42,43). Thankfully, the Savior remained upon the Cross, for had He come down the world would have been swept into the lake of fire forever to satisfy the holiness and justice of God. Christ never wavered in His resolve to complete the work of redemption. The above clearly shows that these religious leaders were not only ignorant of the prediction of the Cross, they also had no comprehension whatsoever of the significance of Calvary.
Death by crucifixion was the death of deaths. The victim’s arms were outstretched and nails were driven through the palm of the hands. Then they tied off the wrists so the nails wouldn’t tear through the victim’s hands. Next, one foot was placed on top of the other and a large spike was driven through both feet. Hence, “they pierced my hands and my feet.” This was only the beginning of sorrows, for death by crucifixion was a slow excruciating process that took two or three days. Three rusty nails secured our redemption—one fastened the law to the Cross, one fastened the sins of the world to the Cross, and one fastened self to the Cross (Col. 2:14; II Cor. 5:14-19; Gal. 2:20).
While not a bone in our Lord’s body was broken, it does appear that when the Cross was placed into its slot the Savior’s arms were dislocated from His shoulders, based upon the statement “all my bones are out of joint.” Hanging by outstretched arms placed such tremendous pressure upon the lungs that it gradually became more and more difficult to breathe. To do so the victim had to push himself up by his feet to inhale. As the carbon dioxide levels increased in the body, the victim began to suffer from pulmonary edema, eventually dying from either a cardiac arrest or suffocation.
Interestingly, the Savior died within a matter of hours after being placed upon the Cross. In His own words He states, “my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels” (vs. 14). Could it be that the Savior died of a broken heart over the sins of the world? As the moment of His death approached, the Son prayed to the Father:
“But be not Thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste Thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog [Gentiles]” (Psa. 22:19,20).
It was the Savior’s desire to voluntarily give His life for the sins of the world and not have it ended by the sword of godless Gentiles. The Father graciously granted His Son’s request, for we read in the gospel according to John, the Savior had already given up the ghost before the sword touched His side: “Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with Him.But when they came to Jesus, and saw that He was dead already, they brake not His legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced His side, and forthwith came there out blood and water” (John 19:32-34).
PRACTICAL LESSONS FOR YOU AND ME
While the word of man is as unstable as water, the Word of God is always accurate and true, as we have seen from the prediction of the Cross and the actual fulfillment of the events nearly 1,000 years later. God’s Word is truth. So when we read a passage such as the following we can count on what is said to be true. “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame” (I Cor. 15:33,34).
The context of this passage is a warning not to adopt the ways of the world. Since the world had rejected the resurrection, their philosophy was to eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. Those of the household of faith are appalled at such reasoning. But God says, be not deceived, evil associations gradually destroy good morals. In other words, if you entangle yourself with the world, before long its influence will cause you to question and deny the Word of God. Consequently, sin and the condoning of sinful behavior is displeasing to God. The Corinthians are a prime example of failing to heed this warning, but let us not be guilty of the same (I Cor. 5:1-13; 6:1-8,13-18; 11:20-22).
Psalm 22 teaches us that there is a conflict between good and evil in the world. Christ was the very embodiment of everything that is good and righteous. His enemies, on the other hand, were given to lies and hypocrisy. They hated Him without a cause. Therefore, we should not be surprised when the world hates us without a cause for standing for the truth of the gospel.
The Prediction of the Cross
Call me old fashioned, but I still prefer to sing the old hymns of the faith. And for good reason: they are objective, that is, Christ is the primary object of the message. If you listen carefully, most contemporary Christian music is subjective. It emphasizes what the believer has done for the Savi
bereanbiblesociety.org
Johann
Well-known member
THE LAST WORDS OF JESUS CHRISTHere I disagree--
As darkness descended from 12:00 to 3:00 p.m. the day Christ died, the Son reasoned, “O my God, I cry in the daytime, but Thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent…Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them” (Psa. 22:2,4). Here we have the innermost thoughts of Christ as He hung on the Cross. It is the only place in the Word of God where we are told what the Savior was actually thinking as darkness fell over Palestine. Only the Spirit of God could have given us this remarkable revelation through the prophet. The Son reasoned with the Father, “Our fathers trusted in Thee: they trusted, and Thou didst deliver them.” As the Son pondered the history of His people, He recalled how Samson was delivered from the hand of the Philistines; Daniel from the mouths of hungry lions; and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace. But there would be no deliverance for the Son, who was foreordained to suffer for the sins of His people, indeed for the sins of the world!
The Son answered His own question as to why He was forsaken of the Father in verse 3: “But Thou art holy, O Thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.” The Father is holy, which speaks of His moral excellence. Sin is, without exception, a violation of His holiness. Our finite minds cannot begin to take in the majesty and holiness of God. He is infinitely pure. This helps us to understand the purpose for the veil in the tabernacle; it separated a holy God from His unholy people. Both King Uzziah and Isaiah had an encounter with God’s holiness with totally different results.
“In the year that King Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and His train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke” (Isa. 6:1-4).
During the years that Uzziah reigned, he led Judah in a program of peace and prosperity. But while the nation prospered materially, it was bankrupt spiritually. Note that in the year Uzziah died Isaiah “also” saw the Lord sitting upon His throne. This strongly suggests that Uzziah had been exposed to the holiness of God, but with catastrophic consequences. Although the king had done that which was right in the sight of the Lord, he had foolishly intruded into the priest’s office by entering the temple and burning incense on the altar. Uzziah was stricken instantly with leprosy and died shortly thereafter for his intrusion into the holy things of God (II Chron. 26:16-23).
One sin brought death and banished Adam and Eve from the garden. One sin barred Moses from entering the Promised Land. One sin ended the lives of Ananias and Sapphira. You see, a right view of the holiness of God leads to a right view of sin. When Isaiah came into the presence of God and heard the Seraphims cry to one another “holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts,” and felt the posts of the door move at his voice, this was Isaiah’s reaction: “Then said I, Woe is me! For I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.” Because Isaiah had the proper view of the holiness of God, he lived, and had his iniquity taken away, and his sin purged (Hebrew kaòphar or atoned—Isa. 6:5-7).
Since sin is a violation of God’s holiness, the Father could not look upon His Son who was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. Christ bore the burden of our sins alone. As despair visited like an unwelcome friend, the Savior reasoned, “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.” The term “worm” in this passage is the Hebrew word tola. The tola was a small maggot, specifically, the crimson grub. In ancient times they were placed in a bowl and crushed to produce a scarlet dye. As we know, Solomon robed the daughters of Israel in scarlet. May we suggest that the analogy we are to draw from the tola is this: the weight of Israel’s sins (and ours) crushed the life of Christ, who shed His precious blood that we might wear the garments of salvation.
THE PHYSICAL SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST
“Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and Thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me” (Psa. 22:12-17).
It is interesting how many references there are to animals in Psalm 22—the bull, lion, dog, unicorn, etc. Those who were responsible for the crucifixion were like the beasts of the field. They were cunning, vicious, and methodically stalked their prey. The strong bulls of Bashan undoubtedly refer to the religious leaders in Israel, who sought to gore the Lord with their horns of hate (Luke 23:8-21). Like the beast of the field that taunts it prey before killing it, these wicked leaders scoffed:
“He saved others; Himself He cannot save. If He be the King of Israel, let Him now come down from the Cross, and we will believe Him.He trusted in God; let Him deliver Him now, if He will have Him: for He said, I am the Son of God” (Matt. 27:42,43). Thankfully, the Savior remained upon the Cross, for had He come down the world would have been swept into the lake of fire forever to satisfy the holiness and justice of God. Christ never wavered in His resolve to complete the work of redemption. The above clearly shows that these religious leaders were not only ignorant of the prediction of the Cross, they also had no comprehension whatsoever of the significance of Calvary.
Death by crucifixion was the death of deaths. The victim’s arms were outstretched and nails were driven through the palm of the hands. Then they tied off the wrists so the nails wouldn’t tear through the victim’s hands. Next, one foot was placed on top of the other and a large spike was driven through both feet. Hence, “they pierced my hands and my feet.” This was only the beginning of sorrows, for death by crucifixion was a slow excruciating process that took two or three days. Three rusty nails secured our redemption—one fastened the law to the Cross, one fastened the sins of the world to the Cross, and one fastened self to the Cross (Col. 2:14; II Cor. 5:14-19; Gal. 2:20).
While not a bone in our Lord’s body was broken, it does appear that when the Cross was placed into its slot the Savior’s arms were dislocated from His shoulders, based upon the statement “all my bones are out of joint.” Hanging by outstretched arms placed such tremendous pressure upon the lungs that it gradually became more and more difficult to breathe. To do so the victim had to push himself up by his feet to inhale. As the carbon dioxide levels increased in the body, the victim began to suffer from pulmonary edema, eventually dying from either a cardiac arrest or suffocation.
Interestingly, the Savior died within a matter of hours after being placed upon the Cross. In His own words He states, “my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels” (vs. 14). Could it be that the Savior died of a broken heart over the sins of the world? As the moment of His death approached, the Son prayed to the Father:
“But be not Thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste Thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog [Gentiles]” (Psa. 22:19,20).
It was the Savior’s desire to voluntarily give His life for the sins of the world and not have it ended by the sword of godless Gentiles. The Father graciously granted His Son’s request, for we read in the gospel according to John, the Savior had already given up the ghost before the sword touched His side: “Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with Him.But when they came to Jesus, and saw that He was dead already, they brake not His legs. But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced His side, and forthwith came there out blood and water” (John 19:32-34).
PRACTICAL LESSONS FOR YOU AND ME
While the word of man is as unstable as water, the Word of God is always accurate and true, as we have seen from the prediction of the Cross and the actual fulfillment of the events nearly 1,000 years later. God’s Word is truth. So when we read a passage such as the following we can count on what is said to be true. “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame” (I Cor. 15:33,34).
The context of this passage is a warning not to adopt the ways of the world. Since the world had rejected the resurrection, their philosophy was to eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. Those of the household of faith are appalled at such reasoning. But God says, be not deceived, evil associations gradually destroy good morals. In other words, if you entangle yourself with the world, before long its influence will cause you to question and deny the Word of God. Consequently, sin and the condoning of sinful behavior is displeasing to God. The Corinthians are a prime example of failing to heed this warning, but let us not be guilty of the same (I Cor. 5:1-13; 6:1-8,13-18; 11:20-22).
Psalm 22 teaches us that there is a conflict between good and evil in the world. Christ was the very embodiment of everything that is good and righteous. His enemies, on the other hand, were given to lies and hypocrisy. They hated Him without a cause. Therefore, we should not be surprised when the world hates us without a cause for standing for the truth of the gospel.
The Prediction of the Cross
Call me old fashioned, but I still prefer to sing the old hymns of the faith. And for good reason: they are objective, that is, Christ is the primary object of the message. If you listen carefully, most contemporary Christian music is subjective. It emphasizes what the believer has done for the Savi
KNOWING WHERE AND WHY HE LAST SPOKE
“[The accusers] had certain questions against him of their own superstition,
and of one Jesus, which was dead, whom Paul affirmed to be alive.”
~ Acts 25:19
1. Jesus Christ is Lord
a. Jesus Christ is the great God and our Lord and Saviour - Titus 2:13 (Isa 43:3,11,15)
b. The King eternal, Lord of lords, only Potentate, the only wise God - 1 Timothy 1:17, 6:15
c. How do we know Jesus? What did he say? What were his last words?
2. 7 Things Jesus Said on the Cross
a. “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” - Luke 23:34
b. “Woman, behold thy son! ... Behold thy mother” - John 19:26-27
c. “To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” - Luke 23:43
d. “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” - Matt 27:46, Mark 15:34
e. “I thirst” - John 19:28 (Matt 27:48)
f. “It is finished” - John 19:30
g. “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit” - Luke 23:46
h. These are not the last words. How do we henceforth know Jesus? 2 Cor 5:15-6
3. Jesus is Risen
a. We tend to think of Jesus as the 1st century Jew who died, but he is risen!
b. “All power ...” - Matt 28:18-20; “These signs shall follow ...” Mk 16:15-19
c. “O fools” - Lk 24:25-26 (1 Pet 1:11), “tarry ye in Jerusalem, until... power...” - Lk 24:49
d. “whosoever sins ye remit ...” - John 20:23, “Come and dine.” - John 21:12, 25
e. After 40 days of speaking he ascended to heaven - Acts 1:4-9
f. We read no more about Jesus speaking to the kingdom apostles, until Revelation.
4. Jesus to Paul Last of All
a. Paul affirmed Jesus to be alive (because he spoke to him) - Acts 25:19
b. “Last of all he was seen of me” - 1 Cor 15:8
c. Jesus started speaking to Paul near Damascus - Acts 9:6, 26:14-18
d. Jesus spoke to him multiple times - Acts 18:9-11, 22:17
e. Jesus spoke to him at times unrecorded - Acts 20:35, 1 Cor 11:23, 2 Cor 12:1
f. Jesus spoke to and through Paul - 1 Th 2:13, 4:2, 1 Tim 6:3
g. Last words of Jesus? “Hear Paul’s witness to the Romans” - Acts 23:11, 2 Tim 4:17
h. “Jesus speaks to me today” - if not through inspired scripture, beware of blasphemy.
5. What Jesus Said
a. Jesus gave Paul mystery information - 2 Cor 12:9, Eph 3:1-4, Col 1:27
b. Christ works in you, as his body - Rom 8:9-11, 16:25, 1 Th 3:11-13
c. Until Christ be formed in you, hear him ... - Gal 4:19, Eph 3:17, 4:20-21, Col 3:16
d. The last words of Jesus Christ were given to you, his body. Col 1:25
e. Consider what I say, and the Lord ... be with you - 2 Tim 2:7, 4:17,4:22
Well there still stands two things against your view
The fact that Psalm 22 states he did not forsake him
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Neither hath he hid his face from him;
But when he cried unto him, he heard.
The Holy Bible: King James Version (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version.; Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 22:24.
and the fact God was in Christ reconciling the world
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV 1900) — 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
How he could be forsaking him while in him I cannot see
Theologically additionally such a forsaking would introduce a separation in the Godhead fracturing the trinity and the unity that is in it
civic
Well-known member
Yes there is a huge contradiction with PSA.
1-God was in Christ reconciling the world therefor you would have God forsaking Himself.
2-Jesus made it clear as did the Psalmist that God did not forsake Him from several passages.
Either way one tries to slice it it comes up with an empty and contradictory claim they cannot reconcile with God.
civic
Well-known member
bingo
consider also
Christ comes down on the side of forgiveness
Luke 23:34 (KJV 1900) — 34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
but the Father cannot forgive and must exact punishment
Johann
Well-known member
Here is Heinrich Meyer and want you to note the different opinions-from different scholars.
Mat 27:46 Ἀνεβόησεν] He cried aloud. See Winer, de verbor. cum praepos. compos, usu, 1838, III. p. 6 f.; comp. Luk 9:38; LXX. and Apocr., Herod., Plato.
The circumstance of the following exclamation being given in Hebrew) is sufficiently and naturally enough accounted for by the jeering language of Mat 27:47, which language is understood to be suggested by the sound of the Hebrew words recorded in our present passage.
σαβαχθανί] Chald.: שְׁבַקְתַּנִי = the Heb. עֲזַבְתָּנִי.
Jesus gives vent to His feelings in the opening words of the twenty-second Psalm. We have here, however, the purely human feeling that arises from a natural but momentary quailing before the agonies of death, and which was in every respect similar to that which had been experienced by the author of the psalm.
The combination of profound mental anguish, in consequence of entire abandonment by men, with the well-nigh intolerable pangs of dissolution, was all the more natural and inevitable in the case of One whose feelings were so deep, tender, and real, whose moral consciousness was so pure, and whose love was so intense.
In ἐγκατέλιπες Jesus expressed, of course, what He felt, for His ordinary conviction that He was in fellowship God had for the moment given way under the pressure of extreme bodily and mental suffering, and a mere passing feeling as though He were no longer sustained by the power of the divine life had taken its place (comp. Gess, p. 196); but this subjective feeling must not be confounded with actual objective desertion on the part of God (in opposition to Olshausen and earlier expositors), which in the case of Jesus would have been a meta-physical and moral impossibility.
The dividing of the exclamation into different parts, so as to correspond to the different elements in Christ’s nature, merely gives rise to arbitrary and fanciful views (Lange, Ebrard),
-- similar to those which have been based on the metaphysical deduction from the idea of necessity (Ebrard).
--To assume, as the theologians have done, that in the distressful cry of abandonment we have the vicarious enduring of the wrath of God (“ira Dei adversus nostra peccata effunditur in ipsum, et sic satisfit justitiae Dei,” Melanchthon, comp. Luther on Psalms 22, Calvin, Quenstedt),
-- or the infliction of divine punishment (Köstlin in the Jahrb. f. D. Theol. III. 1, p. 125, and Weiss himself),
-- is, as in the case of the agony in Gethsemane, to go farther than we are warranted in doing by the New Testament view of the atoning death of Christ, the vicarious character of which is not to be regarded as consisting in an objective and actual equivalent.
-- Comp. Remarks after Mat 26:46. Others, again, have assumed that Jesus, though quoting only the opening words of Psalms 22., had the whole psalm in view, including, therefore, the comforting words with which it concludes (Paulus, Gratz, de Wette, Bleek; comp. Schleiermacher, Glaubensl. II. p. 141, ed. 4, and L. J. p. 457).
--This, however, besides being somewhat arbitrary, gives rise to the incongruity of introducing the element of reflection where only pure feeling prevailed, as we see exemplified by Hofmann, Schriftbew. II. 1, p. 309,
--who, in accordance with his view that Jesus was abandoned to the mercies of an ungodly world, substitutes a secondary thought (“request for the so long delayed deliverance through death”) for the plain and direct sense of the words.
The authenticity of our Lord’s exclamation, which the author of the Wolferibüttel Fragnents has singularly misconstrued (in describing it as the cry of despair over a lost cause), is denied by Strauss (who speaks of Psalms 22 as having served the purpose of a programme of Christ’s passion), while it is strongly questioned by Keim, partly on account of Psalms 22 and partly because he thinks that the subsequent accompanying narrative is clearly (?) of the nature of a fictitious legend.
But legend would hardly have put the language of despair into the mouth of the dying Redeemer, and certainly there is nothing in the witticisms that follow to warrant the idea that we have here one legend upon another.
--ἵνατι] the momentary but agonizing feeling that He is abandoned by God, impels Him to ask what the divine object of this may be. He doubtless knew this already, but the pangs of death had overpowered Him (2Co 13:4),—a passing anomaly as regards the spirit that uniformly characterized the prayers of Jesus.
ἐγκαταλείπω] means: to abandon any one to utter helplessness. Comp. 2Co 4:9; Act 2:27; Heb 13:5; Plat. Conv. p. 179 A; Dem. p. 158, 10, al.; Sir 3:16; Sir 7:30; Sir 9:10.
6) "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (eis ti egkatelipes me) "Why did you forsake or have you forsaken me?" Mat_27:46.
Mark gave the Aramaic form of the direct address of Jesus to His Father, while Matthew gives the Gk. (ho, theos mou, ho theos mou) The cry was a cry of a deserted one forlorn, suffering alone, Isa_53:12; The answer of “why" is given, 2Co_5:21.
And Gill--
that is to say, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He calls him his God, not as he was God, but as he was man; who, as such, was chosen by him to the grace of union to the Son of God; was made and formed by him; was anointed by him with the oil of gladness; was supported and upheld by him in the day of salvation; was raised by him from the dead, and highly exalted by him at his own right hand; and Christ, as man, prayed to him as his God, believed in him, loved him, and obeyed him as such: and though now he hid his face from him, yet he expressed strong faith and confidence of his interest in him.
When he is said to be "forsaken" of God; the meaning is not, that the hypostatical union was dissolved, which was not even by death itself; the fulness of the Godhead still dwelt bodily in him: nor was he separated from the love of God; he had the same interest in his Father's heart and favour, both as his Son, and as mediator, as ever: nor was the principle and habit of joy and comfort lost in his soul, as man,
-- but he was now without a sense of the gracious presence of God, and was filled, as the surety of his people, with a sense of divine wrath, which their iniquities he now bore, deserved, and which was necessary for him to endure, in order to make full satisfaction for them; for one part of the punishment of sin is loss of the divine presence.
Wherefore he made not this expostulation out of ignorance: he knew the reason of it, and that it was not out of personal disrespect to him, or for any sin of his own; or because he was not a righteous, but a wicked man, as the Jew (m) blasphemously objects to him from hence; but because he stood in the legal place, and stead of sinners: nor was it out of impatience, that he so expressed himself; for he was entirely resigned to the will of God, and content to drink the whole of the bitter cup: nor out of despair; for he at the same time strongly claims and asserts his interest in God, and repeats it; but to show, that he bore all the griefs of his people, and this among the rest, divine desertion; and to set forth the bitterness of his sorrows,
--that not only the sun in the firmament hid its face from him, and he was forsaken by his friends and disciples, but even left by his God; and also to express the strength of his faith at such a time. The whole of it evinces the truth of Christ's human nature, that he was in all things made like unto his brethren; that he had an human soul, and endured sorrows and sufferings in it, of which this of desertion was not the least: the heinousness of sin may be learnt from hence, which not only drove the angels out of heaven, and Adam out of the garden, and separates, with respect to communion, between God and his children; but even caused him to hide his face from his own Son, whilst he was bearing, and suffering for, the sins of his people. The condescending grace of Christ is here to be seen, that he, who was the word, that was with God from everlasting, and his only begotten Son that lay in his bosom, that he should descend from heaven by the assumption of human nature, and be for a while forsaken by God, to bring us near unto him: nor should it be wondered at, that this is sometimes the case of the saints, who should, in imitation of Christ, trust in the Lord at such seasons, and stay themselves on their God, and which may be some support unto them, they may be assured of the sympathy of Christ, who having been in this same condition, cannot but have a fellow feeling with them.
--The Jews themselves own
, that these words were said by Jesus when he was in their hands. They indeed apply the passage to Esther; and say (o), that "she stood in the innermost court of the king's house; and when she came to the house of the images, the Shekinah departed from her, and she said, "Eli, Eli, lama Azabthani?" my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?--Though others apply the "Psalm" to David, and others to the people of Israel in captivity (p): but certain it is, that it belongs to the Messiah; and many things in it were fulfilled with respect to Jesus, most clearly show him to be the Messiah, and the person pointed at: the first words of it were spoken by him, as the Jews themselves allow, and the very expressions which his enemies used concerning him while suffering, together with their gestures, are there recorded; and the parting his garments, and casting lots on his vesture, done by the Roman soldiers, are there prophesied of; and indeed there are so many things in it which agree with him, and cannot with any other, that leave it without all doubt that he is the subject of it (q),--
What is your belief on Penal Substitutionary Atonement?
Ok but i think this presents the matter accuratelyHere is Heinrich Meyer and want you to note the different opinions-from different scholars.
Mat 27:46 Ἀνεβόησεν] He cried aloud. See Winer, de verbor. cum praepos. compos, usu, 1838, III. p. 6 f.; comp. Luk 9:38; LXX. and Apocr., Herod., Plato.
The circumstance of the following exclamation being given in Hebrew) is sufficiently and naturally enough accounted for by the jeering language of Mat 27:47, which language is understood to be suggested by the sound of the Hebrew words recorded in our present passage.
σαβαχθανί] Chald.: שְׁבַקְתַּנִי = the Heb. עֲזַבְתָּנִי.
Jesus gives vent to His feelings in the opening words of the twenty-second Psalm. We have here, however, the purely human feeling that arises from a natural but momentary quailing before the agonies of death, and which was in every respect similar to that which had been experienced by the author of the psalm.
The combination of profound mental anguish, in consequence of entire abandonment by men, with the well-nigh intolerable pangs of dissolution, was all the more natural and inevitable in the case of One whose feelings were so deep, tender, and real, whose moral consciousness was so pure, and whose love was so intense.
In ἐγκατέλιπες Jesus expressed, of course, what He felt, for His ordinary conviction that He was in fellowship God had for the moment given way under the pressure of extreme bodily and mental suffering, and a mere passing feeling as though He were no longer sustained by the power of the divine life had taken its place (comp. Gess, p. 196); but this subjective feeling must not be confounded with actual objective desertion on the part of God (in opposition to Olshausen and earlier expositors), which in the case of Jesus would have been a meta-physical and moral impossibility.
The dividing of the exclamation into different parts, so as to correspond to the different elements in Christ’s nature, merely gives rise to arbitrary and fanciful views (Lange, Ebrard),
-- similar to those which have been based on the metaphysical deduction from the idea of necessity (Ebrard).
--To assume, as the theologians have done, that in the distressful cry of abandonment we have the vicarious enduring of the wrath of God (“ira Dei adversus nostra peccata effunditur in ipsum, et sic satisfit justitiae Dei,” Melanchthon, comp. Luther on Psalms 22, Calvin, Quenstedt),
-- or the infliction of divine punishment (Köstlin in the Jahrb. f. D. Theol. III. 1, p. 125, and Weiss himself),
-- is, as in the case of the agony in Gethsemane, to go farther than we are warranted in doing by the New Testament view of the atoning death of Christ, the vicarious character of which is not to be regarded as consisting in an objective and actual equivalent.
-- Comp. Remarks after Mat 26:46. Others, again, have assumed that Jesus, though quoting only the opening words of Psalms 22., had the whole psalm in view, including, therefore, the comforting words with which it concludes (Paulus, Gratz, de Wette, Bleek; comp. Schleiermacher, Glaubensl. II. p. 141, ed. 4, and L. J. p. 457).
--This, however, besides being somewhat arbitrary, gives rise to the incongruity of introducing the element of reflection where only pure feeling prevailed, as we see exemplified by Hofmann, Schriftbew. II. 1, p. 309,
--who, in accordance with his view that Jesus was abandoned to the mercies of an ungodly world, substitutes a secondary thought (“request for the so long delayed deliverance through death”) for the plain and direct sense of the words.
The authenticity of our Lord’s exclamation, which the author of the Wolferibüttel Fragnents has singularly misconstrued (in describing it as the cry of despair over a lost cause), is denied by Strauss (who speaks of Psalms 22 as having served the purpose of a programme of Christ’s passion), while it is strongly questioned by Keim, partly on account of Psalms 22 and partly because he thinks that the subsequent accompanying narrative is clearly (?) of the nature of a fictitious legend.
But legend would hardly have put the language of despair into the mouth of the dying Redeemer, and certainly there is nothing in the witticisms that follow to warrant the idea that we have here one legend upon another.
--ἵνατι] the momentary but agonizing feeling that He is abandoned by God, impels Him to ask what the divine object of this may be. He doubtless knew this already, but the pangs of death had overpowered Him (2Co 13:4),—a passing anomaly as regards the spirit that uniformly characterized the prayers of Jesus.
ἐγκαταλείπω] means: to abandon any one to utter helplessness. Comp. 2Co 4:9; Act 2:27; Heb 13:5; Plat. Conv. p. 179 A; Dem. p. 158, 10, al.; Sir 3:16; Sir 7:30; Sir 9:10.
6) "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (eis ti egkatelipes me) "Why did you forsake or have you forsaken me?" Mat_27:46.
Mark gave the Aramaic form of the direct address of Jesus to His Father, while Matthew gives the Gk. (ho, theos mou, ho theos mou) The cry was a cry of a deserted one forlorn, suffering alone, Isa_53:12; The answer of “why" is given, 2Co_5:21.
And Gill--
that is to say, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He calls him his God, not as he was God, but as he was man; who, as such, was chosen by him to the grace of union to the Son of God; was made and formed by him; was anointed by him with the oil of gladness; was supported and upheld by him in the day of salvation; was raised by him from the dead, and highly exalted by him at his own right hand; and Christ, as man, prayed to him as his God, believed in him, loved him, and obeyed him as such: and though now he hid his face from him, yet he expressed strong faith and confidence of his interest in him.
When he is said to be "forsaken" of God; the meaning is not, that the hypostatical union was dissolved, which was not even by death itself; the fulness of the Godhead still dwelt bodily in him: nor was he separated from the love of God; he had the same interest in his Father's heart and favour, both as his Son, and as mediator, as ever: nor was the principle and habit of joy and comfort lost in his soul, as man,
-- but he was now without a sense of the gracious presence of God, and was filled, as the surety of his people, with a sense of divine wrath, which their iniquities he now bore, deserved, and which was necessary for him to endure, in order to make full satisfaction for them; for one part of the punishment of sin is loss of the divine presence.
Wherefore he made not this expostulation out of ignorance: he knew the reason of it, and that it was not out of personal disrespect to him, or for any sin of his own; or because he was not a righteous, but a wicked man, as the Jew (m) blasphemously objects to him from hence; but because he stood in the legal place, and stead of sinners: nor was it out of impatience, that he so expressed himself; for he was entirely resigned to the will of God, and content to drink the whole of the bitter cup: nor out of despair; for he at the same time strongly claims and asserts his interest in God, and repeats it; but to show, that he bore all the griefs of his people, and this among the rest, divine desertion; and to set forth the bitterness of his sorrows,
--that not only the sun in the firmament hid its face from him, and he was forsaken by his friends and disciples, but even left by his God; and also to express the strength of his faith at such a time. The whole of it evinces the truth of Christ's human nature, that he was in all things made like unto his brethren; that he had an human soul, and endured sorrows and sufferings in it, of which this of desertion was not the least: the heinousness of sin may be learnt from hence, which not only drove the angels out of heaven, and Adam out of the garden, and separates, with respect to communion, between God and his children; but even caused him to hide his face from his own Son, whilst he was bearing, and suffering for, the sins of his people. The condescending grace of Christ is here to be seen, that he, who was the word, that was with God from everlasting, and his only begotten Son that lay in his bosom, that he should descend from heaven by the assumption of human nature, and be for a while forsaken by God, to bring us near unto him: nor should it be wondered at, that this is sometimes the case of the saints, who should, in imitation of Christ, trust in the Lord at such seasons, and stay themselves on their God, and which may be some support unto them, they may be assured of the sympathy of Christ, who having been in this same condition, cannot but have a fellow feeling with them.
--The Jews themselves own
--Though others apply the "Psalm" to David, and others to the people of Israel in captivity (p): but certain it is, that it belongs to the Messiah; and many things in it were fulfilled with respect to Jesus, most clearly show him to be the Messiah, and the person pointed at: the first words of it were spoken by him, as the Jews themselves allow, and the very expressions which his enemies used concerning him while suffering, together with their gestures, are there recorded; and the parting his garments, and casting lots on his vesture, done by the Roman soldiers, are there prophesied of; and indeed there are so many things in it which agree with him, and cannot with any other, that leave it without all doubt that he is the subject of it (q),--
What is your belief on Penal Substitutionary Atonement?
but this subjective feeling must not be confounded with actual objective desertion on the part of God (in opposition to Olshausen and earlier expositors), which in the case of Jesus would have been a meta-physical and moral impossibility.
I reject it
It is a commercial system of atonement more fit for a Calvinist theology than the theology presented in the bible
Johann
Well-known member
I was giving you the different views-from scholars-on this one verse
the Geneva
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou (o) forsaken me?
"(o) That is, in this misery: And this crying out is a natural part of his humanity, which, even though it was void of sin, still felt the wrath of God, the wrath which is due to our sins."
forsaken. or, leave Me in this circumstance (LNT). Gr. egkataleipō (S# G1459, 2Co_4:9). Did You leave in translates egkatelipes; Moulton says on this word, "Egkataleipō will serve as a type of some others: kataleipō abandon (perfective) is supplemented with en, pointing to the plight in which the victim is left" (James Hope Moulton, A Grammar of New Testament Greek, Vol. 2, p. 305, § 118, (a)). [The Greek has been transliterated.]
The term is a compound word made up of en (in), kata (down, downwards), and leipō (to leave). So, in keeping with its definitive characteristics, the word means to leave in some circumstance. Note that Moulton’s term, perfective, means that the preposition en, expresses completion to the rest of the word in this context.
Christ was left, but in what sense? En, in, the redemptive role: suffering, bloodshed, death! God cannot leave, forsake, or run out on God the Son. God IS one, as in a state of being, and there cannot be departure whatsoever among the Trinity, of the One from the Other. God’s effort was not abandonment, but redemption! We further note that the same word, egkatelipen, is used of Demas forsaking Paul (2Ti_4:10). Thus Paul was left, but in what sense? He was left in the plight of desertion. The purpose of the leaving declares the difference in meaning: Demas’ purpose was another love, requiring a separation; God’s purpose was redemption, requiring togetherness and oneness (LNT, fn i). $>Psa_22:1; Psa_69:17; Psa_88:14, Lam_3:8, **Hab_1:13, 2Co_5:21, Heb_13:5 g.
All from commentaries you are quoting-selectively, I might add. So I would ask you again, what is your stance on Penal Substutionary Atonement?
civic
Well-known member
This was good !
Christ was left, but in what sense? En, in, the redemptive role: suffering, bloodshed, death! God cannot leave, forsake, or run out on God the Son. God IS one, as in a state of being, and there cannot be departure whatsoever among the Trinity, of the One from the Other. God’s effort was not abandonment, but redemption! We further note that the same word, egkatelipen, is used of Demas forsaking Paul (2Ti_4:10). Thus Paul was left, but in what sense? He was left in the plight of desertion. The purpose of the leaving declares the difference in meaning: Demas’ purpose was another love, requiring a separation; God’s purpose was redemption, requiring togetherness and oneness (LNT, fn i). $>Psa_22:1; Psa_69:17; Psa_88:14, Lam_3:8, **Hab_1:13, 2Co_5:21, Heb_13:5 g.
Johann
Well-known member
So in what sense was Jesus left/forsaken?
civic
Well-known member
Feeling forsaken and being forsaken are much different. He may of felt forsaken but was not actually forsaken.
Johann
Well-known member
Transliteration: enkatelipes
Morphology: V-AIA-2S
Verb - Aorist Indicative Active - 2nd Person Singular
Strong's no.: G1459 (ἐγκαταλείπω)
Meaning: To leave in the lurch, abandon (one who is in straits), desert.
The Aorist+INDICATIVE and the ACTIVE is against your assertion brother.
Johann
Well-known member
2ndAorist-becoming something one was not before
civic
Well-known member
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. God cannot forsake God that is an oxymoron and impossible. It’s a contradiction.
Johann
Well-known member
--and this should teach us to be humble and teachable-we are on holy ground.
Johann
Well-known member
You have to deal with the verse given to you-clearly Jesus in His humanity-yet God in the flesh-and the 2ndAorist.
Jesus became something He was NOT before-abandoned in those darkest hours.
ἐγκαταλείπω
egkataleipō
eng-kat-al-i'-po
From G1722 and G2641; to leave behind in some place, that is, (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad one) to desert: - forsake, leave.
LXX related word(s)
H898 bagad
H3427 yashav
H3498 yatar ni,hi
H3772 karat ni.
H3988 maas
H5428 natash qal,ni,pu
H5800 azav qal,ni,pu
H6328 puq
H7503 raphah hi.
H7591 sheiyyah
H7604 shaar ni.
H7725 shuv
H7876 shayah
H7911 shakhach
Thayer Definition:
1) abandon, desert
1a) leave in straits, leave helpless
1b) totally abandoned, utterly forsaken
2) to leave behind among, to leave surviving
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1722 and G2641
ἐγκαταλείπω
egkataleípō; fut. egkataleípsō, from en (G1722), in, and kataleípō (G2641), to forsake, desert. To leave behind in any place or state. Used trans. with the soul as the obj. (Act_2:27 quoted from Psa_16:10). With the meaning of to leave remaining (Rom_9:29 quoted from Isa_1:9). By implication, to leave in the lurch, forsake, desert, abandon, with the acc. (Mat_27:46; Mar_15:34; [Sept.: Psa_22:1]; 2Ti_4:10, 2Ti_4:16; Heb_10:25; Heb_13:5; Sept.: Deu_31:6, Deu_31:8; Isa_1:8).
Syn.: aphíēmi (G863), to forsake, forgive; aphístēmi (G868), to depart from; apotássō (G657), to separate oneself from; apoleípō (G620), to leave behind.
Word Studies
A. Verbs.
1. kataleipo (G2641), a strengthened form of leipo, "to leave," signifies (a) "to leave, to leave behind," e.g., Mat_4:13; (b) "to leave remaining, reserve," e.g., Luk_10:40; (c) "to forsake," in the sense of abandoning, translated "to forsake" in the RV of Luk_5:28 and Act_6:2; in Heb_11:27 and 2Pe_2:15, KJV and RV. In this sense it is translated "to leave," in Mar_10:7; Mar_14:52; Luk_15:4; Eph_5:31. See LEAVE, RESERVE.
2. enkataleipo (G1459), from en, "in," and No. 1, denotes (a) "to leave behind, among, leave surviving," Rom_9:29; (b) "to forsake, abandon, leave in straits, or helpless," said by, or of, Christ, Mat_27:46; Mar_15:34; Act_2:27, Act_2:31 (No. 1 in some mss.); of men, 2Co_4:9; 2Ti_4:10, 2Ti_4:16; by God, Heb_13:5; of things, by Christians (negatively), Heb_10:25. See LEAVE.
3. aphiemi (G863) sometimes has the significance of "forsaking," Mar_1:18; Mar_14:50 (RV, "left"); so Luk_5:11. See FORGIVE.
4. apotasso (G657), primarily, "to set apart" (apo, off, "from," tasso, "to arrange"), is used in the middle voice, meaning (a) "to take leave of," e.g., Mar_6:46, (b) "to renounce, forsake," Luk_14:33, KJV, "forsaketh," RV, "renounceth" ("all that he hath"). See BID FAREWELL, RENOUNCE, SEND, Note (2) at end, TAKE, Note (14).
B. Noun.
apostasia (G646), "an apostasy, defection, revolt," always in NT of religious defection, is translated "to forsake" in Act_2:2 lit., "(thou teachest) apostasy (from Moses)"; in 2Th_2:3, "falling away." see FALL.
Vine's NT.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Johann
Well-known member
the depth
Ps 107:8-43 [8] Let them praise Yahweh for his loving kindness, for his wonderful deeds to the children of men! [9] For he satisfies the longing soul. He fills the hungry soul with good. [10] Some sat in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron, [11] because they rebelled against the words of God, and condemned the counsel of the Most High. [12] Therefore he brought down their heart with labor. They fell down, and there was no one to help. [13] Then they cried to Yahweh in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. [14] He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and broke away their chains. [15] Let them praise Yahweh for his loving kindness, for his wonderful deeds to the children of men! [16] For he has broken the gates of bronze, and cut through bars of iron. [17] Fools are afflicted because of their disobedience, and because of their iniquities. [18] Their soul abhors all kinds of food. They draw near to the gates of death. [19] Then they cry to Yahweh in their trouble, and he saves them out of their distresses. [20] He sends his word, and heals them, and delivers them from their graves. [21] Let them praise Yahweh for his loving kindness, for his wonderful deeds to the children of men! [22] Let them offer the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his deeds with singing. [23] Those who go down to the sea in ships, who do business in great waters, [24] these see Yahweh’s deeds, and his wonders in the deep. [25] For he commands, and raises the stormy wind, which lifts up its waves. [26] They mount up to the sky; they go down again to the depths. Their soul melts away because of trouble. [27] They reel back and forth, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits’ end. [28] Then they cry to Yahweh in their trouble, and he brings them out of their distress. [29] He makes the storm a calm, so that its waves are still. [30] Then they are glad because it is calm, so he brings them to their desired haven. [31] Let them praise Yahweh for his loving kindness, for his wonderful deeds for the children of men! [32] Let them exalt him also in the assembly of the people, and praise him in the seat of the elders. [33] He turns rivers into a desert, water springs into a thirsty ground, [34] and a fruitful land into a salt waste, for the wickedness of those who dwell in it. [35] He turns a desert into a pool of water, and a dry land into water springs. [36] There he makes the hungry live, that they may prepare a city to live in, [37] sow fields, plant vineyards, and reap the fruits of increase. [38] He blesses them also, so that they are multiplied greatly. He doesn’t allow their livestock to decrease. [39] Again, they are diminished and bowed down through oppression, trouble, and sorrow. [40] He pours contempt on princes, and causes them to wander in a trackless waste. [41] Yet he lifts the needy out of their affliction, and increases their families like a flock. [42] The upright will see it, and be glad. All the wicked will shut their mouths. [43] Whoever is wise will pay attention to these things. They will consider the loving kindnesses of Yahweh.
Pr 25:3 As the heavens for height, and the earth for depth, so the hearts of kings are unsearchable.
Eph 3:18 may be strengthened to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and height and depth,
riches
*Ro 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
*Eph 3:10 to the intent that now through the assembly the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places,
Ro 9:23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory—
Eph 1:7 In him we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
Eph 3:8 To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
Eph 3:16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that you may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person,
Col 1:27 to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Col 2:2-3 [2] that their hearts may be comforted, they being knit together in love, and gaining all riches of the full assurance of understanding, that they may know the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, [3] in whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden.
how
*Job 5:9 who does great things that can’t be fathomed, marvelous things without number;
*Ps 92:5 How great are your works, Yahweh! Your thoughts are very deep.
Job 9:10 He does great things past finding out; yes, marvelous things without number.
Job 11:7-9 [7] “Can you fathom the mystery of God? Or can you probe the limits of the Almighty? [8] They are high as heaven. What can you do? They are deeper than Sheol. What can you know? [9] Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.
Job 26:14 Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways. How small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?”
Job 33:13 Why do you strive against him, because he doesn’t give account of any of his matters?
Job 37:19 Teach us what we will tell him, for we can’t make our case by reason of darkness.
Job 37:23 We can’t reach the Almighty. He is exalted in power. In justice and great righteousness, he will not oppress.
Ps 36:6 Your righteousness is like the mountains of God. Your judgments are like a great deep. Yahweh, you preserve man and animal.
Ps 40:5 Many, Yahweh, my God, are the wonderful works which you have done, and your thoughts which are toward us. They can’t be declared back to you. If I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be counted.
Ps 77:19 Your way was through the sea, your paths through the great waters. Your footsteps were not known.
Ps 97:2 Clouds and darkness are around him. Righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
Ec 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in their hearts, yet so that man can’t find out the work that God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Da 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he does according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and no one can stop his hand, or ask him, “What are you doing?”
Reciprocal
Dt 29:29 The secret things belong to Yahweh our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Jdg 20:25 Benjamin went out against them out of Gibeah the second day, and destroyed down to the ground of the children of Israel again eighteen thousand men. All these drew the sword.
2Ki 23:29 In his days Pharaoh Necoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates; and King Josiah went against him, but Pharaoh Necoh killed him at Megiddo when he saw him.
1Ch 16:12 Remember his marvelous works that he has done, his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth,
1Ch 17:4 “Go and tell David my servant, ‘Yahweh says, “You shall not build me a house to dwell in;
Es 2:22 This thing became known to Mordecai, who informed Esther the queen; and Esther informed the king in Mordecai’s name.
Es 6:1 On that night, the king couldn’t sleep. He commanded the book of records of the chronicles to be brought, and they were read to the king.
Job 4:17 ‘Shall mortal man be more just than God? Shall a man be more pure than his Maker?
Job 9:4 God is wise in heart, and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against him and prospered?
Job 10:13 Yet you hid these things in your heart. I know that this is with you:
Job 17:8 Upright men will be astonished at this. The innocent will stir himself up against the godless.
Job 21:5 Look at me, and be astonished. Lay your hand on your mouth.
Job 23:14 For he performs that which is appointed for me. Many such things are with him.
Job 28:7 That path no bird of prey knows, neither has the falcon’s eye seen it.
Job 28:14 The deep says, ‘It isn’t in me.’ The sea says, ‘It isn’t with me.’
Job 28:23 “God understands its way, and he knows its place.
Job 37:5 God thunders marvelously with his voice. He does great things, which we can’t comprehend.
Ps 73:16 When I tried to understand this, it was too painful for me—
Ps 104:24 Yahweh, how many are your works! In wisdom, you have made them all. The earth is full of your riches.
Ps 106:2 Who can utter the mighty acts of Yahweh, or fully declare all his praise?
Ps 131:1 A Song of Ascents. By David. Yahweh, my heart isn’t arrogant, nor my eyes lofty; nor do I concern myself with great matters, or things too wonderful for me.
Ps 139:6 This knowledge is beyond me. It’s lofty. I can’t attain it.
Ps 145:3 Great is Yahweh, and greatly to be praised! His greatness is unsearchable.
Ps 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power. His understanding is infinite.
Pr 8:12 “I, wisdom, have made prudence my dwelling. Find out knowledge and discretion.
Pr 8:14 Counsel and sound knowledge are mine. I have understanding and power.
Pr 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter.
Pr 30:3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One.
Ec 5:8 If you see the oppression of the poor, and the violent taking away of justice and righteousness in a district, don’t marvel at the matter, for one official is eyed by a higher one, and there are officials over them.
Ec 7:24 That which is, is far off and exceedingly deep. Who can find it out?
Ec 8:17 then I saw all the work of God, that man can’t find out the work that is done under the sun, because however much a man labors to seek it out, yet he won’t find it. Yes even though a wise man thinks he can comprehend it, he won’t be able to find it.
Ec 11:5 As you don’t know what is the way of the wind, nor how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child; even so you don’t know the work of God who does all.
Is 19:12 Where then are your wise men? Let them tell you now; and let them know what Yahweh of Armies has purposed concerning Egypt.
Is 28:29 This also comes out from Yahweh of Armies, who is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in wisdom.
Is 40:28 Haven’t you known? Haven’t you heard? The everlasting God, Yahweh, the Creator of the ends of the earth, doesn’t faint. He isn’t weary. His understanding is unsearchable.
Is 45:15 Most certainly you are a God who has hidden yourself, God of Israel, the Savior.’”
Is 46:10 I declare the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done. I say: My counsel will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Is 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Je 32:19 great in counsel, and mighty in work; whose eyes are open to all the ways of the children of men, to give everyone according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings;
Je 32:25 You have said to me, Lord Yahweh, ‘Buy the field for money, and call witnesses;’ whereas the city is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.”
Je 51:15 “He has made the earth by his power. He has established the world by his wisdom. By his understanding he has stretched out the heavens.
Eze 1:16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like a beryl. The four of them had one likeness. Their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel within a wheel.
Eze 10:10 As for their appearance, the four of them had one likeness, like a wheel within a wheel.
Da 4:3 How great are his signs! How mighty are his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. His dominion is from generation to generation.
Mic 4:12 But they don’t know the thoughts of Yahweh, neither do they understand his counsel; for he has gathered them like the sheaves to the threshing floor.
Mt 11:26 Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing in your sight.
Ac 2:23 him, being delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by the hand of lawless men, crucified and killed;
Ro 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from God’s love which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Ro 11:12 Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
Ro 16:27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever! Amen.
1Co 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.
1Co 1:25 because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 2:10-11 [10] But to us, God revealed them through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. [11] For who among men knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except God’s Spirit.
Eph 1:8 which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Php 4:19 My God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
Jud 1:25 to God our Savior, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.
Re 15:8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power. No one was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels would be finished.
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