Did God, forsake Jesus on the cross?

[Begotten]

I have a number of unsettling questions about the idea that God had to vent his wrath on Jesus in order to forgive us. Here’s a few of them:

1. Does God really need to appease his wrath with a blood sacrifice in order to forgive us? If so, does this mean that the law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the ultimate description of God’s character? And if this is true, what are we to make of Jesus’ teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love? Not only this, but what are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?

1. If God’s holiness requires that a sacrifice be made before he can fellowship with sinners, how did Jesus manage to hang out with sinners without a sacrifice, since he is as fully divine and as holy as God the Father?

1. If Jesus’ death allows God the Father to accept us, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Jesus reconciles God to us than it is to say Jesus reconciles us to God? Yet the New Testament claims the latter and never the former (e.g. 2 Cor. 5:18-20). In fact, if God loves sinners and yet can’t accept sinners without a sacrifice, wouldn’t it be even more accurate to say that God reconciles God to himself than to say he reconciles us to God? But this is clearly an odd and unbiblical way of speaking.

1. How are we to understand one member of the Trinity (the Father) being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity (the Son), when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God?

1. If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really forgive anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt — not collecting it from someone else.

1. Are sin and guilt the sorts of things that can be literally transferred from one party to another? Related to this, how are we to conceive of the Father being angry towards Jesus and justly punishing him when he of course knew Jesus never did anything wrong?

1. If the just punishment for sin is eternal hell (as most Christians have traditionally believed), how does Jesus’ several hours of suffering and his short time in the grave pay for it?

1. If the main thing Jesus came to do was to appease the Father’s wrath by being slain by him for our sin, couldn’t this have been accomplished just as easily when (say) Jesus was a one-year-old boy as when he was a thirty-three year old man? Were Jesus’ life, teachings, healing and deliverance ministry merely a prelude to the one really important thing he did – namely, die? It doesn’t seem to me that the Gospels divide up and prioritize the various aspects of Jesus’ life in this way. (I maintain that everything Jesus did was about one thing – overcoming evil with love. Hence, every aspect of Jesus was centered on atonement — that is, reconciling us to God and freeing us from the devil’s oppression.)

1. To raise a more controversial question, if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son, then don’t we have to conclude that pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way?

1. What is the intrinsic connection between what Jesus did on the cross and how we actually live? The Penal Substitution view makes it seem like the real issue in need of resolution is a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God’s holy wrath and our sin. Christ’s death changes how God sees us, but this theory says nothing about how Christ’s death changes us. This is particularly concerning to me because every study done on the subject has demonstrated that for the majority of Americans who believe in Jesus, their belief makes little or no impact on their life. I wonder if the dominance of this legal-transaction view of the atonement might be partly responsible for this tragic state of affairs.

To me, these are all serious problems with the Penal Substitution view of the atonement. I do not deny that Jesus died as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that the Father vented his wrath against sin on Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.

This podcast explains it perfectly

Can You Hold a Cruciform Theology AND a Penal Substitution View of Atonement? (podcast) - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

If you view the cross as the outlet of God’s wrath, then the violence in the Old Testament seems to make perfect sense. Greg responds. Episode 614 http://traffic.libsyn.com/askgregboyd/Episode_0614.mp3

reknew.org

 

[Johann]

I have a number of unsettling questions about the idea that God had to vent his wrath on Jesus in order to forgive us. Here’s a few of them:

1. Does God really need to appease his wrath with a blood sacrifice in order to forgive us? If so, does this mean that the law of “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” is the ultimate description of God’s character? And if this is true, what are we to make of Jesus’ teaching that this law is surpassed by the law of love? Not only this, but what are we to make of all the instances in the Bible where God forgives people without demanding a sacrifice (e.g. the prodigal son)?
2. If God’s holiness requires that a sacrifice be made before he can fellowship with sinners, how did Jesus manage to hang out with sinners without a sacrifice, since he is as fully divine and as holy as God the Father?
3. If Jesus’ death allows God the Father to accept us, wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that Jesus reconciles God to us than it is to say Jesus reconciles us to God? Yet the New Testament claims the latter and never the former (e.g. 2 Cor. 5:18-20). In fact, if God loves sinners and yet can’t accept sinners without a sacrifice, wouldn’t it be even more accurate to say that God reconciles God to himself than to say he reconciles us to God? But this is clearly an odd and unbiblical way of speaking.
4. How are we to understand one member of the Trinity (the Father) being wrathful towards another member of the Trinity (the Son), when they are, along with the Holy Spirit, one and the same God? Can God be truly angry with God? Can God actually punish God?
5. If God the father needs someone to “pay the price” for sin, does the Father ever really forgive anyone? Think about it. If you owe me a hundred dollars and I hold you to it unless someone pays me the owed sum, did I really forgive your debt? It seems not, especially since the very concept of forgiveness is about releasing a debt — not collecting it from someone else.
6. Are sin and guilt the sorts of things that can be literally transferred from one party to another? Related to this, how are we to conceive of the Father being angry towards Jesus and justly punishing him when he of course knew Jesus never did anything wrong?
7. If the just punishment for sin is eternal hell (as most Christians have traditionally believed), how does Jesus’ several hours of suffering and his short time in the grave pay for it?
8. If the main thing Jesus came to do was to appease the Father’s wrath by being slain by him for our sin, couldn’t this have been accomplished just as easily when (say) Jesus was a one-year-old boy as when he was a thirty-three year old man? Were Jesus’ life, teachings, healing and deliverance ministry merely a prelude to the one really important thing he did – namely, die? It doesn’t seem to me that the Gospels divide up and prioritize the various aspects of Jesus’ life in this way. (I maintain that everything Jesus did was about one thing – overcoming evil with love. Hence, every aspect of Jesus was centered on atonement — that is, reconciling us to God and freeing us from the devil’s oppression.)
9. To raise a more controversial question, if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son, then don’t we have to conclude that pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way?
10. What is the intrinsic connection between what Jesus did on the cross and how we actually live? The Penal Substitution view makes it seem like the real issue in need of resolution is a legal matter in the heavenly realms between God’s holy wrath and our sin. Christ’s death changes how God sees us, but this theory says nothing about how Christ’s death changes us. This is particularly concerning to me because every study done on the subject has demonstrated that for the majority of Americans who believe in Jesus, their belief makes little or no impact on their life. I wonder if the dominance of this legal-transaction view of the atonement might be partly responsible for this tragic state of affairs.

To me, these are all serious problems with the Penal Substitution view of the atonement. I do not deny that Jesus died as our substitute or even that it was God’s will to “crush and bruise” him (Isa 53:10). But we don’t need to imagine that the Father vented his wrath against sin on Jesus to make sense of these facts. One can (and I think should) rather see this as the Father offering up his Son to the principalities and powers to be bruised and crushed in our place, for this unsurpassable expression of self-sacrificial love is what was needed to destroy the devil and his works and to thus set humans free, reconciling them to the Father.

This podcast explains it perfectly

Can You Hold a Cruciform Theology AND a Penal Substitution View of Atonement? (podcast) - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

If you view the cross as the outlet of God’s wrath, then the violence in the Old Testament seems to make perfect sense. Greg responds. Episode 614 http://traffic.libsyn.com/askgregboyd/Episode_0614.mp3

reknew.org

Really glad to see new members on this Forum-a hearty welcome-valid questions and I'm signing off-late here 01.39AM.

Johann.

 

[MatthewG]

I haven't heard this one in a while.

The cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed. . . . If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies. . . the idea that God was an angry deity, requiring a sacrifice to propitiate his wrath was surely more like an ancient pagan god than the Father of Jesus Christ.

Alan Mann’s now-famous line in The Lost Message of Jesus:

Hello Obadiah,

It was a picture and type of what happened with Adam and Eve, only reversed in that death brings forth newness of life. Adam and Eve, died spiritually and lost connection with Yahweh as personal as they had once did, perhaps hearing him talk to them by the wind perhaps. Yeshua, died also spiritually, and physically had died as well, by giving up his own life.

I do not get where people suggest that Yeshua, had taken on the wrath of Yahweh, for having committed a crime he did not commit... it is really wild how far a person can go when it comes to looking at the God of Israel, who most certainly was jealous of his own nation in the days when Jesus had come, to turn back and come to the one whom does give and sustain our spiritual life, as we allow ourselves to be worked on by Yahweh, whom works by writing on the hearts and minds of those who are his by his spirit which he gives of course.

God was very angry, and poured out his wrath on the nation of Israel, in 70Ad, in my view.,.. the only thing about that now is... God is no longer angry with the world... or any human being today... all things are reconciled back to him, and he by and through his Son desires to give people newness of life through the Gospel... (Nahum 1:2)(Revelation 21:1)

I dont really read all that much, so I dont know Alan Mann's.

 

[civic]

Hello Obadiah,

It was a picture and type of what happened with Adam and Eve, only reversed in that death brings forth newness of life. Adam and Eve, died spiritually and lost connection with Yahweh as personal as they had once did, perhaps hearing him talk to them by the wind perhaps. Yeshua, died also spiritually, and physically had died as well, by giving up his own life.

I do not get where people suggest that Yeshua, had taken on the wrath of Yahweh, for having committed a crime he did not commit... it is really wild how far a person can go when it comes to looking at the God of Israel, who most certainly was jealous of his own nation in the days when Jesus had come, to turn back and come to the one whom does give and sustain our spiritual life, as we allow ourselves to be worked on by Yahweh, whom works by writing on the hearts and minds of those who are his by his spirit which he gives of course.

God was very angry, and poured out his wrath on the nation of Israel, in 70Ad, in my view.,.. the only thing about that now is... God is no longer angry with the world... or any human being today... all things are reconciled back to him, and he by and through his Son desires to give people newness of life through the Gospel... (Nahum 1:2)(Revelation 21:1)

I dont really read all that much, so I dont know Alan Mann's.

Where does the Bible say Gods wrath was poured out in 70ad ???

 

[MatthewG]

Hey @civic. Just noticed your reply, as you been on ignore… this took a moment for me to type all out on my phone, if you have a response, I hope it’s meaningful and not a waste of my time to have even …

Make the choice to share…


Let me just ask a simple question…

Was the parable of the evil farmers who plot to kill the Son of God, worthy of wrath for killing the Son of God?

The Parable of the Wicked Tenants​

33 “Hear another parable. There was a householder who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge around it, and dug a wine press in it, and built a tower, and let it out to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season of fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants, to get his fruit; 35 and the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first; and they did the same to them. 37 Afterward he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir; come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the scriptures:

‘The very stone which the builders rejected
has become the head of the corner;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it.”[a]

45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. 46 But when they tried to arrest him, they feared the multitudes, because they held him to be a prophet.

And with Peter proclaiming the last days upon them in Acts… acts 2:14-41.


Though Israel is a nation know by the world in 1948; there is the original 12 tribes, which some where taken as the 144,000 being of the bride of Christ and the rest of the known people of that time who continued to reject the warnings of Yahweh, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Old Testament prophets concerning these things like the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Came to an end in a generation, the whole former administration was done away with by use of the Law, fulfilled in Jesus fulfilling that covenant which brings forth as you know the new covenant which is instated today, where Yahweh writes his laws on the hearts and minds of those who are his, and he will do that by his spirit, which he gives to believers pouring his love out on their heart.

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next. Truly I tell you, you will not reach all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:28
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Matthew 23:36
Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

To me a generation, is 40 years.

“The LORD was angry with Israel and made them wander in the wilderness for forty years until the entire generation that sinned in the LORD’s sight had died.

I consider this in life… I’m 33 and in 7 years my own generation will be over, 91s are long gone, to the new born babies in 2024.



In all, from Jesus’s prediction concerning the generation “though he did not know the time - a revelation comes which the time was revealed.

“A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John, who did testify the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, as many things also as he did see.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

Revelation 1:1-2 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant J | Young's Literal Translation 18

A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant J

bible.com

Jesus is revealed knowledge he did not know prior until his Father revealed it to him, and a message going to the 7 churches of Asia are all real people, and we can’t consider them… some people who didn’t exist, … or some people who are yet existing, they did exist… and they read the letter concerning the Revelation…

“Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it — for the time is nigh! John to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia: Grace to you, and peace, from Him who is, and who was, and who is coming, and from the Seven Spirits that are before His throne, and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen. Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen!”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭7‬ ‭YLT98‬‬


In 70Ad the temple was burned down, which also included their “genealogy” that’s why no one today can claim to be of some certain tribe… there is no evidence to provide. All of their everything ; their world was burned down, at the end of the age… and the punishment was taken out by Gods wrath…

“And the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mount where Jesus appointed them, and having seen him, they bowed to him, but some did waver. And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, ‘Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth; having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them — to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days — till the full end of the age.’”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭16‬-‭20‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

“then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power — for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet — the last enemy is done away — death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.”

‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬-‭28‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more;”

‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭1‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

“The sea, perhaps the Brazen sea, or perhaps a reference to Sheol,” either way, the Brazen sea would be something to consider, it is no longer around, from that prior economy. The former Heaven and earth - pertaining to the age which passes away, are made new by the administration of Jesus, and no one has to show up to Israel in order to see their God. As the walls have been broken down, where all can come to the Son and be able to go the Father, having newness of life and seeing things in a new way in Christ.

I could suggest “Yahweh, used the opposing nation “Ha’Satan” to obliterate those whom were part of that former economy of Israel (not todays modern Israel) — and then “Ha’Satan” which was also Israel for opposing Yahweh, and killing his Son; suffered under the influence of the curses and blessings. With no temple today, it seems that promises of Jesus who said “ they would end up being toppled over” came to fruition… in 70 Ad.


In the end you can say I’m wrong, ignorant, I’m not gonna end up changing my position… in distrusting the promising position of Jesus and his return to a living breathing people… who died for their faith and were the bride of Christ…

 

[dwight92070]

Some have said, "It's not that important to have correct doctrine, since we're saved anyway. Besides, we'll learn all that when we get to heaven. Really? What did Jesus say about that?

"If you continue in my Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:31 Continuing in Jesus' words is the definition of a disciple. False beliefs compromise your freedom. There is great value in having right beliefs, although that is not what saves you. We're not saved by having all the right doctrines.

But if we are saved, it is good to pursue right doctrine because "the truth will make you free" - freedom is a thing of value. If you have a right relationship with God (which is not the same as having right doctrine), then you don't want to be in bondage. You want to be free to serve Him, so it's good to know as much of the truth as possible.

We should be zealous for truth, and the kind of people who often participate in exploration, dialogues, and even debates over doctrine. We should be interested in discovering which belief among many options, within the Christian fold, is actually what the Bible teaches.

A lover of truth will want to explore issues about which maybe several opinions can exist among Christians. They realize they'll be saved even if they don't have the right view on a given subject that is not a salvation issue, but that doesn't mean that they don't have any interest in knowing the truth. If God has taken the pains to talk about a specific issue, He obviously wants us to learn about that issue, so we should pursue learning it.

If I say that it doesn't really matter what I believe about Jesus because I'm still going to heaven, I am not thinking correctly or even Biblically. Jesus said, "Take My yoke upon you, and LEARN from Me ..." Matthew 11:29 To become a disciple of Jesus, we must take His yoke upon us and LEARN. He will be guiding, directing, and teaching us.

The years we have spent NOT being His disciple, were not years where we were absorbing (or learning) nothing. We were absorbing all kinds of ideas, attitudes, and beliefs, many of which were not right. Now there's much to UNLEARN. We need to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. We do that by walking with Him, under His yoke and His teaching.

We should be zealous for learning, to examine everything carefully, and not be gullible. If we love God, we will want to have a passion to learn more about Him, and have a true theological understanding. A passion for theological inquiry will be there, if you love the truth. If you don't love the truth, you may not even be saved.

Knowing, trusting, and loving Jesus is the first priority, which transfers us out of the kingdom of darkness, into the Kingdom of God's Son. However, once we are in His Kingdom, He expects us to learn things and grow.

He's not waiting for you to have 97% perfect doctrine before He's happy with you. But if you love the truth, wouldn't you want to learn as much of it as you can? If you're not interested in truth, in what sense are you a follower of Jesus? He said that He is the truth. We should be obsessed with Him.

Steve Gregg
From his radio program on thenarrowpath.com

 

[dwight92070]

There is one thing in I've noticed, in particular, on Bible forums. That is - extremely long posts. Some answer questions that nobody is asking. Some seem to think that they're writing their doctoral thesis. Some seem to pride themselves in revealing how much intense and in-depth studies they have completed on a particular topic. Some seem to forget that this is supposed to be a dialogue, not a monologue. Some seem to think that they are the professor, giving a lecture to all of their students. Some seem to forget that all of us have Bibles, so they quote a huge section of scripture, which all of us could have just looked up - scores of verses.
I think the truth about a subject can be addressed without writing a book about it. Not only that, but you will be saving your time and ours, if you are clear and concise. I don't know about others, but often I just skip the long posts. I don't have as much time as apparently they do.

 

[MatthewG]

There is one thing in I've noticed, in particular, on Bible forums. That is - extremely long posts. Some answer questions that nobody is asking. Some seem to think that they're writing their doctoral thesis. Some seem to pride themselves in revealing how much intense and in-depth studies they have completed on a particular topic. Some seem to forget that this is supposed to be a dialogue, not a monologue. Some seem to think that they are the professor, giving a lecture to all of their students. Some seem to forget that all of us have Bibles, so they quote a huge section of scripture, which all of us could have just looked up - scores of verses.
I think the truth about a subject can be addressed without writing a book about it. Not only that, but you will be saving your time and ours, if you are clear and concise. I don't know about others, but often I just skip the long posts. I don't have as much time as apparently they do.

Hello Dwight,

Most certainly you are right. A Bible can be picked up and read, even studied. Can get as close the truth as one can get to on subjects, and overall, one shares for others to hopefully benefit some from the lesson. Is there benefit in this subject here? One is seeing the reason why “God didn’t die in body of Jesus, because God abandoned him on the cross as he faced death and had taken on sin in a body that never did by giving up his life.” The Word of God, within Yeshua, didn’t die either as it’s basically the soul in Yeshua, which expresses the one whom “speaks the Word,” heart being mind/will/emotion or soul… Yeshua virtue of being the Word, goes on to hell and preaches a message there to the prisoners before leaving… and Yahweh rose him up from the dead on the third day after burial.


Is there profit in knowing these things? Don’t know. All I know is a person who lives for Yahweh, will continue to desire to teach about him, or other subjects pertaining to other manners, maybe Satan, Sin, sanctification, end days, spiritual guidance, etc.., even while suggesting they could be wrong about it all.

 

[MatthewG]

Did you even read the original post? @dwight92070 or was it to much ?

 

[civic]

There is one thing in I've noticed, in particular, on Bible forums. That is - extremely long posts. Some answer questions that nobody is asking. Some seem to think that they're writing their doctoral thesis. Some seem to pride themselves in revealing how much intense and in-depth studies they have completed on a particular topic. Some seem to forget that this is supposed to be a dialogue, not a monologue. Some seem to think that they are the professor, giving a lecture to all of their students. Some seem to forget that all of us have Bibles, so they quote a huge section of scripture, which all of us could have just looked up - scores of verses.
I think the truth about a subject can be addressed without writing a book about it. Not only that, but you will be saving your time and ours, if you are clear and concise. I don't know about others, but often I just skip the long posts. I don't have as much time as apparently they do.

Yes we all like different things when it comes to interacting on forums. Over the years I have learned quite a bit from long dialogues where some really good theology was being discussed and some excellent arguments from both sides. But many don’t like the long posts and that’s ok too. We are all wired differently. Some like 1-1:30 hour sermons while others prefer 15-20 minute ones. Different strokes for different folks as the saying goes.

 

[dwight92070]

Did you even read the original post? @dwight92070 or was it to much ?

Yes, I read the original post, which I didn't think was too long, and it is an intriguing subject.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, I read the original post, which I didn't think was too long, and it is an intriguing subject.

Thank you for your straightforward statement. That meant a lot.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Was the parable of the evil farmers who plot to kill the Son of God, worthy of wrath for killing the Son of God?

May I ask.

Are you worthy of wrath?

There is a huge "hypocrisy" problem with those who seemingly enjoy to talk about "wrath" as a means of "justice".

Haven't you done enough to be included in that wrath? Men seems to only want to consider others when they're talking about justice demanding wrath....

 

[civic]

Hey @civic. Just noticed your reply, as you been on ignore… this took a moment for me to type all out on my phone, if you have a response, I hope it’s meaningful and not a waste of my time to have even …

Make the choice to share…


Let me just ask a simple question…

Was the parable of the evil farmers who plot to kill the Son of God, worthy of wrath for killing the Son of God?



And with Peter proclaiming the last days upon them in Acts… acts 2:14-41.


Though Israel is a nation know by the world in 1948; there is the original 12 tribes, which some where taken as the 144,000 being of the bride of Christ and the rest of the known people of that time who continued to reject the warnings of Yahweh, John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Old Testament prophets concerning these things like the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Came to an end in a generation, the whole former administration was done away with by use of the Law, fulfilled in Jesus fulfilling that covenant which brings forth as you know the new covenant which is instated today, where Yahweh writes his laws on the hearts and minds of those who are his, and he will do that by his spirit, which he gives to believers pouring his love out on their heart.




To me a generation, is 40 years.


I consider this in life… I’m 33 and in 7 years my own generation will be over, 91s are long gone, to the new born babies in 2024.



In all, from Jesus’s prediction concerning the generation “though he did not know the time - a revelation comes which the time was revealed.

Revelation 1:1-2 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant J | Young's Literal Translation 18

A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant J

bible.com

Jesus is revealed knowledge he did not know prior until his Father revealed it to him, and a message going to the 7 churches of Asia are all real people, and we can’t consider them… some people who didn’t exist, … or some people who are yet existing, they did exist… and they read the letter concerning the Revelation…


‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬-‭7‬ ‭YLT98‬‬


In 70Ad the temple was burned down, which also included their “genealogy” that’s why no one today can claim to be of some certain tribe… there is no evidence to provide. All of their everything ; their world was burned down, at the end of the age… and the punishment was taken out by Gods wrath…


‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭16‬-‭20‬ ‭YLT98‬‬



‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭24‬-‭28‬ ‭YLT98‬‬



‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21‬:‭1‬ ‭YLT98‬‬

“The sea, perhaps the Brazen sea, or perhaps a reference to Sheol,” either way, the Brazen sea would be something to consider, it is no longer around, from that prior economy. The former Heaven and earth - pertaining to the age which passes away, are made new by the administration of Jesus, and no one has to show up to Israel in order to see their God. As the walls have been broken down, where all can come to the Son and be able to go the Father, having newness of life and seeing things in a new way in Christ.

I could suggest “Yahweh, used the opposing nation “Ha’Satan” to obliterate those whom were part of that former economy of Israel (not todays modern Israel) — and then “Ha’Satan” which was also Israel for opposing Yahweh, and killing his Son; suffered under the influence of the curses and blessings. With no temple today, it seems that promises of Jesus who said “ they would end up being toppled over” came to fruition… in 70 Ad.


In the end you can say I’m wrong, ignorant, I’m not gonna end up changing my position… in distrusting the promising position of Jesus and his return to a living breathing people… who died for their faith and were the bride of Christ…

nothing there about Gods wrath being done in 70ad.

 

[civic]

This from Calvin-

that he felt himself to be in some measure estranged from him. For not only did he offer his body as the price of our reconciliation with God, but. in his soul also he endured the punishments due to us; and thus he became, as Isaiah speaks,a man of sorrows, (Isa_53:3.)

Those interpreters are widely mistaken who, laying aside this part of redemption, attended solely to the outward punishment of the flesh; for in order that Christ might satisfy for us, (285) it was necessary that he should be placed as a guilty person at the judgment-seat of God.

Now nothing is more dreadful than to feel that God, whose wrath is worse than all deaths, is the Judge. When this temptation was presented to Christ, as if, having God opposed to him, he were already devoted to destruction, he was seized with horror, which would have been sufficient to swallow up a hundred times all the men in the world; but by the amazing power of the Spirit he achieved the victory. Nor is it by hypocrisy, or by assuming a character, that he complains of having been forsaken by the Father.

Some allege that he employed this language in compliance with the opinion of the people, but this is an absurd mode of evading the difficulty; for the inward sadness of his soul was so powerful and violent, that it forced him to break out into a cry. Nor did the redemption which he accomplished consist solely in what was exhibited to the eye, (as I stated a little ago,) but having undertaken to be our surety, he resolved actually to undergo in our room the judgment of God.

But it appear absurd to say that an expression of despair escaped Christ. The reply is easy. Though the perception of the flesh would have led him to dread destruction, still in his heart faith remained firm, by which he beheld the presence of God, of whose absence he complains. We have explained elsewhere how the Divine nature gave way to the weakness of the flesh, so far as was necessary for our salvation, that Christ might accomplish all that was required of the Redeemer. We have likewise pointed out the distinction between the sentiment of nature and the knowledge of faith; and, there ore, the perception of God’s estrangement from him, which Christ had, as suggested by natural feeling, did not hinder him from continuing to be assured by faith that God was reconciled to him. This is sufficiently evident from the two clauses of the complaint; for, before stating the temptation, he begins by saying that he betakes himself to God as his God, and thus by the shield of faith he courageously expels that appearance of forsaking which presented itself on the other side. In short, during this fearful torture his faith remained uninjured, so that, while he complained of being forsaken, he still relied on the aid of God as at hand.

That this expression eminently deserves our attention is evident from the circumstance, that the Holy Spirit, in order to engrave it more deeply on the memory of men, has chosen to relate it in the Syriac language; (286) for this has the same effect as if he made us hear Christ himself repeating the very words which then proceeded from his mouth. So much the more detestable is the indifference of those who lightly pass by, as a matter of jesting, the deep sadness and fearful trembling which Christ endured. No one who considers that Christ undertook the office of Mediator on the condition of suffering our condemnation, both in his body and in his soul, will think it strange that he maintained a struggle with the sorrows of death, as if an offended God had thrown him into a whirlpool of afflictions.
(285) “A fin que Christ fist la satisfaction et le payment pour nous;” — “in order that Christ might make satisfaction and payment for us.”
(286) “A voulu qu’il fust escrit et enregistré en langue Syrienne, de la quelle on usoit lors communément au pays;” — “determined that it should be written and recorded in the Syrian language, which was then commonly used in the country.”

Thank you brother-always waiting for that ONE person to have fellowship with
and correct, I also disagree with Mr. Craig on that but as always, eat the chicken, spit out the bones.

Shalom to you and family
Johann.

From the Bible the primary source of truth- not pastors, theologians etc......

he following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

And we know that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross therefor knowing the Father and Son were not separated and Jesus was never forsaken

2 Corinthians 5:14-21
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.21 God made him who had no sin to be sin]for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

hope this helps !!

 

[MatthewG]

May I ask.

Are you worthy of wrath?

There is a huge "hypocrisy" problem with those who seemingly enjoy to talk about "wrath" as a means of "justice".

Haven't you done enough to be included in that wrath? Men seems to only want to consider others when they're talking about justice demanding wrath....

Yahavah chastens those who are his. Am I deserving of Gods wrath? No. I never was part of that economy… They were demolished… as promised, concerning the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

I believe Gods wrath has been expressed and that was the emptying of the cup of wrath… there is no infinite wrath, and sometimes LORD does avenge those who have been wronged in justice being served for say a family member who was murdered, etc…

Was that something you knew concerning the wrath of God, just being in a cup?

 

[civic]

Yahavah chastens those who are his. Am I deserving of Gods wrath? No. I never was part of that economy… They were demolished… as promised, concerning the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

I believe Gods wrath has been expressed and that was the emptying of the cup of wrath… there is no infinite wrath, and sometimes LORD does avenge those who have been wronged in justice being served for say a family member who was murdered, etc…

Was that something you knew concerning the wrath of God, just being in a cup?

the great a terrible day of the Lord is still future- His 2nd Coming is that day.

next

 

[MatthewG]

nothing there about Gods wrath being done in 70ad.

well there was a million Jewish people laying dead everywhere and put on crucifixes, and the land where the temple once stood was tore down… just because the Bible only has a certain section of history doesn’t mean there is not a history to look into an consider, like such as Satan vs Satan… his kingdom could not stand… Rome and Israel had pact back in the day that ended up being a mistake, when they cut all the sources of food off, and sewage and all kinds of terrible plagues fell upon them. All documented… but ya know… if it’s not in the Bible then it’s probably not true, so forgettaboutit.


Right, that is probably a good attitude to go into, if it’s not in the Bible it’s probably not reliable, just as many people whom made documents concerning the Bible and end time prophecy with trump being president … etc …


Or that in 2046 is when it is Jesus coming back, gotta keep waiting, and waiting? What about the people who were promised in the letters we have?

There has to be some co-relation historically.

 

[civic]

well there was a million Jewish people laying dead everywhere and put on crucifixes, and the land where the temple once stood was tore down… just because the Bible only has a certain section of history doesn’t mean there is not a history to look into an consider, like such as Satan vs Satan… his kingdom could not stand… Rome and Israel had pact back in the day that ended up being a mistake, when they cut all the sources of food off, and sewage and all kinds of terrible plagues fell upon them. All documented… but ya know… if it’s not in the Bible then it’s probably not true, so forgettaboutit.


Right, that is probably a good attitude to go into, if it’s not in the Bible it’s probably not reliable, just as many people whom made documents concerning the Bible and end time prophecy with trump being president … etc …


Or that in 2046 is when it is Jesus coming back, gotta keep waiting, and waiting? What about the people who were promised in the letters we have?

There has to be some co-relation historically.

and Hitler killed many more than that- so what ?

 

[MatthewG]

and Hitler killed many more than that- so what ?

So basically your saying, to hell with what God did, hitler did greater things by killing more? What… My question is … why do so many people want to play off a one time event concerning Yahweh, with the use of Satan, to take out the nation which killed the Son of God…

During Pilates judgment, the people exclaimed “let his blood be on us, and our children.”

Many people really disregard a lot when they compare Gods destruction of the nation of people whom were constantly obstinate and trying to control people by virtue of the Law… Yahweh was going to put an end to it…



But that’s all on you… just cause you mention Hitler it downplays your own knowledge concerning what is written …

Because in the case of most people, the people who are being written to are not important, they are inferior… so therefore this destruction mentioned doesn’t even seem to click in your own mind because… perhaps the apologetics has something to do with it; because your always searching for answers and normally quote them as though they are the direct answer, while swaying the contextual understanding for just a scripture piece for understanding… let alone seeking Yahweh for spiritual understanding.

Maybe I am taking what you are saying wrongly.