Did God, forsake Jesus on the cross?

Interesting discussion and I can understand where both sides are coming from. You do indeed have to look at the whole picture. Because there is definitely a unfathomable mystery here. Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity.

The cry of dereliction is of immense significance. yet even so, the saying is extremely difficult to understand and explain. Explanations often seem to resort to paradoxical language or the language of mystery, or restraint, or even evasion!

So unless we have some top notch biblical scholars here it's probably not going to get solved in this thread. So try to keep a cool head my Brothers. I realize with our finite brains figuring out the bible can be quite a task.
If we begin with God who is Triune, Tri-Unity where all doctrine ( theology - the study of God) should begin then we can know beyond all doubt there was no abandonment of forsaken by the Father toward the Son. That would be separating and dissolving of the perfect Unity within the Trinity. So that is what its heretical because of what it does with Gods perfect nature , being. If God is really love there could never be any forsaking. Love demands it, requires it to be true. God was in Christ ( not forsaking Him) reconciling the world to Himself.

Begin with God and doctrine unites with all of our beliefs and lines them up with Gods nature, character and attributes.

hope this helps !!!
 
Nope-I firmly hold to PSA-still have the book by William L. Craig-what is at stake here is the fact that if I don't believe as you do it is heresy and false teaching.
I'm glad you like books Johann, so do I. This one I have Is a good one. Where's the taste from chapter 1.

Was The Trinity Broken?
The Father, The Son, and Their Cross

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God."

Such a question surely comes from someone who has been unfaithful-and and who now blames God for their abandonment. Otherwise, the only possible explanation must be that this question comes from a truly pious-though mistaken-person who just feels abandoned; doned; it is only the honest cry of someone who believes that she has been forsaken.

But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful. It does not come from a pious person who simply isn't theologically astute enough to know better. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity.

So these words ring out like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. It is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following. The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son.

The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements.

But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim?

In what follows we explore some of these issues. We look first at how a few representative sentative theologians and exegetes (from across the theological spectrum) understand this cry as a rupture within the Trinity, and then we contrast this common understanding with some representative sentative examples from the early church. This contrast will enable us to take a closer look at the cry itself and to come to a better understanding of it.

Thomas H. McCall. Forsaken: The Trinity and the Cross, and Why It Matters
 
Interesting discussion and I can understand where both sides are coming from. You do indeed have to look at the whole picture. Because there is definitely a unfathomable mystery here. Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity.

The cry of dereliction is of immense significance. yet even so, the saying is extremely difficult to understand and explain. Explanations often seem to resort to paradoxical language or the language of mystery, or restraint, or even evasion!

So unless we have some top notch biblical scholars here it's probably not going to get solved in this thread. So try to keep a cool head my Brothers. I realize with our finite brains figuring out the bible can be quite a task.
I would also suggest an excellent book by William L. Craig-


A free PDF @Richard and a hearty welcome to this Forum.
Johann.
 
Take some notes and please ask some questions. It’s my favorite topic these days since it centers around the Trinity.
Will do. I'm going through my own material on this subject right now. I'm digging out a few books and dusting them off. This topic comes up every so often and it's always interesting to see everyone's opinion on it.
 
Will do. I'm going through my own material on this subject right now. I'm digging out a few books and dusting them off. This topic comes up every so often and it's always interesting to see everyone's opinion on it.
I hope you enjoy the study. This is the journey several years ago which led me out of Calvinism. I started questioning things I was taught and heard from the pulpit and seeing how they lined up with the Tri-Unity of God and God being love within His own nature as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The result of that study which I’m still developing is in those 2 links. I will be studying and learning about this until I go to be with the Lord.
 
I'm glad you like books Johann, so do I. This one I have Is a good one. Where's the taste from chapter 1.

Was The Trinity Broken?
The Father, The Son, and Their Cross

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God."

Such a question surely comes from someone who has been unfaithful-and and who now blames God for their abandonment. Otherwise, the only possible explanation must be that this question comes from a truly pious-though mistaken-person who just feels abandoned; doned; it is only the honest cry of someone who believes that she has been forsaken.

But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful. It does not come from a pious person who simply isn't theologically astute enough to know better. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity.

So these words ring out like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. It is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following. The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son.

The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements.

But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim?

In what follows we explore some of these issues. We look first at how a few representative sentative theologians and exegetes (from across the theological spectrum) understand this cry as a rupture within the Trinity, and then we contrast this common understanding with some representative sentative examples from the early church. This contrast will enable us to take a closer look at the cry itself and to come to a better understanding of it.

Thomas H. McCall. Forsaken: The Trinity and the Cross, and Why It Matters
Thank you but I can see where this is going @Fitzpatrick. Have you read the book by William L. Craig on the Atonement?
 
I'm glad you like books Johann, so do I. This one I have Is a good one. Where's the taste from chapter 1.

Was The Trinity Broken?
The Father, The Son, and Their Cross

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" The question shocks us-so much so that it may seem wrong-headed from the start. Those of us who believe in the faithfulness and justice of God might be tempted to think that whoever asks such a question is fundamentally mistaken, and indeed that the question itself demonstrates a flawed understanding of God. "Don't you know? God doesn't forsake anyone! You must have forsaken God."

Such a question surely comes from someone who has been unfaithful-and and who now blames God for their abandonment. Otherwise, the only possible explanation must be that this question comes from a truly pious-though mistaken-person who just feels abandoned; doned; it is only the honest cry of someone who believes that she has been forsaken.

But this question, of course, does not come from someone who has been unfaithful. It does not come from a pious person who simply isn't theologically astute enough to know better. It comes from the lips of none other than Jesus Christ. It comes from the only one who has been utterly faithful. It comes from the one of whom the Father said, "This is my beloved son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Mt 3:17). It comes from the one who is the eternal Logos (Jn 1:1), the second person of the Trinity.

So these words ring out like a thunderbolt. My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me? Why? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Why have you forsaken me? Many devout Christians understand this as nothing less than a scream of total desperation, and they do not hesitate to take this cry as anything less than an expression of a complete and total rupture in the life of the triune God. It is very common, especially among conservative evangelical Christians who strongly defend the necessity and sufficiency of Christ's atoning work, to hear statements such as the following. The Father rejected the Son. As he exhausted his wrath upon the Son, the Father completely abandoned the Son. The Father hid his face from the Son. Jesus "became sin." Therefore the Father's wrath was poured out on Jesus. The Father turned away from the Son.

The physical pain Christ suffered in his passion was nothing in comparison to the spiritual and relational pain that Christ endured as he was separated from his Father. God cursed Jesus with damnation. The eternal communion between the Father and the Son was ruptured on that fateful day. The Trinity was broken. Many preachers-especially in the sermons of those who believe that Jesus Christ was our substitute in the sense that he paid the penalty for our sins-make such solemn pronouncements.

But such claims raise some interesting, and very important, questions. Is such a view of Christ's abandonment really necessary for a robust view of the gospel? Is it even consistent with the good news? Jesus seems to be quoting from Psalm 22, which begins with apparent despair but ends in confidence and hope: could this be important? Must we say that the Father-Son relationship was ruptured? Indeed, can we even say that the Trinity was broken-or or are there troubling implications of such a claim?

In what follows we explore some of these issues. We look first at how a few representative sentative theologians and exegetes (from across the theological spectrum) understand this cry as a rupture within the Trinity, and then we contrast this common understanding with some representative sentative examples from the early church. This contrast will enable us to take a closer look at the cry itself and to come to a better understanding of it.

Thomas H. McCall. Forsaken: The Trinity and the Cross, and Why It Matters
Excellent book. I read that after I wrote my thesis paper which confirmed my findings were correct. 👍

I will be taking some of his quotes and others and will add them to my paper.
 
Thank you but I can see where this is going @Fitzpatrick. Have you read the book by William L. Craig on the Atonement?
I did follow your links and I found a review of the book. I've never read any of his books.


Where Mr. Craig and I disagree is on assurance of salvation, our eternal security. I'm a firm believer that Jesus never loses any of his sheep.
Whereas Mr. Craig believes you can lose your salvation.
 
I'm glad you like books Johann, so do I. This one I have Is a good one. Where's the taste from chapter 1.

Was The Trinity Broken?
The Father, The Son, and Their Cross
This from Calvin-

that he felt himself to be in some measure estranged from him. For not only did he offer his body as the price of our reconciliation with God, but. in his soul also he endured the punishments due to us; and thus he became, as Isaiah speaks,a man of sorrows, (Isa_53:3.)

Those interpreters are widely mistaken who, laying aside this part of redemption, attended solely to the outward punishment of the flesh; for in order that Christ might satisfy for us, (285) it was necessary that he should be placed as a guilty person at the judgment-seat of God.

Now nothing is more dreadful than to feel that God, whose wrath is worse than all deaths, is the Judge. When this temptation was presented to Christ, as if, having God opposed to him, he were already devoted to destruction, he was seized with horror, which would have been sufficient to swallow up a hundred times all the men in the world; but by the amazing power of the Spirit he achieved the victory. Nor is it by hypocrisy, or by assuming a character, that he complains of having been forsaken by the Father.

Some allege that he employed this language in compliance with the opinion of the people, but this is an absurd mode of evading the difficulty; for the inward sadness of his soul was so powerful and violent, that it forced him to break out into a cry. Nor did the redemption which he accomplished consist solely in what was exhibited to the eye, (as I stated a little ago,) but having undertaken to be our surety, he resolved actually to undergo in our room the judgment of God.

But it appear absurd to say that an expression of despair escaped Christ. The reply is easy. Though the perception of the flesh would have led him to dread destruction, still in his heart faith remained firm, by which he beheld the presence of God, of whose absence he complains. We have explained elsewhere how the Divine nature gave way to the weakness of the flesh, so far as was necessary for our salvation, that Christ might accomplish all that was required of the Redeemer. We have likewise pointed out the distinction between the sentiment of nature and the knowledge of faith; and, there ore, the perception of God’s estrangement from him, which Christ had, as suggested by natural feeling, did not hinder him from continuing to be assured by faith that God was reconciled to him. This is sufficiently evident from the two clauses of the complaint; for, before stating the temptation, he begins by saying that he betakes himself to God as his God, and thus by the shield of faith he courageously expels that appearance of forsaking which presented itself on the other side. In short, during this fearful torture his faith remained uninjured, so that, while he complained of being forsaken, he still relied on the aid of God as at hand.

That this expression eminently deserves our attention is evident from the circumstance, that the Holy Spirit, in order to engrave it more deeply on the memory of men, has chosen to relate it in the Syriac language; (286) for this has the same effect as if he made us hear Christ himself repeating the very words which then proceeded from his mouth. So much the more detestable is the indifference of those who lightly pass by, as a matter of jesting, the deep sadness and fearful trembling which Christ endured. No one who considers that Christ undertook the office of Mediator on the condition of suffering our condemnation, both in his body and in his soul, will think it strange that he maintained a struggle with the sorrows of death, as if an offended God had thrown him into a whirlpool of afflictions.
(285) “A fin que Christ fist la satisfaction et le payment pour nous;” — “in order that Christ might make satisfaction and payment for us.”
(286) “A voulu qu’il fust escrit et enregistré en langue Syrienne, de la quelle on usoit lors communément au pays;” — “determined that it should be written and recorded in the Syrian language, which was then commonly used in the country.”
I did follow your links and I found a review of the book. I've never read any of his books.


Where Mr. Craig and I disagree is on assurance of salvation, our eternal security. I'm a firm believer that Jesus never loses any of his sheep.
Whereas Mr. Craig believes you can lose your salvation.
Thank you brother-always waiting for that ONE person to have fellowship with
and correct, I also disagree with Mr. Craig on that but as always, eat the chicken, spit out the bones.

Shalom to you and family
Johann.
 
I did follow your links and I found a review of the book. I've never read any of his books.


Where Mr. Craig and I disagree is on assurance of salvation, our eternal security. I'm a firm believer that Jesus never loses any of his sheep.
Whereas Mr. Craig believes you can lose your salvation.
He is a bit philosophical and you can watch him debating PSA on YouTube-there's more I want to share, but not now.

Here is one of many Scriptures I believe we have assurance of salvation and that Jesus NEVER loses any of His sheep.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The Greek Grammar is majestic.
 
He is a bit philosophical and you can watch him debating PSA on YouTube-there's more I want to share, but not now.

Here is one of many Scriptures I believe we have assurance of salvation and that Jesus NEVER loses any of His sheep.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The Greek Grammar is majestic.
The Tri-Unity of God is majestic. We don’t need the Greek or Hebrew to understand God through many excellent English translations.

hope this helps !!!
 
The Tri-Unity of God is majestic. We don’t need the Greek or Hebrew to understand God through many excellent English translations.

hope this helps !!!
Koine Greek and Hebrew is not for most-but that is how I study-every day me and my brother in Christ have fellowship searching the Scriptures daily and I believe @synergy study that way as well.
And I have an excellent cross reference software and still praying for a Accordance Bible Software-unfortunately don't have the finances to get the paid version.
Until then, still praying.
 
I haven't heard this one in a while.

The cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed. . . . If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies. . . the idea that God was an angry deity, requiring a sacrifice to propitiate his wrath was surely more like an ancient pagan god than the Father of Jesus Christ.

Alan Mann’s now-famous line in The Lost Message of Jesus:
 
I haven't heard this one in a while.

The cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed. . . . If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies. . . the idea that God was an angry deity, requiring a sacrifice to propitiate his wrath was surely more like an ancient pagan god than the Father of Jesus Christ.

Alan Mann’s now-famous line in The Lost Message of Jesus:
Some take PSA too far, as you have shown-fact is, this is my belief-the vicarious substitutionary atonement PSA and nothing on this planet is going to convince me otherwise.
 
I haven't heard this one in a while.

The cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed. . . . If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies. . . the idea that God was an angry deity, requiring a sacrifice to propitiate his wrath was surely more like an ancient pagan god than the Father of Jesus Christ.

Alan Mann’s now-famous line in The Lost Message of Jesus:
Mr. Craig has an excellent counter rebuttal to this.
 
He is a bit philosophical and you can watch him debating PSA on YouTube-there's more I want to share, but not now.

Here is one of many Scriptures I believe we have assurance of salvation and that Jesus NEVER loses any of His sheep.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The Greek Grammar is majestic.
Some Church Fathers-
When a single ray of light shines into a prism, it refracts into the colors of the rainbow. No one color is more prominent than the others, but each contributes to the beauty of light.

We might liken the doctrine of the atonement in the early church to a single ray that enters a prism and refracts into many colors of doctrine. These fathers and mothers of the church appreciated and exhausted the various ways Scripture speaks of Christ’s work on the cross. Penal substitutionary atonement—the idea that Jesus was punished in our place—is certainly one of those colors, even if it’s no brighter than the other colors in their writings.

And here we must navigate between two wrong ideas. The first error, which is the most common among scholars, is to suggest that the early church never spoke of penal substitution, which I hope to dispel. The second error, more common among evangelicals, is to overstate the case and read penal substitution into texts.

We might liken the doctrine of the atonement in the early church to a single ray that enters a prism and refracts into many beautiful colors of doctrine.


And in our search for penal substitution, we run the risk of missing out on many of the other beautiful ways the early church spoke of the atonement, from Christus Victor (the Ransom Theory) to Christus Medicus (Christ as our Healer). At the risk of being monochromatic, some evangelicals have undervalued the full array of the atonement—and so we could benefit from those who saw the entire spectrum, even if we rightly continue to see penal substitution as the foundation of the atonement. Steering between these two errors, I want to sample three church fathers and one church mother to show that the concept of penal substitution was present in the early church.

Clement

Before turning to examples that seem clear to me, I want to start with an excerpt from 1 Clement, since it serves as a caution against seeing penal substitution everywhere in early Christian theology. First Clement is the earliest writing we have after the New Testament. It was yet another letter to the wayward Corinthian church that still couldn’t get along.

In focusing on the love of God and exhorting those in Corinth to follow Jesus’s example of love, Clement wrote, “Because of the love that he had for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, in accordance with God’s will, gave his blood for us, and his flesh for our flesh, and his life for our lives” (1 Clem. 49:6).

Tucked into what we might call a moral example theory of the atonement is the notion of substitution. Jesus expressed his great love by substituting himself in our stead. But just because there is substitution doesn’t mean there is penal substitution, because there must be a penalty involved to make it penal substitution, which is not clear in this text.

The concept of substitution was widespread in the first few centuries, which has led some students of the early church to overread these texts; but there must be a link to a legal idea, which the next three examples draw out.

Eusebius of Caesarea
One of the best pieces of evidence for penal substitution comes from a surprising source: Eusebius of Caesarea, best known for his Ecclesiastical History. He wrote a lesser-known book, The Proof of the Gospel, to persuade unbelievers and to strengthen the faith of believers.

At one point, he takes great pains to lay out the curses of the Mosaic law and the penalties it required. Sin always demands a penalty. Quoting from Isaiah 53:5 (“he was pierced for our transgressions”), Eusebius argues:

“In this he shows that Christ, being apart from all sin, will receive the sins of men on himself. And therefore he will suffer the penalty of sinners, and will be pained on their behalf; and not on his own” (Proof of the Gospel, 3.2).

Here is the essence of penal substitution—Jesus took our penalty on himself so that we might be spared God’s wrath. Many scholars have failed to see the explicit connection between the atonement and penalty in the early church, and yet here is a clear example. Throughout Eusebius’s work, penalty is mentioned several times as it relates to Christ bearing the punishment we deserved.

Macrina the Younger
Several of the most important figures in the fourth-century Trinitarian debates were the Cappadocian Fathers—Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory Nazianzus. But Basil and Gregory of Nyssa had a sister who was also well-known in their day, Macrina the Younger, whom her brothers looked to as the model of piety and love for Christ. After she died, Gregory of Nyssa wrote about her life and quoted her final words:

You redeemed us from the curse and from sin, having become both on our behalf. You have crushed the heads of the serpent who had seized man in his jaws because of the abyss of our disobedience. You have opened up for us a path to the resurrection, having broken down the gates of hell and reduced to impotence the one who had power over death.

Hell is the penalty and Satan the enemy. And yet Christ has redeemed us by becoming both our sin and our curse on our behalf. He substituted himself and paid the penalty of sin’s curse. Macrina’s dying words brimmed with hope in the substitution of Christ, redemption from sin, triumph over the Devil, and the expectation of resurrection.

Epistle to Diognetus
The crown jewel of penal substitution in the early church is found in the second-century apologetic work called the Epistle to Diognetus. Although lengthy, this paragraph is the single best description of penal substitution in the first few centuries, and quite possibly in the history of the church:

In his mercy he took upon himself our sins; he himself gave up his own Son as a ransom for us, the holy one for the lawless, the guiltless for the guilty, the just for the unjust, the incorruptible for the corruptible, the immortal for the mortal. For what else but his righteousness could have covered our sins? In whom was it possible for us, the lawless and ungodly, to be justified, except in the Son of God alone? O the sweet exchange, O the incomprehensible work of God, O the unexpected blessings, that the sinfulness of many should be hidden in one righteous person, while the righteousness of one should justify many sinners! (Epistle to Diognetus, 9.2–5).

The crown jewel of penal substitution in the early church is found in the Epistle to Diognetus.


“O sweet exchange!” Christ for us! Jesus took on our sins because he was holy, guiltless, just, incorruptible, and immortal, whereas we are lawless, guilty, unjust, corruptible, and mortal. We needed to hide our sins in him and to receive his righteousness, a beautiful expression of double imputation (our sins to Jesus; his righteousness to us). But notice, too, that he mentions Christ as our ransom. In this one passage, several hues of the atonement are present.

For a further read-


 
@Johann was nice to read some of your actual thoughts on the subject having read the comments here. Everyone must, think and choose what they will concerning this matter. I still view it as God in Christ leaving him, which Yeshua gives up his life - with the hope, faith, and love just as equal as when they were together before sin overtook the body of Yeshua whom willingly gives over his life, and dies on the cross. These are just my take away from my own personal perspective which may or may not be wrong.
 
I haven't heard this one in a while.

The cross isn’t a form of cosmic child abuse—a vengeful Father, punishing his Son for an offence he has not even committed. . . . If the cross is a personal act of violence perpetrated by God towards humankind but borne by his Son, then it makes a mockery of Jesus’ own teaching to love your enemies. . . the idea that God was an angry deity, requiring a sacrifice to propitiate his wrath was surely more like an ancient pagan god than the Father of Jesus Christ.

Alan Mann’s now-famous line in The Lost Message of Jesus:

The belief that Jesus died for us, suffering the wrath of his own Father in our place, has been the wellspring of hope for countless Christians through the ages. However, with an increasing number of theologians, church leaders, and even popular Christian books and magazines questioning this doctrine, which naysayers have described as a form of "cosmic child abuse," a fresh articulation and affirmation of penal substitution is needed. And Jeffery, Ovey, and Sach have responded here with clear exposition and analysis.

They make the case not only that the doctrine is clearly taught in Scripture, but that it has an impeccable pedigree and a central place in Christian theology, and that its neglect has serious consequences. The authors also systematically analyze over twenty specific objections that have been brought against penal substitution and charitably but firmly offer a defining declaration of the doctrine of the cross for any concerned reader.
 
@Johann was nice to read some of your actual thoughts on the subject having read the comments here. Everyone must, think and choose what they will concerning this matter. I still view it as God in Christ leaving him, which Yeshua gives up his life - with the hope, faith, and love just as equal as when they were together before sin overtook the body of Yeshua whom willingly gives over his life, and dies on the cross. These are just my take away from my own personal perspective which may or may not be wrong.
Thanks @MatthewG but you will be shocked how many are against PSA-hope you are not.

The chattat or sin offering in the Hebrew Scriptures was made to atone for unintentional sins and to purify the sanctuary from the spiritual stain of sin, even when no intentional wrongdoing had occurred.

The sin offering was not just about clearing one's conscience or acquiring forgiveness, but about cleansing the spiritual realm.

While the blood of animals could only cleanse the flesh, Jesus' offering was done in the spiritual realm to provide true atonement and redemption that the animal sacrifices could not accomplish.

Jesus is explicitly described in the New Testament as being "made sin" or a "sin offering" on our behalf, taking on the role of the chattat sacrifice to deal with sin in a way the animal offerings could not.

The key scripture reference that demonstrates Jesus as the fulfillment of the chattat (sin) offering is 2 Corinthians 5:21, which states: "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

But you have to consider this @MatthewG --

Jesus, being sinless, was made sin for us so that through Him, we might become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21)

This act of Jesus becoming sin does not mean that He actually became sin itself, nor does it imply that He became a sinner or was guilty of sin

The concept of imputation is crucial in understanding how Jesus became sin for us. Our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross, allowing Him to pay our sin debt to God, while His righteousness is imputed to us through faith

Through imputation, Jesus, though sinless, was treated as if He were not, bearing the weight of all the sin in the world as our substitute and receiving God's judgment against sin on our behalf.

Shalom
 
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