Did God, forsake Jesus on the cross?

I’m telling you I’ll bet my salvation on it I’m 100% correct.

Are you that confident ?
I’m confident enough to say, that Jesus, in and by his flesh, is not Yahavah. He was the expressed image of him, he is not above Yahavah… why has no one answered my question concerning when Jesus gives the kingdom to his Father, he is still subject to the one whom gave him all things?



You’re willingly enough to bank your life on your studies or what men say, but your not willingly enough to listen and look to what Jesus says in which we worship the Father, who is Yahavah…

Jesus is the Word of God and the very expression of Yahavah, in which he sent to die for the world… Jesus is not above his Father and I do not understand how you would believe or even think that he is.
 
I’m confident enough to say, that Jesus, in and by his flesh, is not Yahavah. He was the expressed image of him, he is not above Yahavah… why has no one answered my question concerning when Jesus gives the kingdom to his Father, he is still subject to the one whom gave him all things?



You’re willingly enough to bank your life on your studies or what men say, but your not willingly enough to listen and look to what Jesus says in which we worship the Father, who is Yahavah…

Jesus is the Word of God and the very expression of Yahavah, in which he sent to die for the world… Jesus is not above his Father and I do not understand how you would believe or even think that he is.

Yahavah..... Yeah. Right.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be eliminated is death.
1Co 15:27 For he has put everything in subjection under his feet. But when it says “everything” has been put in subjection, it is clear that this does not include the one who put everything in subjection to him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all. NET

We find the reason in verse 29

1Co 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they baptized for them?

Added with the beginning of this thought found in verse 23

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

You see a clear picture of the "operations" of God in humanity. In operation, Christ is subject to the Father.

When God does something.... all of God does it together. There is no division in the Holy Trinity.

Paul is making a logical argument relative to completion.
 
Thank you for participating in the topic that we just discussed.

I have already openly admitted, that I do not accept the trinity, as it is a tradition of man. To suggest anyone has to hold that doctrine in order to be made right with Yahavah is not telling truth in which it is faith in the raised Lord Yeshua, which we have peace with Yahavah, because of the holy spirit which he gives to you as a believer.

Can you elaborate upon how you value Jesus less than the Father?

Seems rather dangerous to me.
 
Can you elaborate upon how you value Jesus less than the Father?

Seems rather dangerous to me.

I do not believe in the holy trinity... it's a bunch of manmade traditions...

People still miss what the bible clearly conveys in search of a concept that is "ununderstandable as it is."

I do not get that. You can say it is dangerous to you, but I am just going by what Jesus had expressed for people to do. That was to worship his Father in spirit and truth.
 
You see a clear picture of the "operations" of God in humanity. In operation, Christ is subject to the Father.

I believe you have this information wrong sir.

God was in Christ, Yahavah was in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Yahavah was in Christ, which indwelled the Lord Yeshua. Just as the Spirit of Yahavah had indwelled the Lord Yeshua. Yahavah, is the Father whom is helping the Lord Yeshua, by and through the Spirit, and teaching him the things to say, and speak, as he goes along his life, having free will choice of his own merit. Yeshua desired to the will of Yahavah, his Father, whom is the God of Israel.

I do not understand how people continue to insinuate Jesus is God, unless they are telling me God died on the cross... That is just a bunch bull hockey. There are many defining ways to teach, how Yeshua is the expressed image of God, and how Yeshua is the Word of Yahavah, and that He was with God in the beginning and was God (because of being part of God - in being the Spoken Word.)

Christ, - being Yahavah, wouldn't be in subjection to himself. However, the Lord Yeshua, as the Word of God is subject to the Father, and is not one over him, even though he was the expressed image of God, by and through his life served with Yahavah, his Father helped him.
 
I do not believe in the holy trinity... it's a bunch of manmade traditions...

People still miss what the bible clearly conveys in search of a concept that is "ununderstandable as it is."

I do not get that. You can say it is dangerous to you, but I am just going by what Jesus had expressed for people to do. That was to worship his Father in spirit and truth.
And the Apostles worshipped Jesus, the angels worship Him, all of heaven worships Him, those He healed worshipped Him.

For Jesus to allow anyone to worship Him if He is not YHWH is idolatry and causing everyone to sin by breaking the first commandment.

That is your dilemma that you have placed yourself in by denying Jesus is God/YHWH.

He is either God and its ok to worship Him or He is not God causing everyone to sin. There is no other way around this fact.

hope this helps !!!
 
And the Apostles worshipped Jesus, the angels worship Him, all of heaven worships Him, those He healed worshipped Him.

For Jesus to allow anyone to worship Him if He is not YHWH is idolatry and causing everyone to sin by breaking the first commandment.

That is your dilemma ou have placed yourself in by denying Jesus is God/YHWH.

hope this helps !!!

I believe we are to worship as Yeshua had proclaimed to worship should be done.

John 4:20-26​

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain. But you Jews say that Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.”
21 Jesus said, “Believe me, woman! The time is coming when you will not have to be in Jerusalem or on this mountain to worship the Father. 22 You Samaritans worship something you don’t understand. We Jews understand what we worship, since salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. In fact, that time is now here. And these are the kind of people the Father wants to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit. So the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that the Messiah is coming.” (He is the one called Christ.) “When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus said, “He is talking to you now—I am the Messiah.”

I am not in any type of dilemma. I know what I believe about Jesus... and I believe he taught us to seek out and worship his Father in spirit and in truth... You can see through the narrative where Jesus is worshiped. But Jesus said, we should worship our Father in heaven, in spirit and in truth....

Who is your Father? Is it Jesus? Or is it Jesus's God Yahavah? He worshiped him in spirit and in truth. What are we suppose to do? Jesus is not Yahavah...
 
I believe we are to worship as Yeshua had proclaimed to worship should be done.

John 4:20-26​

20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain. But you Jews say that Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.”
21 Jesus said, “Believe me, woman! The time is coming when you will not have to be in Jerusalem or on this mountain to worship the Father. 22 You Samaritans worship something you don’t understand. We Jews understand what we worship, since salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth. In fact, that time is now here. And these are the kind of people the Father wants to be his worshipers. 24 God is spirit. So the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that the Messiah is coming.” (He is the one called Christ.) “When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus said, “He is talking to you now—I am the Messiah.”

I am not in any type of dilemma. I know what I believe about Jesus... and I believe he taught us to seek out and worship his Father in spirit and in truth... You can see through the narrative where Jesus is worshiped. But Jesus said, we should worship our Father in heaven, in spirit and in truth....

Who is your Father? Is it Jesus? Or is it Jesus's God Yahavah? He worshiped him in spirit and in truth. What are we suppose to do?
Jesus is worshipped in heaven. So your argument fails. Jesus is the Way and the Truth and the Life. Only God can send the Spirit yet Jesus sent the Spirit.
 
Jesus is worshipped in heaven. So your argument fails.
So I am not to listen to what Jesus said? And listen to what civic, states for me to do? Jesus spoke about worshipping his Father in spirit and truth. If that doesn't matter to you then I do not know what else to say, @civic.
 
I believe that 100% of worship goes to Yahavah, the God of Israel, just as Jesus had modeled in his life. Not to follow after man, and their traditions, and the I am right about this attitude and if you disagree, you are in trouble big time with God, rhetoric.

People should be able to think for themselves. Do not follow what man says.
 
So I am not to listen to what Jesus said? And listen to what civic, states for me to do? Jesus spoke about worshipping his Father in spirit and truth. If that doesn't matter to you then I do not know what else to say, @civic.
Only the true God deserves to be worshipped.

Listen to scripture!


Matthew 4:9,10 - Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.

Revelation 9:20 - Idolatry is forbidden because it constitutes worship of someone other than God (Exodus 20:3-6; Deuteronomy 6:13-15; Revelation 14:9-11). [See also Exodus 34:14]

Note: proskunew is forbidden when used for obeisance to men from a spiritual or religious motivation or purpose. The word is sometimes (but rarely) used in the New Testament non-religiously to refer to bowing in obeisance to a king, master, or other person in authority (see Matthew 18:26 - this usage is more common in the Old Testament).

When used for religious honor, however, worship is forbidden toward any except God. In this sense, "worship" is like "lord," "father," "master," etc. The words may be acceptably used for earthly, physical relationships (Ephesians 6:1-9; Colossians 3:21,22), but we are forbidden to use such as religious honor to men or created things (Matthew 23:8-12). [On Revelation 3:9, cf. to 1 Corinthians 14:25]

The concept of Deity distinguishes the Creator from the creature. Things which are created do not have the unique characteristics of God, do not do the unique works of God, and therefore should not be addressed by the unique names of God nor should they be worshipped.

But Jesus received the unique worship God deserves.

He was often worshipped while He appeared on earth before His resurrection.

Matthew 8:2 - A leper came and worshipped Jesus. [9:18; 15:25; Mark 5:6]

Matthew 14:33 - After Jesus had calmed the storm, the disciples worshipped Him saying He was the Son of God.

John 9:38 - After Jesus had healed the blind man, He revealed Himself to be the Son of God (v35). The man said he believed, and he worshipped Jesus.

Note that such religious worship would have been blasphemy and should have been forbidden as it was in the case of Peter, the angel, etc., if Jesus had been just a man on earth.

Created beings also worship Him after His resurrection.

Matthew 28:9,17 - After His resurrection, His disciples worshipped Him. [Cf. John 20:28,29]

Luke 24:52 - Even after He had ascended back to heaven, they worshipped Him.

Hebrews 1:6 - Angels are instructed by God to worship Jesus.

Note that men were rebuked for worshipping men, angels, or created beings, but they were never rebuked for worshipping Jesus. Angels are even instructed by the Father to worship Jesus. The context of the above passages cannot fit the idea of obeisance to an earthly king or ruler. They refer to honoring Jesus as a religious authority - the very thing forbidden when offered to Peter, angels, etc.

Hence, Jesus accepted worship as an act of religious honor. The Scriptures, including Jesus' own teachings, would absolutely forbid this unless He possesses true Deity.

B. Glory and Honor​

"Glory" (doxa) means "...praise, honor ... magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace ... majesty" - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.

"Honor" (timh) means "...honor which belongs or is shown to one; the honor of one who outranks others, pre-eminence ... veneration ... deference, reverence..." - Grimm-Wilke-Thayer.

Like the words "power" and "wisdom," both these words can properly be used to refer to men in the physical realm (Matthew 6:29; 1 Peter 1:24). But they are also used to describe a special degree of glory which no one but God can possess.

God receives a special, unique glory and honor.

Psalm 24:7-10 - Jehovah is the "King of glory."

Psalm 29:3 - He is the "God of glory." [Acts 7:2; cf. Isaiah 60:19; Galatians 1:5; etc.]

Revelation 4:9-11 - God deserves this glory because He created all things. Note again the distinction between the creature and the Creator. [Revelation 5:13; Romans 11:36]

Isaiah 42:8; 48:11 - This glory is unique to God in that He refuses to share it with anyone else. Idols and created things have no right to receive this glory.

It follows that it would be blasphemy for anyone but God to receive this unique kind of glory. If anyone does receive this glory with God's approval, then that one must possess Deity.

But Jesus receives the unique glory of God.

John 5:23 - All men should honor the Son "just as" they honor the Father. To fail to give this honor to the Son is to fail to properly honor the Father.

"Just as" (kathos) is translated "even as" in KJV, ASV, NASB, RSV (cf. Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich). Other examples of its use in comparisons is found in Luke 6:31; 11:30; 17:26; John 3:14; 2 Corinthians 10:7; Colossians 3:13; etc.

The significance of the word, when used in comparisons, is that one item or action is just like the other regarding the aspect in which they are being compared. Hence Jesus rightly receives honor just like the honor the Father receives. And if we refuse to give such honor to the Son, then we are refusing to honor the Father!

John 17:5 - Jesus prayed to the Father to "glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (NKJV, cf. NASB, NEB; others are similar - ASV, KJV). Jesus asks to be glorified together with the Father with the glory He possessed "with" (para) the Father from eternity.

The clear implication is that Jesus and the Father both possessed the same glory before the world began. Jesus, in coming to earth as a servant, did not then appear to possess that glory but appeared as a man (this is part of what he gave up on coming to earth - Philippians 2:6-8). But having nearly completed His work on earth (John 17:4) and being ready to ascend to the Father, Jesus anticipated receiving this glory again (Philippians 2:9-11).

However, we have already learned that no one but God can receive the glory God has (Isaiah 42:8; 48:11). Jesus did receive that glory with the approval of the Father. Therefore, Jesus possesses Deity.

Revelation 5:12-14 - Both the Father and the Lamb (Jesus) were praised by the created things, who attributed to them "blessing and honor and glory and power." Note that the same glory and honor belongs to both Father and Son.

Hebrews 1:3 - Jesus is the brightness of the Father's glory (or the effulgence or radiance of His glory). That glory which shines from the Father also shines from Jesus because He is the creator (v2), upholds all things (v3), and is the express image of God (v3).

1 Corinthians 2:8; James 2:1 - Jesus is called the "Lord of glory," just as God in the Old Testament is called the "King of glory" (Psalm 24:7-10).

Note that the glory Jesus possesses is not just the glory possessed by men or angels. His glory is above that of angels (Hebrews 1:6,13). He is above all principality, power, might, dominion, and every name that is named (Ephesians 1:21; Philippians 2:9-11). No created being possesses the glory and honor Jesus does.

We have seen, however, that Jesus deserves the glory, honor, and worship of Deity even as the Father does. God forbids this to be given to any but Deity, but Jesus does receive it. This would be blasphemy if Jesus were not God.

Conclusion​

If Jesus is not Deity, then who is He? To understand God we must realize that God is not part of the created things. God is the Creator, separate and far above the creatures. This distinction is made again and again in the passages we have studied. Jesus must be classed on one side or the other. Either he is a created being or else He is Deity. To say He is not Deity is to say He is a created being. To say He is not a created being is to say He is Deity. There are no other alternatives.

Men are creatures; angels are creatures that are above men. But Jesus is above the angels and is not classed with them (Hebrews chap. 1 - see especially vv 5,6,13). We have seen that He is not an angel nor an exalted man, but the Bible attributes to Him that which can only be said of God. We have learned that:

* Jesus is expressly stated to be God or to possess Deity.
* Jesus is called by names that may only be used for God.
* Jesus possesses characteristics that only God can possess.
* Jesus does work that only God can do.
* Jesus deserves worship and honor that only God deserves.

In all these areas Jesus is described as the Creator, not a created being. He is eternal, has the power, and did the work of creation. He deserves honor as the Creator. Clearly He is not to be classed with the created things but with Deity.

But we have also proved that there is only one true God who made the universe. If Jesus is "god," He is not an idol nor a false god. Since He possesses Deity and there is only one true God, then He must possess true Deity, not some lesser form of deity. He must be included in the one true God or Godhead along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Finally, if Jesus is God then He always has been God and always will be God, since God's unique nature cannot change (Hebrews 13:8). God cannot cease to be God nor can God lose the characteristics of God. He can take on non-Divine characteristics as Jesus added the characteristics of a man when He came to earth, and He can limit the use of His powers in order to accomplish His Divine purposes as Jesus did on earth. But He cannot cease to be God and He cannot lose the power and characteristics of God.

hope this helps !!!
 
@civic, the one true God that is the one Jesus worshipped which his Father in heaven. Named Yahavah. Jesus name is not Yahavah... Jesus is the Word of God which was part of God when God had spoke, he was not the very literal Yahavah...


So you are lying in my best estimation in order to not seek out to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

You realize how rude that is to do? Uncalled for even? You may be a very smart intelligent man, and know the scriptures well, but you still have a problem figuring out who the true God is, if you are gonna tell me to not listen to what Jesus says....

You got some issues there.
 
@civic, the one true God that is the one Jesus worshipped which his Father in heaven. Named Yahavah. Jesus name is not Yahavah... Jesus is the Word of God which was part of God when God had spoke, he was not the very literal Yahavah...


So you are lying in my best estimation in order to not seek out to worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

You realize how rude that is to do? Uncalled for even? You may be a very smart intelligent man, and know the scriptures well, but you still have a problem figuring out who the true God is, if you are gonna tell me to not listen to what Jesus says....

You got some issues there.
He who has seen Me has seen the Father. I and the Father are ONE.

The Lord your God is One- the Shema.

next
 
He who has seen Me has seen the Father. I and the Father are ONE.

The Lord your God is One- the Shema.

next

Those verses, do not make Jesus - Yahavah... All that trinity stuff is rhetoric and you do not have anything else to say. You did not even answer any of my questions posed. You just share your stuff, like it's God.

YOU BASICALLY TOLD ME NOT TO LISTEN TO WHAT JESUS SAYS... about worshipping his Father in spirit and in truth.
 
The trinity thing has a lot of people warped in their minds concering Yahavah, Yahavahs Word, and Yahavahs Spirit, or you could say God, Gods Word, and Gods Holy Spirit.
 
Matthew I have literally heard every objection to the Deity of Christ by every non trinitarians argument. I have been doing this for over 4 decades and know them like the back of my hand. I don't need to search for answers or use google. I know them by heart. They are ingrained in my mind, heart and soul. You can argue against Jesus all day long not being God but I will come back with scripture to counter you every objection. But if you want to continue this I can do this literally 24/7. This is by far my favorite topic in all of the bible and the one I'm most passionate about. That why I said I would bet my salvation on it and the salvation of all my family and loved ones. Thats how much assurance I have about the the true identity of Christ. God/YHWH forever in the flesh.

hope this helps !!!
 
Those verses, do not make Jesus - Yahavah... All that trinity stuff is rhetoric and you do not have anything else to say. You did not even answer any of my questions posed. You just share your stuff, like it's God.

YOU BASICALLY TOLD ME NOT TO LISTEN TO WHAT JESUS SAYS... about worshipping his Father in spirit and in truth.
sure they do otherwise Jesus is a blasphemer and deserving of being stoned.

Oh and BTW that is exactly what they tried to do on many occasions when He claimed to be God- they picked up stones to kill Him for blasphemy- you being a man make yourself out to be God/YHWH.

Why are you denying the biblical narrative in the gospels about Jesus and His claims ?


hope this helps !!
 
Matthew I have literally heard every objection to the Deity of Christ by every non trinitarians argument.
I don’t care.
I have been doing this for over 4 decades and know them like the back of my hand.
I’m not trying to debate you. I’m just telling you, to tell me not to listen to what Jesus said, about worship his Father in spirit and in truth….

Then act like those things done matter are very telling in your behavior.
I don't need to search for answers or use google.
I use the same Bible.
I know them by heart.
And why is that suppose to matter?
They are ingrained in my mind, heart and soul. You can argue against Jesus all day long not being God but I will come back with scripture to counter you every objection.
Jesus is the Word of God, not God himself. So your still wrong… people forget to add “Word of” in there.
But if you want to continue this I can do this literally 24/7.
You could just stop posting and no longer join in the discussion because the reality is that the trinity doesn’t save anyone. The Good News, is the power of Yahavah to salvation… not believing in the manmade tradition know as the trinity.
This is by far my favorite topic in all of the bible and the one I'm most passionate about.
Well you don’t need to kiss my lips on it. Because I believe I know God as well, and have fellowship with the Father and the Son… it doesn’t make me any more special than anyone else though. Everyone has different measure of faith towards Yahavah.
That why I said I would bet my salvation on it and the salvation of all my family and loved ones.
That really just weird to put out like that in the first place if you ask me… because Salvation is not founded in believing the trinity. Salvation is founded in the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Yeshua, whom Yahavah rose him up from the dead.
Thats how much assurance I have about the the true identity of Christ. God/YHWH forever in the flesh.
It will be just us disagreeing constantly who gives a flip about that. I care about truth, and I’m desiring to continue seek out the Father in spirit and truth just as the Lord Yeshua has foretold it would be able to be done, having access to the one whom adopts us.


It’s by faith we even believe God exists when you think about it…
hope this helps !!!
 
I don’t care.

I’m not trying to debate you. I’m just telling you, to tell me not to listen to what Jesus said, about worship his Father in spirit and in truth….

Then act like those things done matter are very telling in your behavior.

I use the same Bible.

And why is that suppose to matter?

Jesus is the Word of God, not God himself. So your still wrong… people forget to add “Word of” in there.

You could just stop posting and no longer join in the discussion because the reality is that the trinity doesn’t save anyone. The Good News, is the power of Yahavah to salvation… not believing in the manmade tradition know as the trinity.

Well you don’t need to kiss my lips on it. Because I believe I know God as well, and have fellowship with the Father and the Son… it doesn’t make me any more special than anyone else though. Everyone has different measure of faith towards Yahavah.

That really just weird to put out like that in the first place if you ask me… because Salvation is not founded in believing the trinity. Salvation is founded in the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Yeshua, whom Yahavah rose him up from the dead.

It will be just us disagreeing constantly who gives a flip about that. I care about truth, and I’m desiring to continue seek out the Father in spirit and truth just as the Lord Yeshua has foretold it would be able to be done, having access to the one whom adopts us.


It’s by faith we even believe God exists when you think about it…
I never said not to worship the Father- I'm saying Jesus claimed equality with the Father which is straight out of the bible and you do not affirm Jesus claims or the Apostles about His identity as the True God. 1 John 5:20.
 
sure they do otherwise Jesus is a blasphemer and deserving of being stoned.
Just because you say so. Doesn’t make it any more true. Are you the scripture authoritative?
Oh and BTW that is exactly what they tried to do on many occasions when He claimed to be God-
If Jesus is God, God died on the cross.
I never said not to worship the Father- I'm saying Jesus claimed equality with the Father which is straight out of the bible and you do not affirm Jesus claims or the Apostles about His identity as the True God. 1 John 5:20.

Jesus is never made equal to the Father though…

You still have yet to answer why, when Jesus hands everything over to the Father, Jesus is subjected to Him, who handed everything to him first.
 
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