Defective Christology

[civic]

Defective Christology. Most Christian-based religions distort Christ by compromising His deity . . . . Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Jesus was a created being the archangel Michael prior to His human birth . . . . Mormons deny the virgin birth; Jehovahs Witnesses and Armstrongs Worldwide Church of God, the bodily resurrection


Defective Christology. Those who believe in an unbiblical Jesus will usually deny the true Deity of Christ, or the true humanity of Jesus. Some, such as Mormons, deny the virgin birth. They say that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary. I John 4:1-3 gives a scriptural litmus test for false teachers.

Among the most common feature of these religions is a defective view of Christ. Defective views of Christ are not new, they go back to the early days of the church. One of the apostle Paul's principal reasons for writing his letter to the Colossian Church was to combat an heretical view of Christ that was being taught there. During the second century the church had to battle against the heresy of Gnosticism, which denied the true humanity of Christ. In the fourth century the church battled against the Arian heresy which denied the true deity of Christ.

Most modern day non Christian religious systems follow in the footsteps of their predecessors. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses are simply a modern version of the Arian heresy in the early church. Like the Arians of the fourth century, the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the Son is co-eternal with the Father. Like the Arians, the Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Son as being created by the Father. Christian Science is another religion which has a defective view of Jesus Christ. They do not believe in the existence of matter - to them the material world is an illusion. So according to their teaching Jesus Christ did not have a real body. In this they repeat the same heresy of the Gnostics, who denied the real humanity of Christ. The Mormons also have a very defective view of Christ in that, they regard Jesus Christ the first-born among the spirit children of God. They do not believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Rather they regard Him as the offspring of a mortal mother and an immortal father.


A Defective Christology

"Who is Jesus Christ?" This is the most important question a person can ever ask. Our deepest joys on earth and hope of eternal life rest upon our answer to that question. Because this is so, the primary activity of Satan must surely be to obscure as much as possible the true nature and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Satan knows that an improper or incomplete understanding of the person and work of Christ makes salvation impossible.

Early heresies such as Cerinthianism denied the humanity of Christ (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:1-3). Arianism denied the deity of Christ (John 1:1, 8:58). Others denied the union of his two natures in one person. Gnosticism taught that there were many spiritual levels and mediators between earth and heaven of which Jesus was merely one (Colossians 1:16, 2:3-23). Most non Christian religious systems today follow in one of these errors. The most insidious types which insist on extra-biblical revelations and esoteric and mystical experiences of God are simply the children of the Gnostics.

The central doctrine of Christianity is Christology, the doctrine of the nature of the person of Jesus Christ as revealed in space-time history. Any teaching that compromises the humanity or deity of Christ and His uniqueness as the only God-man, destroys the efficacy of the atonement, the work of Christ on the cross, and thereby the basis of the gospel.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No once comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6). If Jesus was not fully God and fully human, he had no authority to say so. John 1:14 tells us that Jesus was "full of truth." In John 1:18 we are told that no one has ever seen God, but the unique Son "has made Him known." Anything after the words of Jesus Christ would be anticlimactical, a descent from the mountain top of revelation. Jesus was the only one qualified to reveal to humanity the truth about God. Jesus perfectly fulfilled that mission (John 17:6-8,14).

In the closing days of the earthly ministry of Christ, he took the Apostles aside to prepare them for His departure. The narrative in John 14:7-10 is very instructive in helping us to discern the error many cults make with regard to the sufficiency of Christ's revelation of God. To comfort His disciples Jesus reminds them that through Him, they now knew the Father and had seen Him. But Philip was not satisfied. He begs for one glimpse of the Father (John 14:8) believing this would suffice. He may have felt that they had not quite got as close as Moses who got to see the back of Almighty God. If only he could have a similar experience. But notice that Jesus was clearly distressed by Philip's request.

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:9)

Philip's search for something more, a deeper revelation of God than Jesus had given was an insult to Jesus, and received a rebuke. How could a vision of God be more thrilling than to talk with God's Son? In the words of Jesus Christ we have the full revelation of the Father's will. Everything Jesus had learned from the Father, He had made known to them, and through them to us (John 15:15, 16:12-15). To believe that the revelation of Christ in Scripture is insufficient is to hold a defective Christology.

It cannot be overstated that biblical doctrine, that is, what we understand about the way God has revealed Himself in history and supremely in Jesus Christ is of vital importance in perpetuating orthodox Christianity and withstanding heresy. @Rockson @synergy @Fred

hope this helps !!!

 

[Fred]

Any teaching that compromises the humanity or deity of Christ and His uniqueness as the only God-man, destroys the efficacy of the atonement, the work of Christ on the cross, and thereby the basis of the gospel.

Yes, it is destructive the very gospel itself - it is a false gospel that seeks to overthrow the true gospel.

 

[civic]

Yes, it is destructive the very gospel itself - it is a false gospel that seeks to overthrow the true gospel.

As Paul said in Galatians 1 its another jesus and another gospel.

 

[Lily]

Just stick with what's in the Bible, It's all about Jesus.

 

[civic]

Just stick with what's in the Bible, It's all about Jesus.

Who is God. John 1:1, 8:58, 10:30, 20:28. Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, 1 John 5:20, Hebrews 1:8-10. And many other places.

 

[synergy]

Defective Christology. Most Christian-based religions distort Christ by compromising His deity . . . . Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Jesus was a created being the archangel Michael prior to His human birth . . . . Mormons deny the virgin birth; Jehovahs Witnesses and Armstrongs Worldwide Church of God, the bodily resurrection


Defective Christology. Those who believe in an unbiblical Jesus will usually deny the true Deity of Christ, or the true humanity of Jesus. Some, such as Mormons, deny the virgin birth. They say that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary. I John 4:1-3 gives a scriptural litmus test for false teachers.

Among the most common feature of these religions is a defective view of Christ. Defective views of Christ are not new, they go back to the early days of the church. One of the apostle Paul's principal reasons for writing his letter to the Colossian Church was to combat an heretical view of Christ that was being taught there. During the second century the church had to battle against the heresy of Gnosticism, which denied the true humanity of Christ. In the fourth century the church battled against the Arian heresy which denied the true deity of Christ.

Most modern day non Christian religious systems follow in the footsteps of their predecessors. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses are simply a modern version of the Arian heresy in the early church. Like the Arians of the fourth century, the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the Son is co-eternal with the Father. Like the Arians, the Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Son as being created by the Father. Christian Science is another religion which has a defective view of Jesus Christ. They do not believe in the existence of matter - to them the material world is an illusion. So according to their teaching Jesus Christ did not have a real body. In this they repeat the same heresy of the Gnostics, who denied the real humanity of Christ. The Mormons also have a very defective view of Christ in that, they regard Jesus Christ the first-born among the spirit children of God. They do not believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Rather they regard Him as the offspring of a mortal mother and an immortal father.


A Defective Christology

"Who is Jesus Christ?" This is the most important question a person can ever ask. Our deepest joys on earth and hope of eternal life rest upon our answer to that question. Because this is so, the primary activity of Satan must surely be to obscure as much as possible the true nature and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Satan knows that an improper or incomplete understanding of the person and work of Christ makes salvation impossible.

Early heresies such as Cerinthianism denied the humanity of Christ (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:1-3). Arianism denied the deity of Christ (John 1:1, 8:58). Others denied the union of his two natures in one person. Gnosticism taught that there were many spiritual levels and mediators between earth and heaven of which Jesus was merely one (Colossians 1:16, 2:3-23). Most non Christian religious systems today follow in one of these errors. The most insidious types which insist on extra-biblical revelations and esoteric and mystical experiences of God are simply the children of the Gnostics.

The central doctrine of Christianity is Christology, the doctrine of the nature of the person of Jesus Christ as revealed in space-time history. Any teaching that compromises the humanity or deity of Christ and His uniqueness as the only God-man, destroys the efficacy of the atonement, the work of Christ on the cross, and thereby the basis of the gospel.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No once comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6). If Jesus was not fully God and fully human, he had no authority to say so. John 1:14 tells us that Jesus was "full of truth." In John 1:18 we are told that no one has ever seen God, but the unique Son "has made Him known." Anything after the words of Jesus Christ would be anticlimactical, a descent from the mountain top of revelation. Jesus was the only one qualified to reveal to humanity the truth about God. Jesus perfectly fulfilled that mission (John 17:6-8,14).

In the closing days of the earthly ministry of Christ, he took the Apostles aside to prepare them for His departure. The narrative in John 14:7-10 is very instructive in helping us to discern the error many cults make with regard to the sufficiency of Christ's revelation of God. To comfort His disciples Jesus reminds them that through Him, they now knew the Father and had seen Him. But Philip was not satisfied. He begs for one glimpse of the Father (John 14:8) believing this would suffice. He may have felt that they had not quite got as close as Moses who got to see the back of Almighty God. If only he could have a similar experience. But notice that Jesus was clearly distressed by Philip's request.

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:9)

Philip's search for something more, a deeper revelation of God than Jesus had given was an insult to Jesus, and received a rebuke. How could a vision of God be more thrilling than to talk with God's Son? In the words of Jesus Christ we have the full revelation of the Father's will. Everything Jesus had learned from the Father, He had made known to them, and through them to us (John 15:15, 16:12-15). To believe that the revelation of Christ in Scripture is insufficient is to hold a defective Christology.

It cannot be overstated that biblical doctrine, that is, what we understand about the way God has revealed Himself in history and supremely in Jesus Christ is of vital importance in perpetuating orthodox Christianity and withstanding heresy. @Rockson @synergy @Fred

hope this helps !!!

The Unitarians have a severely mistaken view of Jesus. It is so mistaken that their view of Jesus is strikingly similar to the view that Muslims have of Jesus. The similarities are endless, from their view that Jesus, as a human person, received a word from God, to being just prophets with no Divinity. The only major difference between the Unitarian Jesus and the Muslim Jesus is that the Unitarian Jesus underwent the Cross whereas the Muslim Jesus didn't. But just like Unitarians dismiss the fact that Jesus does not have to be God to save us, likewise the Muslims dismiss the Cross the same way. It's a slippery and disastrous slope that Unitarians are in. Muslims are no better either.

 

[Lily]

Just stick with what's in the Bible, It's all about Jesus.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is really and truly God, the second person of the Trinity. And it teaches that amazing fact over and over again, in a vast number of ways. People sometimes think that the doctrine of the deity of Christ, that Jesus is God, is based on only a few passages that are controversial. But see that this doctrine is found over and over again in Scripture. It is pervasive. It is found on nearly every page of the New Testament in one way or other.

Just imagine: Jesus grows up as a carpenter in Galilee. Then, when he is thirty or so years old, he begins to teach as a Jewish rabbi. His disciples are all Jews, and they have been taught from childhood that there is only one God and they should worship God alone. They should never worship idols, certainly never worship a mere man. Somehow, during the next three years or so, all these Jewish disciples, and many more people besides, are convinced that Jesus is God and deserves to be worshiped as God. They have known him intimately as a man, have walked and talked and eaten with him; yet, they have come to worship him. That is quite an amazing thing.

 

[civic]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is really and truly God, the second person of the Trinity. And it teaches that amazing fact over and over again, in a vast number of ways. People sometimes think that the doctrine of the deity of Christ, that Jesus is God, is based on only a few passages that are controversial. But see that this doctrine is found over and over again in Scripture. It is pervasive. It is found on nearly every page of the New Testament in one way or other.

Just imagine: Jesus grows up as a carpenter in Galilee. Then, when he is thirty or so years old, he begins to teach as a Jewish rabbi. His disciples are all Jews, and they have been taught from childhood that there is only one God and they should worship God alone. They should never worship idols, certainly never worship a mere man. Somehow, during the next three years or so, all these Jewish disciples, and many more people besides, are convinced that Jesus is God and deserves to be worshiped as God. They have known him intimately as a man, have walked and talked and eaten with him; yet, they have come to worship him. That is quite an amazing thing.

Amen

 

[Persevering]

The strongest evidence for the deity of Christ is this: Christ is the Lord. The Bible’s main teaching about God is that God is Lord. Lord is the covenant name of God. It tells us that God is in control of all things, that he speaks with absolute authority, and that he takes us in love to be his people.

Now, we know that Lord is also the name of Jesus Christ. Perhaps the most fundamental confession of the New Testament is “Jesus is Lord.” Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

First Corinthians 12:3 says, “No one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says ‘Jesus is accursed!’ and no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit.”

In Philippians 2:10–11 Paul alludes to Isaiah 45:23, which speaks of every knee bowing to God as Lord, and he paraphrases it this way: “so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

 

[civic]

The strongest evidence for the deity of Christ is this: Christ is the Lord. The Bible’s main teaching about God is that God is Lord. Lord is the covenant name of God. It tells us that God is in control of all things, that he speaks with absolute authority, and that he takes us in love to be his people.

Now, we know that Lord is also the name of Jesus Christ. Perhaps the most fundamental confession of the New Testament is “Jesus is Lord.” Romans 10:9 says, “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

First Corinthians 12:3 says, “No one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says ‘Jesus is accursed!’ and no one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except in the Holy Spirit.”

In Philippians 2:10–11 Paul alludes to Isaiah 45:23, which speaks of every knee bowing to God as Lord, and he paraphrases it this way: “so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

Spot on Jesus is YHWH, Lord. Kurios in the LXX is YHWH in Hebrew. One in the same God, one in the same Lord.

 

[Kokomo]

Defective Christology. Most Christian-based religions distort Christ by compromising His deity . . . . Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Jesus was a created being the archangel Michael prior to His human birth . . . . Mormons deny the virgin birth; Jehovahs Witnesses and Armstrongs Worldwide Church of God, the bodily resurrection

The Old Testament teaches that the coming of the Messiah would also be the coming of God himself.

In Psalm 110:1–2
The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
The LORD sends forth from Zion
your mighty scepter.
Rule in the midst of your enemies!

In Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So, the title Christ also identifies Jesus as God.

 

[civic]

The Old Testament teaches that the coming of the Messiah would also be the coming of God himself.

In Psalm 110:1–2
The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”
The LORD sends forth from Zion
your mighty scepter.
Rule in the midst of your enemies!

In Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So, the title Christ also identifies Jesus as God.

Amen

Lev 28:12
I will walk among you and be your God, and you will be my people.

 

[101G]

"Who is Jesus Christ?"

God in flesh "EQUALLY SHARED" ..... HIS , "OWN", ARM ...... in Flesh. meaning he's the exact person who is God in flesh, per. Hebrews 1:3. and nature wise, per Phil 2:6

101G.

 

[Rockson]

Defective Christology. Most Christian-based religions distort Christ by compromising His deity . . . . Jehovahs Witnesses teach that Jesus was a created being the archangel Michael prior to His human birth . . . . Mormons deny the virgin birth; Jehovahs Witnesses and Armstrongs Worldwide Church of God, the bodily resurrection


Defective Christology. Those who believe in an unbiblical Jesus will usually deny the true Deity of Christ, or the true humanity of Jesus. Some, such as Mormons, deny the virgin birth. They say that God the Father had sexual relations with Mary. I John 4:1-3 gives a scriptural litmus test for false teachers.

Among the most common feature of these religions is a defective view of Christ. Defective views of Christ are not new, they go back to the early days of the church. One of the apostle Paul's principal reasons for writing his letter to the Colossian Church was to combat an heretical view of Christ that was being taught there. During the second century the church had to battle against the heresy of Gnosticism, which denied the true humanity of Christ. In the fourth century the church battled against the Arian heresy which denied the true deity of Christ.

Most modern day non Christian religious systems follow in the footsteps of their predecessors. For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses are simply a modern version of the Arian heresy in the early church. Like the Arians of the fourth century, the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that the Son is co-eternal with the Father. Like the Arians, the Jehovah's Witnesses regard the Son as being created by the Father. Christian Science is another religion which has a defective view of Jesus Christ. They do not believe in the existence of matter - to them the material world is an illusion. So according to their teaching Jesus Christ did not have a real body. In this they repeat the same heresy of the Gnostics, who denied the real humanity of Christ. The Mormons also have a very defective view of Christ in that, they regard Jesus Christ the first-born among the spirit children of God. They do not believe that Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Rather they regard Him as the offspring of a mortal mother and an immortal father.


A Defective Christology

"Who is Jesus Christ?" This is the most important question a person can ever ask. Our deepest joys on earth and hope of eternal life rest upon our answer to that question. Because this is so, the primary activity of Satan must surely be to obscure as much as possible the true nature and work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Satan knows that an improper or incomplete understanding of the person and work of Christ makes salvation impossible.

Early heresies such as Cerinthianism denied the humanity of Christ (John 1:14; 1 John 1:1-3; 4:1-3). Arianism denied the deity of Christ (John 1:1, 8:58). Others denied the union of his two natures in one person. Gnosticism taught that there were many spiritual levels and mediators between earth and heaven of which Jesus was merely one (Colossians 1:16, 2:3-23). Most non Christian religious systems today follow in one of these errors. The most insidious types which insist on extra-biblical revelations and esoteric and mystical experiences of God are simply the children of the Gnostics.

The central doctrine of Christianity is Christology, the doctrine of the nature of the person of Jesus Christ as revealed in space-time history. Any teaching that compromises the humanity or deity of Christ and His uniqueness as the only God-man, destroys the efficacy of the atonement, the work of Christ on the cross, and thereby the basis of the gospel.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No once comes to the Father but by me." (John 14:6). If Jesus was not fully God and fully human, he had no authority to say so. John 1:14 tells us that Jesus was "full of truth." In John 1:18 we are told that no one has ever seen God, but the unique Son "has made Him known." Anything after the words of Jesus Christ would be anticlimactical, a descent from the mountain top of revelation. Jesus was the only one qualified to reveal to humanity the truth about God. Jesus perfectly fulfilled that mission (John 17:6-8,14).

In the closing days of the earthly ministry of Christ, he took the Apostles aside to prepare them for His departure. The narrative in John 14:7-10 is very instructive in helping us to discern the error many cults make with regard to the sufficiency of Christ's revelation of God. To comfort His disciples Jesus reminds them that through Him, they now knew the Father and had seen Him. But Philip was not satisfied. He begs for one glimpse of the Father (John 14:8) believing this would suffice. He may have felt that they had not quite got as close as Moses who got to see the back of Almighty God. If only he could have a similar experience. But notice that Jesus was clearly distressed by Philip's request.

"Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:9)

Philip's search for something more, a deeper revelation of God than Jesus had given was an insult to Jesus, and received a rebuke. How could a vision of God be more thrilling than to talk with God's Son? In the words of Jesus Christ we have the full revelation of the Father's will. Everything Jesus had learned from the Father, He had made known to them, and through them to us (John 15:15, 16:12-15). To believe that the revelation of Christ in Scripture is insufficient is to hold a defective Christology.

It cannot be overstated that biblical doctrine, that is, what we understand about the way God has revealed Himself in history and supremely in Jesus Christ is of vital importance in perpetuating orthodox Christianity and withstanding heresy. @Rockson @synergy @Fred

hope this helps !!!

Very informative post!

 

[Rockson]

I'd like to share another way of looking at this verse,

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."Matt 24: 4.5

Years ago I used to think Jesus meant here people would come on the scene and say I am Jesus Christ. I won't say there hasn't people who have tried to say that. Could be that's what Jesus meant. Also some good points in this thread show different ways people teach about Jesus create we'd say a different type of Jesus. Valid points.

Here's maybe another way of looking at this verse too. What does the name Christ mean....it means the Messiah but also the anointed, empowered one. It means one who is the mouthpiece of God who is never mistaken. We have lots of people in all ages saying God told me this or God told me that. I don't mind that to a point and degree and I suggest that at times as well....sometimes.....but I always usually add I believe God told me something but I could be mistaken. Main thing is check it out with the WORD the Bible. If you don't see it there be like the noble Bereans and test it out.

When people say I had a dream....a vision.....and I know what God said.....well how can you deal with that? How can you argue against it and test it? Fact is you can't. The person won't allow you and won't encourage you to do so. Remember....GOD TOLD THEM! This is the problem with the cults.....Jim Jones and many others.....their followers have no mechanism whereby to rightly rise up against anything they say. Why? Because God told the other what they said and who am I to question?

Now one says I'm glad I'm not one who follows a cult leader and are led away by false Christs! Well consider.....maybe you can be. Perhaps you are? It's not necessarily that people are saying I'm Jesus Christ! If they are however saying the words I'm speaking is the mouthpiece of God then really they're doing the same things. They're saying, I Am Christ. I'm right because God told me I'm right.

Catholicism does this. No a Pope doesn't say I AM CHRIST, but when one says what I say is God authoritative and it can't be questioned.....That person has said I am Christ. But let' not pick on the Catholics. Other denominations, and evangelicals we can be surprised to see can do the same thing. If leaders of those movements come anywhere close to saying I prayed about it and God told me A, B or C and too bad you're wrong to question me......they likewise in a sense are saying.....I am Christ. My words are authoritative! I cannot be questioned. I am the mouthpiece of God.

So....we want to be careful not to allow ANYBODY to do that to our minds. If you hear someone use that approach let a yellow light of caution start flashing in your spirit.....and don't be quick to believe or accept anything they say just because they say it. Just remember.....if they're claiming they're absolutely authoritative I can almost guarantee you they've crossed the line. They are not one of the original Apostles and don't let them make you think they are!

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. Acts 17:11

 

[Brakelite]

I'd like to know what you mean by Jesus being eternal like the Father. And why does being eternal necessarily validate His divinity? Somehow we need to seriously consider the fact of Sonship. Are sons the same age as their fathers? Could there be another explanation in order to harmonize the many scriptures affirming Jesus as the only begotten Son of God, without doing damage to His divinity? And I don't minimise His divinity by saying angels are divine. I'm talking Godhead.
In Daniel 2 we read of the conclusion of the earth's probation. After all the rise and fall of empires as depicted in the statue, we see a rock cut out of a mountain and striking the earth and destroying it, and all its kingdoms, turning them to dust, then in their place establishing an eternal kingdom and government that will never be destroyed or voted out. Of course, the Rock part is a metaphor, as is the mountain. The mountain I see is the government, the kingdom, the reality and personality of the Father. That includes His laws, His character, His very divine and righteous perfect nature... The very substance of everything He is. The Rock is Christ. The Rock is comprised of the very same substance. The same character. The same essential nature, because it was cut out from that mountain... God in the form of the Son... God begotten. However, although the nature and substance and character is the Father's, and therefore eternal, the Son, at some "time" in eternity, was. 'cut out'... Begotten... And therefore in personality had a beginning.
But as a Sin, everything He has, and everything He is, came from the Father. Even the life Jesus has was inherited... But it is the life of the Father, the very same identical self existent life of the Father. This, His very Sonship, is all the evidence we need of His deity and divinity. None of the above however means He was a created being. He was begotten. Jesus Himself said,
KJV John 8:42
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Note the different nuances both in English and in the Greek of the phrases proceeded forth, and came from.

 

[Diserner]

I'd like to know what you mean by Jesus being eternal like the Father.

A lot of ECFs struggled with this, and of course even today.

The problem is we do see some kind of logical dependency of the Son's existence.

Where this causes the human mind to struggle is its limitations in thinking about time—we don't readily conceive God's timelessness.

If God is outside of time, then logical dependencies or orders are not temporal—they don't have a before time and an after time.

The way some have attempted to describe this is like a continual eternal emerging present tense, to help us understand timelesness.

God is certainly outside of time—so if he has a Son, that will be outside of time too.

 

[Brakelite]

Further to the above.
Some say the Son was begotten at the incarnation, but I
see two major problems with this.
One, your hope is in a human sacrifice if it was but the death of a man. Two, you are denying the Father actually sent a Son. You are saying the Father sent someone who became a son? And this 'someone' was still connected to the trinitarian God? The divine part of Jesus was still in heaven while the human part was on earth? If that's the case, then there was no real sacrifice was there. Both knew that all would be well... Neither Father nor Son were giving up anything... And there was no real death or separation, thus no propitiation or Atonement.
have no issue with 3 persons in the Godhead. I do have an issue with the assumptions made by theologians in their efforts to describe the Godhead, particularly in the coequal (denying the Sonship of Christ and His submission to the Father's authority) and the co-eternal nature of each (again denying the Sonship as of Father and Son can be the same age) and also the indivisibility of the Trinity which denies the death of the Son.

In an article by a Rev Spear over 100 years ago, is articulated a brilliant unbiased biblical view of the Godhead...
The Bible, while not giving a metaphysical definition of the spiritual unity of God, teaches His essential oneness in opposition to all forms of polytheism, and also assumes man’s capacity to apprehend the idea sufficiently for all the purposes of worship and obedience. John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6. The same Bible as clearly teaches that the adorable Person therein known as Jesus Christ, when considered in his whole nature, is truly divine and truly God in the most absolute sense. John 1:1-18; 1 John 5:20; Rom. 1:3, 4; 9:5; Titus 2:13.” (Rev. Samuel T. Spear D. D., New York Independent, ‘The Subordination of Christ’,)
Spear quite rightly said that the Scriptures do not contain a “metaphysical definition of the spiritual unity of God."
Spear later says (referring to the fact that the Bible speaks in terms of three persons of the Godhead but does not explain the oneness between them as in the trinity doctrine) “Bible trinitarians are not tritheists. They simply seek to state, in the best way in which they can, what they regard the Bible as teaching.” (Ibid)
The terminology “Bible trinitarians” (those who believe in the Biblical three persons of the Godhead but not in the creeds as defined by the church, those we would say today being 'non-trinitarians') stands in contrast to those who believe the trinity doctrine to be true (the trinitarians). In other words, just because someone (like a non-trinitarian) refuses to explain (or refuses to accept an explanation of) how the three personalities of the Godhead have their existence together, this does not mean they are tritheists (believers in three Gods). It is just that they are refusing to go beyond what God has revealed. They are simply staying with only what God has revealed in His word. In his article, Spear also made the two following statements – which as I am sure you will agree is very good counsel.
“It is enough to take the Bible just as it reads, to believe what it says, and stop where it stops.” ....“All the statements of the Bible must be accepted as true, with whatever qualifications they mutually impose on one another. The whole truth lies in them all when taken collectively.” (Ibid)
Spear concluded his article – which was so brilliantly written
“The simple-minded Christian, when thinking of these wants, and contemplating the divine Trinity, as he finds it in the Bible, has no difficulty with the doctrine. It is a light to his thoughts, and a gracious power in his experience. Content with the revealed facts, and spiritually using them, he has no trouble with them. He does not attempt metaphysically to analyze the God he worships, but rather thinks of him as revealed in His word, and can always join in the following Doxology:
“Praise God, from whom all blessings flow! Praise Him, all creatures here below! Praise Him above, ye heavenly host! Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!”
It is only when men speculate outside of the Bible and beyond it, and seek to be wiser than they can be, that difficulties arise; and then they do arise as the rebuke of their own folly. A glorious doctrine then becomes their perplexity, and engulfs them in a confusion of their own creation. What they need is to believe more and speculate less.” (Ibid)
At the very best, the trinity doctrine (any version of it) can only be termed an assumed doctrine. It is a speculative teaching that cannot be proven from Scripture. It is speculative because it attempts to explain things which God has not revealed – meaning how He has His existence in the three persons of the Godhead. This is why as far as our salvation is concerned, it is not necessary to believe it. God has not revealed these things so it should not concern us. Certainly we should not have formulated a doctrine to explain it. Once this fact is grasped it makes a study of the Godhead much more of a blessing.

 

[civic]

A lot of ECFs struggled with this, and of course even today.

The problem is we do see some kind of logical dependency of the Son's existence.

Where this causes the human mind to struggle is its limitations in thinking about time—we don't readily conceive God's timelessness.

If God is outside of time, then logical dependencies or orders are not temporal—they don't have a before time and an after time.

The way some have attempted to describe this is like a continual eternal emerging present tense, to help us understand timelesness.

God is certainly outside of time—so if he has a Son, that will be outside of time too.

The Father/ Son is relational not one of prior existence of the Father before the Son.

 

[Diserner]

Just remember.....if they're claiming they're absolutely authoritative I can almost guarantee you they've crossed the line.

I appreciate the caution you're communicating here, and I agree the majority of "God told mes" are mistaken, but I would not go overboard with it.

If I say God literally told me that the Bible is true and I'm not the Messiah, that doesn't make me some cultish antichrist deceiver.

God does talk in Scripture and there's not a legitimate verse that says he just completely stopped anywhere, it's a spirit of fear or unbelief.

We just need to urge extreme caution, that's all.