Data on John 1:1

[TomL]

Excellent piece of work here brother.

J.

Thank you, but I cannot take credit for it.

Greek grammarians did the heavy lifting.

 

[Johann]

Thank you, but I cannot take credit for it.

Greek grammarians did the heavy lifting.

Same here.

J.

 

[TomL]

Same here.

J.

We are indebted.

 

[Johann]

We are indebted.

This information is accessible to everyone, inviting us all to be like the Bereans. Yet, it seems the vast majority are reluctant to follow their example.

J.

 

[TomL]

This information is accessible to everyone, inviting us all to be like the Bereans. Yet, it seems the vast majority are reluctant to follow their example.

J.

Some may not want to test their doctrine against the evidence

 

[101G]

Grammar: The preposition πρὸς (pros) here signifies more than mere proximity; it implies a personal, face-to-face relationship, often translated as "toward" or "in relation to." The use of pros alongside the accusative case (τὸν Θεόν) reveals that the Word (Logos) and God (Theon) are in a relationship, each as a distinct entity. This relationship implies the coexistence of two persons within the Godhead—distinct yet unified in purpose and essence.

Clause 3: καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος (kai Theos ēn ho Logos)
Translation: "And the Word was God."

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, not saying that you're right or wrong here, but consider this. instead of a Face to Face, consider the Equal Share of oneself in Ordinal designation in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. which is the H259 ECHAD/(one), just as Genesis 1:1 and Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states.

and this Equal share of the ECHAD is clearly expressed in Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" and "WITH" indicate the same one person just First and Last, alpha and omega, beginning and end, and root and offspring.

consider it please. thanks in advance.

101G

 

[civic]

All men are born with a sin nature, but not Christians.

Romans 5:12,14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

this is completely false since there is no sin nature, no original sin.

the doctrine came from Augustine via the gnostics, pagans, greeks.

 

[Peterlag]

this is completely false since there is no sin nature, no original sin.

the doctrine came from Augustine via the gnostics, pagans, greeks.

Now we have some common ground. I believe in a sin nature, but not the one the Catholics teach. I write it this way in my book...

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

 

[Johann]

Now we have some common ground. I believe in a sin nature, but not the one the Catholics teach. I write it this way in my book...

I believe God gave us a new nature when we are born again and that this is what the apostle Paul taught. Then where did this idea come from that we are still sinners by nature, and that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual, but still alive to sin whereby we must with much effort, frustration, and failure be in a battle with our sin nature the rest of our lives? Who taught us that it's not the spirit that has become our new nature, but that after we received Christ within, we still have the old sin nature left as we live the rest of our lives trying to restrain it? If the apostle Paul taught that we do experience a death to our old sin nature once we are baptized into Christ, and that it’s dead and gone and therefore we are dead to sin? Then where did this idea come from that we are still alive to sin? Could it have come from these guys...

The concept of the original sin was first alluded to in the second century by Irenaeus, (Bishop of Lyon) who was working for the Catholics and not for the apostle Paul. Some two hundred years later another church father who went by the name of Augustine, (Bishop of Hippo) whose writings shaped and developed the doctrine of sin as he considered that humanity shared in Adam's sin. Augustine's formulation of the original sin after the year of 412 was popular among protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, who equated the original sin with a hurtful desire meaning that it persisted even after baptism and therefore completely destroyed the freedom to do good. At first Augustine, said that free will was weakened, but not destroyed by the original sin. But after the year of 412 this concept changed to a loss of free will except to sin, and it's this Augustine's concept that influenced the development of the western church and western philosophy and indirectly all of western Christianity.

What's your take on Romans 7?
Rom_5:12

5:12–21 Paul sets out to show how one man’s death can provide salvation for many. To prove his point, he uses Adam to establish the principle that it is possible for one man’s actions to inexorably affect many other people. - MSB

The passage Rom_5:12-21 is the backbone for teaching "original sin" since Augustine, 5th century. Such doctrine maintains that vs 12-21 is limited to physical death only.

Paul's main point is not about Adam, but Jesus, and what all is accomplished in his death. Paul's subject is still "Justification by Faith."

Therefore -- Paul is concluding that justification is by by the system of grace-faith only and give one last great proof.

just as through one man -- The "one man" is of course Adam, who along with Eve was responsible of introducing sin into the world (Gen_3:1-7).
Paul assumes that his readers know the tragic story of the fall of Adam and Eve.

sin entered the world, -- The word for “sin” is ἁμαρτία (hamartia), which in this case refers not to a specific act but to the principle of disobeying God's command.

“The world” (as in Joh_3:16) is the world of mankind, the sphere of human beings; sin had already entered the world of angels through the sin of Satan (1Jn_3:8). - CPNIV

The significance that Paul ascribes to this act, and the parallel that he draws between Adam’s sin and Christ’s act of obedience on the cross, makes clear that Paul views Adam and his sin in the Garden of Eden as historical fact. - NLTSB

and death through sin, -- Death = separation. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body, Jas_2:26 ; and spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God, Isa_59:2.

death Refers to the loss of immortality, which includes physical and spiritual death (Gen_3:22-24)... his sin introduced mortality. This mortality, in Paul’s view, spread to the entire human race (see 1Co_15:21-22). According to Paul, death will be the final enemy defeated by God (1Co_15:26). - FSB

Death in these verses most likely denotes both physical death and spiritual death together (Paul often connects the two). - ESVSB

Death -- Does death in vs. 12 means "spiritual death"? (we know that physical death didn't end with Moses, see Rom_5:14; [However Paul's point is simply that there was a "law" then that existed before the "Law of Moses" for men were separated from God by their sins even before Moses' Law. 1Jn_3:8]

While Adam's sin separated him from God (Gen_3:8-10; Isa_59:2) the very day he sinned (Gen_2:15-16) and resulted in spiritual separation (spiritual death), it was Adam's exclusion from the Garden and his access to the "tree of life" that brought him and all mankind physical death (Gen_3:22-23), a consequence of his sin.

death -- The parallel between this verse and Rom_5:18 suggests that “death” refers mainly to spiritual death, or “condemnation”—although physical death, at least in its painful side, may be included as well. - NIVZSB

Death here may be taken in its full latitude, for temporal, spiritual, and eternal death. - Poole [1Co_15:22]

By “death” in Gen_2:17; Gen_3:19 physical death is meant, but in Rom_5:17, Rom_5:21 eternal death is Paul’s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul. - RWP

Death has 3 distinct manifestations: 1) spiritual death or separation from God (cf. Eph_1:1-2; Eph_4:18); 2) physical death (Heb_9:27); and 3) eternal death (also called the second death), which includes not only eternal separation from God, but eternal torment in the lake of fire (Rev_20:11-15). - MSB

death by sin -- In the case of Man. Scripture nowhere says that death in animals is due to human sin. - CBSC

and thus death [separation, wg] spread to all men, because all sinned -- Again asserting Paul's message from chapters 1 & 2 that all have sinned (Rom_3:10-12; Rom_3:23), and thus all men have become separated from God. Isa_59:2.

The word translated men is the Greek word anthrōpos, which in the plural can mean either “people” of both sexes or “men,” depending on the context. It is translated “men” here (and in Rom_5:18) to show the connection with “man” (anthrōpos, singular), referring to Christ. - ESVSB

Little children and infants die physically not because they are sinners, but because we are without access to "the tree of life" from which mankind was cut off because of Adam's sin. Gen_3:22-24. [Eze_18:20]

That infants and children are born "in sin" has been taught since the Reformation by Anabaptist writers and widely accepted within the Wesleyan tradition. However, there is no doctrine of "original sin" taught in 5:12-21. No child is actually conceived and born cursed with the "guilt" of Adam's sin. The only consequence of Adam's sin anyone suffers is that we will die physically, and will again have access to the "tree of life" in heaven. (Eze_18:20-21; Rev_2:7; Rev_22:14).

[Those holding to "original sin" would argue that since infants die, this is proof they are "sinners." See Barnes response in Rom_5:14.]

for that all sinned -- the aorist. St Paul refers to the First Sin, to the guilt of the Representative of the race. A close parallel, in contrast, is 2Co_5:15, where lit. “since One died for all, therefore they all died;” i.e. ideally, in their Divine Representative. See too 1Co_15:21, where our death in Adam is spoken of just as our sin in Adam here. - CBSC

Here we should have expected the apostle to finish his sentence, in some such way as this: "Even so, by one man righteousness has entered into the world, and life by righteousness." But, instead of this, we have a digression, extending to five verses, to illustrate the important statement of Rom_5:12; and it is only at Rom_5:18 that the comparison is resumed and finished. - JFB

Note The dash "— " at the end of Rom_5:12 in the NIV is to show a break in Paul's thought. In vs. 13-14 "He turns aside from his main argument to deal with a related matter." - NIVZSB

The Two Adams Contrasted [-Luscombe]
Rom_5:12-21
First Adam
Second Adam
Sin entered - 12
Salvation - 15
Death to all men - 12
Free gift - 15
Many died - 15
Grace for many - 15
Condemnation - 16
Justification - 16
Judgment - 18
Life - 18
Disobedience - 19
Obedience - 19
Law - 20
Grace - 20
Sin - death - 21
Righteousness - eternal life - 21
IS ADAM (MAN)
IS CHRIST

And the above?

No trick question.

J.

 

[Peterlag]

What's your take on Romans 7?
Rom_5:12

5:12–21 Paul sets out to show how one man’s death can provide salvation for many. To prove his point, he uses Adam to establish the principle that it is possible for one man’s actions to inexorably affect many other people. - MSB

The passage Rom_5:12-21 is the backbone for teaching "original sin" since Augustine, 5th century. Such doctrine maintains that vs 12-21 is limited to physical death only.

Paul's main point is not about Adam, but Jesus, and what all is accomplished in his death. Paul's subject is still "Justification by Faith."

Therefore -- Paul is concluding that justification is by by the system of grace-faith only and give one last great proof.

just as through one man -- The "one man" is of course Adam, who along with Eve was responsible of introducing sin into the world (Gen_3:1-7).
Paul assumes that his readers know the tragic story of the fall of Adam and Eve.

sin entered the world, -- The word for “sin” is ἁμαρτία (hamartia), which in this case refers not to a specific act but to the principle of disobeying God's command.

“The world” (as in Joh_3:16) is the world of mankind, the sphere of human beings; sin had already entered the world of angels through the sin of Satan (1Jn_3:8). - CPNIV

The significance that Paul ascribes to this act, and the parallel that he draws between Adam’s sin and Christ’s act of obedience on the cross, makes clear that Paul views Adam and his sin in the Garden of Eden as historical fact. - NLTSB

and death through sin, -- Death = separation. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body, Jas_2:26 ; and spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God, Isa_59:2.

death Refers to the loss of immortality, which includes physical and spiritual death (Gen_3:22-24)... his sin introduced mortality. This mortality, in Paul’s view, spread to the entire human race (see 1Co_15:21-22). According to Paul, death will be the final enemy defeated by God (1Co_15:26). - FSB

Death in these verses most likely denotes both physical death and spiritual death together (Paul often connects the two). - ESVSB

Death -- Does death in vs. 12 means "spiritual death"? (we know that physical death didn't end with Moses, see Rom_5:14; [However Paul's point is simply that there was a "law" then that existed before the "Law of Moses" for men were separated from God by their sins even before Moses' Law. 1Jn_3:8]

While Adam's sin separated him from God (Gen_3:8-10; Isa_59:2) the very day he sinned (Gen_2:15-16) and resulted in spiritual separation (spiritual death), it was Adam's exclusion from the Garden and his access to the "tree of life" that brought him and all mankind physical death (Gen_3:22-23), a consequence of his sin.

death -- The parallel between this verse and Rom_5:18 suggests that “death” refers mainly to spiritual death, or “condemnation”—although physical death, at least in its painful side, may be included as well. - NIVZSB

Death here may be taken in its full latitude, for temporal, spiritual, and eternal death. - Poole [1Co_15:22]

By “death” in Gen_2:17; Gen_3:19 physical death is meant, but in Rom_5:17, Rom_5:21 eternal death is Paul’s idea and that lurks constantly behind physical death with Paul. - RWP

Death has 3 distinct manifestations: 1) spiritual death or separation from God (cf. Eph_1:1-2; Eph_4:18); 2) physical death (Heb_9:27); and 3) eternal death (also called the second death), which includes not only eternal separation from God, but eternal torment in the lake of fire (Rev_20:11-15). - MSB

death by sin -- In the case of Man. Scripture nowhere says that death in animals is due to human sin. - CBSC

and thus death [separation, wg] spread to all men, because all sinned -- Again asserting Paul's message from chapters 1 & 2 that all have sinned (Rom_3:10-12; Rom_3:23), and thus all men have become separated from God. Isa_59:2.

The word translated men is the Greek word anthrōpos, which in the plural can mean either “people” of both sexes or “men,” depending on the context. It is translated “men” here (and in Rom_5:18) to show the connection with “man” (anthrōpos, singular), referring to Christ. - ESVSB

Little children and infants die physically not because they are sinners, but because we are without access to "the tree of life" from which mankind was cut off because of Adam's sin. Gen_3:22-24. [Eze_18:20]

That infants and children are born "in sin" has been taught since the Reformation by Anabaptist writers and widely accepted within the Wesleyan tradition. However, there is no doctrine of "original sin" taught in 5:12-21. No child is actually conceived and born cursed with the "guilt" of Adam's sin. The only consequence of Adam's sin anyone suffers is that we will die physically, and will again have access to the "tree of life" in heaven. (Eze_18:20-21; Rev_2:7; Rev_22:14).

[Those holding to "original sin" would argue that since infants die, this is proof they are "sinners." See Barnes response in Rom_5:14.]

for that all sinned -- the aorist. St Paul refers to the First Sin, to the guilt of the Representative of the race. A close parallel, in contrast, is 2Co_5:15, where lit. “since One died for all, therefore they all died;” i.e. ideally, in their Divine Representative. See too 1Co_15:21, where our death in Adam is spoken of just as our sin in Adam here. - CBSC

Here we should have expected the apostle to finish his sentence, in some such way as this: "Even so, by one man righteousness has entered into the world, and life by righteousness." But, instead of this, we have a digression, extending to five verses, to illustrate the important statement of Rom_5:12; and it is only at Rom_5:18 that the comparison is resumed and finished. - JFB

Note The dash "— " at the end of Rom_5:12 in the NIV is to show a break in Paul's thought. In vs. 13-14 "He turns aside from his main argument to deal with a related matter." - NIVZSB

The Two Adams Contrasted [-Luscombe]
Rom_5:12-21
First Adam
Second Adam
Sin entered - 12
Salvation - 15
Death to all men - 12
Free gift - 15
Many died - 15
Grace for many - 15
Condemnation - 16
Justification - 16
Judgment - 18
Life - 18
Disobedience - 19
Obedience - 19
Law - 20
Grace - 20
Sin - death - 21
Righteousness - eternal life - 21
IS ADAM (MAN)
IS CHRIST

And the above?

No trick question.

J.

I have had a number of Christians tell me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

 

[Johann]

I have had a number of Christians tell me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

Thank you, brother. I’ve noticed some shifts in how core doctrines are defined, and it’s concerning. I also wasn't aware that the doctrine of "original sin" had its roots with the Early Church Fathers (ECFs).

Could you help clarify this briefly?

Rom 5:12 Death Came through Adam but Life Comes through Christ
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account (+) when there [Here “when” is supplied as a component of the participle (“is”) which is understood as temporal] is no law.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass [Literally “but not like the trespass so also the gift”] , for if by the trespass of the one, the many died, by much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, multiply to the many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift (+) is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one (+) sin(+) led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, (+) led to justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one (+) man, death reigned through the one (+) man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass (+) came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed (+) came justification of life to all people.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance,
Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thanks.

Johann.

 

[TomL]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, not saying that you're right or wrong here, but consider this. instead of a Face to Face, consider the Equal Share of oneself in Ordinal designation in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK. which is the H259 ECHAD/(one), just as Genesis 1:1 and Deuteronomy 6:4 clearly states.

and this Equal share of the ECHAD is clearly expressed in Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" and "WITH" indicate the same one person just First and Last, alpha and omega, beginning and end, and root and offspring.

consider it please. thanks in advance.

101G

Um One sends, the other is sent

One who became man, one who did not

Not two copies one oneself

 

[praise_yeshua]

How is the REV plagiarism? I don't understand how your mind thinks.

Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's ideas, words, or work and presenting them as your own without giving credit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you, brother. I’ve noticed some shifts in how core doctrines are defined, and it’s concerning. I also wasn't aware that the doctrine of "original sin" had its roots with the Early Church Fathers (ECFs).

Could you help clarify this briefly?

Rom 5:12 Death Came through Adam but Life Comes through Christ
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account (+) when there [Here “when” is supplied as a component of the participle (“is”) which is understood as temporal] is no law.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass [Literally “but not like the trespass so also the gift”] , for if by the trespass of the one, the many died, by much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, multiply to the many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift (+) is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one (+) sin(+) led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, (+) led to justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one (+) man, death reigned through the one (+) man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass (+) came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed (+) came justification of life to all people.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance,
Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thanks.

Johann.

The doctrine of "Original sin" was developed with the "Early Church Fathers"? The "Early Church Fathers" are often blamed because they are "low hanging fruit".

He has a very poor theological knowledge.

 

[Peterlag]

Plagiarism is the act of taking someone else's ideas, words, or work and presenting them as your own without giving credit.

I never said it was my own. I said... "This is all the data I could find on John 1:1. Enjoy..."

 

[Peterlag]

Thank you, brother. I’ve noticed some shifts in how core doctrines are defined, and it’s concerning. I also wasn't aware that the doctrine of "original sin" had its roots with the Early Church Fathers (ECFs).

Could you help clarify this briefly?

Rom 5:12 Death Came through Adam but Life Comes through Christ
Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.
Rom 5:13 For until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account (+) when there [Here “when” is supplied as a component of the participle (“is”) which is understood as temporal] is no law.
Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come.
Rom 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass [Literally “but not like the trespass so also the gift”] , for if by the trespass of the one, the many died, by much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, multiply to the many.
Rom 5:16 And the gift (+) is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one (+) sin(+) led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, (+) led to justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the trespass of the one (+) man, death reigned through the one (+) man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass (+) came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed (+) came justification of life to all people.
Rom 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance,
Rom 5:21 so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thanks.

Johann.

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have he spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ.The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin,live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. This idea that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual is believed by most because the churches teach that Christians still have a sin nature. They do not. It's destroyed after the spirit of Christ has come upon the Christian. It seems like the whole Christian world teaches that the spirit follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I never said it was my own. I said... "This is all the data I could find on John 1:1. Enjoy..."

Why should I use the REV?

 

[101G]

@Johann
TomL said:
And the One lord of

Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (echad YHWH -Hebrew)

Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (heis Kyrios)

is Jesus according to

1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord (heis Kyrios) Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Johann SAID, Irrefutable.

J.

IF Irrefutable, ONE QUESTION. " Who made all things?". John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
NOW THIS,
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

is the Person in John 1:1 the same one person in Isaiah 44:24? remember before you answer, the Person in Isaiah 44:24 said he was "ALONE", and by himself. please note, "ALONE" means, having no one else present. meaning there was no one else to go through. your answer please.

101G.
P.S. this not a right or wrong question, but to arrest your attention.

 

[Johann]

The doctrine of "Original sin" was developed with the "Early Church Fathers"? The "Early Church Fathers" are often blamed because they are "low hanging fruit".

He has a very poor theological knowledge.

Who has a poor theological knowledge-? @Peterlag?

Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130–202 AD)
View on Original Sin: Irenaeus emphasized Adam's fall as humanity's introduction to sin and mortality but did not articulate a doctrine of inherited guilt.
Transmission: He suggested that humanity inherits a weakened nature due to Adam’s disobedience, making people inclined to sin. However, each individual remains responsible for their own sins.
Key Works: Against Heresies—Irenaeus stresses that Adam's disobedience was corrected through Christ's obedience, underscoring the concept of recapitulation (Christ as the new Adam), rather than hereditary guilt.

2. Tertullian (c. 155–240 AD)
View on Original Sin: Tertullian taught that the human soul is tainted by Adam’s sin, describing the transmission as a “seminal” principle, though he did not insist on a strict guilt inheritance.
Transmission: His concept of tradux animae (soul transfusion) implies that both body and soul are transmitted by parents, hence carrying Adam's sinful nature.
Key Works: On the Soul—where he theorizes that original sin is passed through human generation, marking a proto-view of inherited sinfulness.

3. Origen of Alexandria (c. 184–253 AD)
View on Original Sin: Origen believed that sin affects all of humanity due to Adam, yet each soul has pre-existence and retains moral responsibility.
Transmission: He held that every soul is affected by Adam's sin but is born free to make choices. He did not adopt a concept of guilt transmitted from Adam.
Key Works: On First Principles—Origen posits that souls inherit a weakened state but remain individually responsible for their actions, rejecting hereditary guilt.

4. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 200–258 AD)
View on Original Sin: Cyprian believed that all are born with a corrupt nature, hence his advocacy for infant baptism, not because of guilt per se but to cleanse the inherited sinful condition.
Transmission: Cyprian implied a need for baptism to renew the individual from Adam's fallen nature, though without explicit language on guilt.
Key Works: Letter to Fidus—Cyprian argues for the practice of baptizing infants to cleanse them from the “sin of Adam.”

5. Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373 AD)
View on Original Sin: Athanasius did not directly discuss original sin as inherited guilt but emphasized humanity’s corrupted nature and mortality as consequences of the Fall.
Transmission: He believed that through Adam, humanity became subject to corruption and death, which Christ's incarnation and resurrection aimed to restore.
Key Works: On the Incarnation—he asserts that Christ’s work restores the image of God, countering the mortality introduced by Adam’s sin.

6. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335–395 AD)
View on Original Sin: Gregory saw Adam’s sin as introducing mortality and a tendency toward sin, viewing original sin more as a corrupted state than inherited guilt.
Transmission: He argued that humanity inherited a mortal condition from Adam, which predisposes people to sin rather than transmitting specific guilt.
Key Works: The Great Catechism—Gregory emphasizes that Adam’s fall impacts human nature primarily by inclining it toward sin and death, with each individual’s responsibility upheld.

7. John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)
View on Original Sin: Chrysostom rejected the notion that Adam’s guilt is transferred to all humans, focusing instead on mortality and corruption inherited through Adam’s sin.
Transmission: He believed in an inherited corruption affecting human nature but maintained that each person sins by their own choice, rejecting inherited guilt.
Key Works: Homilies on Romans—where Chrysostom interprets Romans 5 as teaching death and a sinful tendency rather than guilt passed from Adam to all.

8. Augustine of Hippo (354–430 AD)
View on Original Sin: Augustine systematized the doctrine, asserting that Adam’s sin imparted both a sinful nature and guilt to all humans. His view laid the foundation for Western Christianity’s understanding of original sin.
Transmission: Augustine believed original sin, both guilt and sinful nature, is transmitted through human procreation, requiring baptism for salvation.
Key Works: Confessions, On Original Sin, City of God—where he articulates a view that humanity inherits Adam's guilt and corruption, centralizing baptism as necessary for cleansing original sin.
Summary

Before Augustine, the Church Fathers generally agreed that Adam’s sin introduced a condition of mortality, corruption, and an inclination to sin. However, most, including Irenaeus, Origen, and Chrysostom, did not articulate the concept of inherited guilt. Instead, they emphasized a transmission of weakened or corrupted nature rather than individual guilt. Augustine’s articulation marked a distinct development, suggesting that both guilt and a sinful nature are inherited, which became foundational in Western Christianity's doctrinal structure.

What do you think, @praise_yeshua? Is the doctrine of original sin actually unbiblical? I’ve come across a lengthy argument claiming it doesn't have a basis in Scripture.

J.

 

[Johann]

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have he spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ.The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin,live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. This idea that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual is believed by most because the churches teach that Christians still have a sin nature. They do not. It's destroyed after the spirit of Christ has come upon the Christian. It seems like the whole Christian world teaches that the spirit follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.

Thank you, brother. There are a few points I might see differently, but I don’t want to overwhelm you, especially with others joining in.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus.

J.