Data on John 1:1
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
I was going to point out the Peterlag was not speaking well (or scholarly) when he used the pronunciation Jehovah. (Of course who cannot enjoy the alliteration in Jehovah Jireh?) But everyone was using that one. Of course it may appear when quoting someone else. Oh well. My 2 cents.
Johann
Well-known member
Should be YHWH.
Yud (י)
Hey (ה)
Vav (ו)
Hey (ה)
Each letter carries significance, and the pronunciation was traditionally unspoken out of reverence, often replaced with Adonai (meaning "Lord") in reading. This name reflects God's eternal and self-existing nature, derived from the Hebrew root for "to be" (הָיָה).
J.
They will not address it
And the One lord of
Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (echad YHWH -Hebrew)
Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (heis Kyrios)
is Jesus according to
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord (heis Kyrios) Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Johann
Well-known member
I concur-wonder why echad and not yachid is used in the Shema?
The choice of echad (אֶחָד) over yachid (יָחִיד) in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) emphasizes the concept of unity rather than singularity. Echad conveys a sense of a unified oneness that allows for plurality within that oneness, such as the diverse aspects of God or the community of Israel. In contrast, yachid suggests an absolute singularity or isolation. This distinction highlights the complexity of God's nature while affirming His singular authority and unity.
J.
Yep Echad is used here
Genesis 2:24 (KJV 1900) — 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
101G
Well-known member
well if the Lord Jesus is your Jehovah, then he's the Father, else you have two Gods, and that's polytheism by definition.
if he is .... according to you the "Preincarnate Jesus" appears as YHWH, then he is YHWH or an IMPOSTOR.
are you sure? listen, John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." THAT TERM "WITH" make you think it's two persons in the verse ... correct, the Word and God, right...... well ERROR. Listen and Learn, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." THAT TERM "WITH" make you think it's two persons in the verse AGAIN ... correct ...... the first is one person, and the Last another person correct? before you answer, listen, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." I, I, I, I, ... "ALSO" and "also" means, in addition; too. understand NOW? in being the First he is in, in, in, ADDITION to being the First he is also the LAST. the First is the Last the same one Person as with John 1:1.... the Word "WITH" God and was God. it's the same one PERSON. just as the Lord Jesus is the I AM of the OT, same one Person. the only difference in the NT is that he Jesus is the "Diversity" or the ECHAD of his OWN-Self shared equally in flesh. BINGO.
101G.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The REV is plagiarism.
Johann
Well-known member
The structure of John 1:1 in Greek is pivotal in understanding the relationship between Logos (the Word) and Theos (God). The verse is broken into three distinct clauses, each with unique grammatical elements that convey both unity and distinction.
Clause 1: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος (En archē ēn ho Logos)
Translation: "In the beginning was the Word."
Grammar: The verb ἦν (ēn) is in the imperfect tense, indicating continuous existence. This tense shows that the Word was already existing from the beginning, implying eternality. Ἐν ἀρχῇ (in the beginning) mirrors Genesis 1:1, linking the Word’s existence to the creation narrative.
Clause 2: καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν (kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon)
Translation: "And the Word was with God."
Grammar: The preposition πρὸς (pros) here signifies more than mere proximity; it implies a personal, face-to-face relationship, often translated as "toward" or "in relation to." The use of pros alongside the accusative case (τὸν Θεόν) reveals that the Word (Logos) and God (Theon) are in a relationship, each as a distinct entity. This relationship implies the coexistence of two persons within the Godhead—distinct yet unified in purpose and essence.
Clause 3: καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος (kai Theos ēn ho Logos)
Translation: "And the Word was God."
Grammar: Here, Theos (God) is in the predicate nominative position, without the article. In Greek, this construction emphasizes the nature or quality of the subject (ho Logos), meaning "the Word was fully divine" or "the Word was by nature God." This phrasing highlights the deity of the Word without suggesting that the Word and God (the Father) are the same person; rather, the Word shares the divine essence of God while maintaining distinct personhood.
These grammatical structures in John 1:1 point to the complex unity of the Word with God—distinct in person yet one in divine nature.
2. Isaiah 41:4 and Isaiah 48:12 -
Isaiah 41:4 - Hebrew: מִי־פָעַל וְעָשָׂה קֹרֵא הַדֹּרוֹת מֵרֹאשׁ אֲנִי יְהוָה רִאשׁוֹן וְאֶת־אַחֲרוֹנִים אֲנִי־הוּא (Mi-fa’al ve’asa koreh ha’dorot me’rosh ani YHWH rishon ve’et acharonim ani hu)
Translation: "Who has performed and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last; I am He."
Grammar: The phrase “וְאֶת־אַחֲרוֹנִים” (ve’et acharonim, "and with the last") uses et as a preposition often signifying accompaniment or association, which does not imply a separate person. Here, et expresses that God encompasses both the beginning and the end, uniting these temporal aspects within Himself. The syntax does not suggest a duality but instead indicates that God is sovereign over all time, embodying both the “first” and “last.”
Isaiah 48:12 - Hebrew: שְׁמַע אֵלַי יַעֲקֹב וְיִשְׂרָאֵל מְקוֹרָאִי אֲנִי הוּא אֲנִי רִאשׁוֹן אַף אֲנִי אַחֲרוֹן (Shema elai Ya’akov ve’Yisrael mikorai ani hu ani rishon af ani acharon)
Translation: "Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel, My called: I am He, I am the first, I also am the last."
Grammar: In this verse, אַף (af) is used, translated here as “also” or “even.” The use of af connects "first" and "last" as descriptions of God’s continuous and all-encompassing nature. The emphasis is on the continuity and completeness of God's existence, not on separate identities or persons. This syntax reinforces that God is singularly present as both “first” and “last,” encompassing all time without division.
Hebrew Echad and Greek Pros in Relation to Divine Unity and Distinction
Echad (אֶחָד) - Hebrew Concept of Unified Diversity
In Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one (echad)," the word echad denotes a unity that can contain plurality. This concept is comparable to the phrase "one flesh" (basar echad) in Genesis 2:24, where two individuals, Adam and Eve, form a united whole in marriage. This unity-in-diversity concept aligns with the New Testament revelation of God as three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) sharing one divine essence, without contradiction to God’s oneness.
Greek Pros (πρὸς) in John 1:1
As discussed, pros conveys the distinct relationship between the Word and God in John 1:1. This term does not mean "within" or "the same as" but implies personal interaction, face-to-face. The use of pros supports the understanding that while the Word and God share the same divine essence, they interact as distinct persons within the Godhead.
4. A Unified Godhead with Distinction in Persons
Through a careful examination of Greek and Hebrew syntax:
John 1:1 affirms that the Word (Logos) was not only divine in essence (Theos) but was with (pros) God, indicating an intimate but distinct relationship.
Isaiah 41:4 and 48:12 use Hebrew expressions to communicate that God is “first and last,” emphasizing His eternal nature rather than introducing separate identities within the Godhead.
Thus, the biblical texts, when studied in their original languages, consistently point to a God who is one in essence (echad) yet exists in relational distinction as revealed in the New Testament. The term pros in John 1:1 shows a distinction in persons without compromising divine unity, in line with the doctrine of the Trinity: one God, three persons, co-equal and co-eternal.
J.
Peterlag
Well-known member
How is the REV plagiarism? I don't understand how your mind thinks.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I don't see your link to the Lord Christ Jesus to the Lord God of the Old Testament. I write about the Lord Christ and you tell me I'm wrong. Then you tell me he's the same as the Lord God in the Old Testament. I disagree.
Peterlag
Well-known member
All men are born with a sin nature, but not Christians.
Romans 5:12,14
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Peterlag
Well-known member
It's not an excuse but this is why I don't respond to you that much because you attack and accuse.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I agree. You too.
Another excuse
Mark 12:29 one lord - heis kurios
Mark 12:29 (KJV 1900) — 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: (heis kurios)
1 Corinthians 8:6 (LEB) — 6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we are for him, and there is one Lord, (heis kurios) Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we are through him.
The one lord of the New Testament version of the shema is Jesus
As God in his pre-human state
John 1:1 (LEB) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He certainly was lord
Johann
Well-known member
Another verse--
Tit 2:13 looking forward to the blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us, in order that he might redeem us from all lawlessness and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good deeds.
To parse the phrase "Jesus our great God and Savior," we need to examine both its grammatical structure and the implications of its terminology, particularly in the context of scriptural references and theological significance. The phrase is often derived from Titus 2:13 (NKJV), which states, "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
Grammatical Parsing
Subject:
"Jesus Christ" is the subject of the sentence, where "Jesus" is the proper noun referring to the person of Jesus of Nazareth, and "Christ" (Χριστός, Christos) denotes his messianic role.
Modifiers:
"Our" is a possessive pronoun, indicating a personal relationship and belonging to the speaker and the audience.
"Great" is an adjective that enhances "God," indicating not just divinity but an exalted status.
Compound Predicate:
"God" (Θεός, Theos) is a noun in the nominative case, affirming Jesus' divine nature.
"Savior" (Σωτήρ, Sōtēr) is also a noun in the nominative case, affirming his role in salvation. The conjunction "and" (καὶ, kai) connects the two titles, suggesting that they refer to the same person, Jesus.
Theological Implications
In this phrase, particularly in the context of Titus 2:13, the dual titles "God and Savior" emphasize the fullness of the divinity of Jesus Christ. Here are some theological reflections regarding the implications:
Divinity of Jesus:
The title "God" clearly asserts the divine nature of Jesus. In the Greek, the definite article ("the") in "the great God and Savior" suggests that both titles apply to Jesus, affirming his status as fully divine.
Soteriology:
The term "Savior" shows Jesus' role in the salvation of humanity, aligning him with the traditional Jewish understanding of God as the sole Savior (Isaiah 43:11). By ascribing this title to Jesus, the text equates his saving work with that of God.
Christological Doctrine:
The combined use of "God and Savior" indicates a Christological assertion that Jesus is both God and the instrument of salvation, reinforcing the doctrine of the Trinity, where Jesus is recognized as the second person of the Godhead.
Is Jesus God?
The assertion that "Jesus is God" is rooted in multiple scriptural references and theological doctrines:
John 1:1 (NKJV):
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
The "Word" (Λόγος, Logos) is understood as Jesus, affirming his divinity.
Colossians 2:9 (NKJV):
"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
This verse emphasizes that the fullness of God's nature resides in Christ, confirming his identity as God.
Hebrews 1:3 (NKJV):
"Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person..."
Here, Jesus is described as the exact representation of God's nature.
Revelation 1:8 (NKJV):
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
Jesus identifies himself with divine titles, indicating his eternal nature.
Conclusion
The parsing of the phrase "Jesus our great God and Savior" illustrates a clear grammatical structure affirming Jesus’ dual role as both God and Savior. This assertion is consistent with scriptural teaching and supports the theological understanding that Jesus is indeed God, as evidenced by various biblical texts that affirm his divinity and salvific role. Through these analyses, one can affirm that in the context of Christian doctrine, Jesus is recognized as fully God and fully Savior.
Great God and our Saviour -- Strict grammar would apply both God and Saviour to Jesus Christ.
God is Savior in Tit_1:3, Tit_2:10, Tit_3:4
Christ is Savior in Tit_1:4, Tit_3:6; cf. 2Pe_1:1.
J.
Yep Sharp's rule shows Jesus is both God and savior
The Granville Sharp Rule states, “When the copulative kai connects two nouns of the same case, [viz. nouns (either substantive or adjective, or participles) of personal description, respecting office, dignity, affinity, or connexion, and attributes, properties, or qualities, good or ill], if the article ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle” (Remarks on the Uses of the Definitive Article, 3). In simpler terms, the Granville Sharp Rule says that when two singular common nouns are used to describe a person, and those two nouns are joined by an additive conjunction, and the definite article precedes the first noun but not the second, then both nouns refer to the same person. This principle of semantics holds true in all languages.
Another example of Sharp's rule
2 Peter 1:1 (LEB) — 1 Simeon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith equal in value to ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Compare with
2Peter 1:11
2 Peter 1:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Also 2 Pe 3:18 Lord and Saviour
The Same Peter ends with a doxology to Jesus
2 Peter 3:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.
